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Thread: I dont understand

  1. #1
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    I dont understand

    I dont understand why everyone are freaks about purely going for stam. Every tank i see and every person that looks for tanks only care about stam. Why not go for avoidence, even though there are diminishing returns

  2. #2
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    dodge/stam gems are fine if the socket bonus is +6 stam or more.
    its when people gem parry/stam that is the issue.

    because of diminishing returns if you gem for nothing other then avoidance the gear upgrades become.. less then stellar, so you have less stam.. and little to no extra avoidance then other tanks.

    also its pretty trendy that big hits are magical, and no matter how much avoidance you have.. it doesnt help against spell damage

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proculeius View Post
    I dont understand why everyone are freaks about purely going for stam. Every tank i see and every person that looks for tanks only care about stam. Why not go for avoidence, even though there are diminishing returns
    I'm not a freak, it's a sensible choice: If you're progress raiding, the encounters to beat at this moment have large unavoidable damage. Moments where your avoidance does nothing. Stamina helps keep you alive in those places.

  4. #4
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    Stam has become THE most important stat for a tank if you have gone to the lower echelons of Ulduar.
    Bosses down there hit like a truck so the healers have to keep spamming heals on you wether you need them or not. I'm talking about two shotting a tank. Within 2 seconds. This doesn't leave too much reaction time.
    Aaaand ther is magical damage and physical dots and other stuff that can't be avoided or mitigated by armor or blocking.
    Sitting at 55%+ mitigation is fine as long as you maintain over 35k life unbuffed. That should put you over 40k life buffed which still won't let you survive two hits but leaves a nice lead for the healers to get you above 30k life within a second.
    Avoid is only there to let them catch up.

    I'll give you a couple of figures for Onyxia/10(curtesy of WoWWiki). Scale that for 25 mans and ToC25/h:


    Onyxia melees for about 12-15,000 on plate. Onyxia is tauntable.
    • Flame Breath — Two second cast, 45 yard frontal cone. About 20,000 damage unresisted.
    • Cleave — 100% Weapon damage cleave in her frontal arc. Cast often.
    • Wing Buffet — ~15,000 physical damage in a 20 yard frontal cone. Ignores armour.
    Onyxia does her best to keep healers from healing in phase 3. You'd be surprised how often you will have to survive with minimal heal due to various reasons.

    Knowing that take a look at Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft
    Sucks, doesn't it?

    Going stam heavy for heroics and Naxx is ridiculous, tho.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  5. #5
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    I am starting to get a fair amount of unbuffed HP right now, I wouldnt dream of gemming avoidance for the two the reasons mentioned above and for the fact that mana is not an issue for healers in the game right now.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mačl View Post
    Knowing that take a look at Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft
    Sucks, doesn't it?
    Woooaaaa wait a second here. I think Fervor of the Frostborn - Item - World of Warcraft is an incredibly strong trinket and when used at the right moments outperforms the brewfest stamina trinket. You can get 7k extra armor in times when you most need it. Don't forget most damage is predictable and especially with big hits, the extra armor will prevent more damage then the extra stamina.

    Currently raidbuffed I have about 31k armor: 70.14% physical damage reduction. With 7k more armor I would be at 38k armor: 73.97% physical damage reduction.

    Well now, when would I die? Scary are the impale hits from Gormok which can go over 30k, they are also easy to predict. If I would get hit for 30k without the trinket, it would be about 26 with the trinket and 5 stacks: the on use of the trinket helps me stay alive more then a 170 stamina trinket would have.
    Last edited by orcstar; 09-24-2009 at 03:23 AM.

  7. #7
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    Too bad that even if it saves you once, after the effects run out you will be gibbed the next time since it aint up.

    Relying on a clicky or a proc is bad. Flat stamina wins on everything. If you really want armor, the Triumph trinket is a OK choice.
    Worlde - Prot Paladin
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  8. #8
    Well he got a point in that it essentially gives you another emergency timer. The relative value depends largely on the fight you're looking at, so overrating it is bad ofc. But for itself this is a powerful thing, a bit like a controllable Black Heart (though there's better ones for that).

    Avoidance clickies are so/so. Mitigation/HP clickies can be powerful so they're big enough, since they give you another shot at surviving something which would otherwise kill you.
    It's usually safe to assume that so your healers aren't asleep, the "normal" damage in a fight is healable. It's the stacked specials or bad moments which kills you, anyways.
    SQUEAK.
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  9. #9
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    Yep, I also don't like clicky trinkets. It's a matter of relyability. Stuff like this is either never used or on cooldown.

    Avoid trinkets are teh joke. Esp trinkets that give you 300 avoid. For kicks I used one while letting tank points do its math and I have to say, I was quite a bit underwhelmed.

    Procs are never there when you need them. If they last long enough and have a nice mitigation effect then they might save you like shield block. But you can't plan for them in most cases.

    I would also rather pick up the badge trinket for mitigation.

    And if you say you are sitting at 31k armor raidbuffed then I guess your health has already reached the point where you survive a direct unblocked hit with enough life so the healers spam you back up in the alotted time.

    Mitigation is king yes, but even Onyxia has one attack that's not mitigated whatsoever and nobody bothers with fire resists on top of an aura so I'd say her flame stuff also has a high chance to reach you inmitigatedly.

    A mitigation on use trinket has its uses, but it is a specific tool for a specific job and we are talking about the general situation.

    Being a healer is no fun atm.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mačl View Post
    Avoid trinkets are teh joke. Esp trinkets that give you 300 avoid. For kicks I used one while letting tank points do its math and I have to say, I was quite a bit underwhelmed.
    Avoidance clickies can be very powerfull: in situations where strings of hits are bad that's where you use them: it often helps me to get rid of kologarns stacking debuff and the stacking debuff of auriaya's cats.

    Use the right tool for the right job, there is no "best tankset" for all bosses. Every boss needs a new decission on what works best.
    (ofcourse you can conquer all in one set if you outgear things)

  11. #11
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    dodge doesnt do much against magic damage, neither does parry.

    Stam enables you to stomach the punch and avoidance enables you to keep the punches seperated imo.
    Belgariad: EU : Lightnings Blade. Once a Tank. Always a Tank.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mačl View Post
    Being a healer is no fun atm.
    Says who? I have a ball whether I'm tanking or healing. It's the dps role that sends me to sleep.

  13. #13
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    ...all my DPSers never reached max level.

    When I say healing is no fun ATM it comes from having to be on the edge, spamming heals but keeping the big nukes on CD handy for whenever they are necessary.
    It is fun, but very exhausting.

    Mind you, I'm not talking about Naxx.

    SIMON DE MONTFORT, EARL OF LEICESTER
    pioneer of representative government who was
    killed in the Battle of Evesham on 4 August 1265.


  14. #14
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    i dont see it, time and time again ive seen "Main tainks" who stack stam like theres no other stat get punted from stuns because they take alot of unvoidable damage but when they come out of the stun they get hit again cuz of lack of avoidence where i tend to dodge/parry or block majority of it. Also i tend to stack up a bit of defense(elixir of def instead of stoneblood and a few sockets and enchants instead of stam for enchants) esp for fights like ice howl and anub where they stun often because of the increased chance to be missed really help alot and ive seen it save me countless times when healers are dead or whatever may be the case and even i get hit like a truck with the stun the odds of me not dodging/parrying/being missed or blocking a good chunk of damage are very small, i have never seen myself not dodge or parry after being stunned.

    as far as magic being a paladin i dont worry about it much since i have alot of reduced to magical damage and if is alot of damage say like a casted spell i can time a holy light with theirs to reduce the blow to me.
    Last edited by Proculeius; 09-24-2009 at 12:19 PM.

  15. #15
    I did a pug VoA25 the other day after getting the 2nd brewfest trinket, and the other tank, a warrior in gear about the same as mine, was laughing at me for stacking so much stamina. Then I looked at his health, it was 10k less than mine. And after he pulled the first mob, I pulled agro almost immediately and for the rest of the run he couldnt hold the mobs off me.

    I think that many people may say that stam stacking is stupid, go for more avoidance or gem for a balance. But in my opinion, you lose more than you gain. There are few fights where a stam heavy tank will be less ideal than an avoidance tank. And I'd rather not approach the situation of dodging lots of hits in a row or right at the pull and be rage starved at a critical point. Not to mention the stress on the healers trying to heal you thru 5 dodges and then 3 big hits.

    To me, being a tank is all about making things as easy for the healers and dps. Getting rage starved doesn't help the dps. Taking very spikey damage doesn't help the healers. But if you're taking alot of damage and it's more predictable, the healers can get used to it and adjust long term, and being able to keep infinite rage will give you the threat lead that your DPS need to go all out. Not to mention the increased DPS you contribute.
    "Ultimately, making the blanket statement '25m content is harder, period' is at best an overstatement and at worst ignorant drivel." Garrek

  16. #16
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    As you get into harder content, it will make a lot more sense to you. On the other hand, if you only ever do normal modes, it probably won't.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    Avoidance clickies can be very powerfull: in situations where strings of hits are bad that's where you use them: it often helps me to get rid of kologarns stacking debuff and the stacking debuff of auriaya's cats.

    Use the right tool for the right job, there is no "best tankset" for all bosses. Every boss needs a new decission on what works best.
    (ofcourse you can conquer all in one set if you outgear things)
    Realistically with avoidance clickies you're getting ~5% after DR. That's pretty underwhelming; to me that's a 'feel good' on-use. It's hardly like popping evasion or something.

    That said, I do use Fervor of the Frostborn for regular ToC, since even outside of stuns there's a lot of physical damage that can be avoided and I've easily met the EH minimums for each fight so I don't blindly stack stamina anymore.

    As for tanks who gem stamina, looking at a tank I raid with he's got 10 sockets. 200 dodge/parry rating after DRs is going to get you like 3.5% avoidance or you could have 300 stamina, which is 3k+ life (depending on talents, ect). Gems are less flexible than gear so it's just playing it safe to me.

    I'm actually pretty OCD about matching sockets so I actually don't stack stamina, but every red/yellow socket at this point has +15 stamina (it wasn't like this in naxx lol).

    As an aside, it seems that people hardly talk about EH minimums anymore, which leads to these extremist stamina or avoidance debates.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satrina View Post
    As you get into harder content, it will make a lot more sense to you. On the other hand, if you only ever do normal modes, it probably won't.
    I offtanked H TOC pretty recently and the guild that picked me up their tank died on ice howl on the first stun i picked it up at pretty much 100% and lived fine through out the rest of the fight no problems. by the end of that fight I had taken less damage then that tank who died 2/3 into the fight. He was a stam stacker.

    and i agree with you for saying tanking is all about making it easy for healers and dps. All healers i know say that i am one of the ezier tanks to heal that theyve run with. and since im a paladin i dont have to worry about having enough rage to threat.

  19. #19
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    Dunno, I always figured I'd just throw Exp/Stam in red slots, Def/Stam in yellows and full out pure stam in blues.

    But then again I'm not micro-tuning my gear for tanking the same way I do for dps.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proculeius View Post
    I offtanked H TOC pretty recently and the guild that picked me up their tank died on ice howl on the first stun i picked it up at pretty much 100% and lived fine through out the rest of the fight no problems. by the end of that fight I had taken less damage then that tank who died 2/3 into the fight. He was a stam stacker.

    and i agree with you for saying tanking is all about making it easy for healers and dps. All healers i know say that i am one of the ezier tanks to heal that theyve run with. and since im a paladin i dont have to worry about having enough rage to threat.
    You probably took less damage because you're a paladin (I'm guess he wasn't) and have AD. Icehowl's tank killing move is Ferocious butt (stun) followed by melee. Or even worse, Freezing breath (stun), butt, melee.

    Avoidance doesn't do anything at all in those cases (it also sounds like the first tank died to stun in which case the only thing he had to save him was his EH).

    Keep in mind that before 3.2.2 paladins had the best EH next to druids, which is why AD got nerfed in 3.2.2.

    Stamina is only one contribution to EH after all.

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