+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 30

Thread: No more SS>Revenge>Devastate weaved with shockwave

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,193

    No more SS>Revenge>Devastate weaved with shockwave

    All the buffs to devastate made me wonder: would it be a good tanking weapon now?

    So I managed to get my hands on Serilas, Blood Blade of Invar One-Arm - Item - World of Warcraft and put it to the test.

    The rotation used was: Devastate+heroic strike all the time, shield slam on swoard and board proc and revenge only at low rage.

    I got an easy 3100 dps where I formerly struggles for 2k dps. Is this now the death of the fast tanking weapons? The threat was out of the roof also.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,630
    I thought someone mathed it out and heroic strike with a fast weapon still out performed?

    I honestly haven't taken the time to figure it out myself, but if there's concrete work done (or has already been done), it would be cool to see.
    Xav
    Formerly Xavastrasz
    Quote Originally Posted by Rak View Post
    control+c control+v amirite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnuss View Post
    Hell no, its Xav, he is gonna type that bitch till his fingers fall off.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    I maintain Rawr.ProtWarr pretty regularly in terms of the combat modeling, so it should be quite possible to confirm many of the TPS/DPS theories with it. Regardless of if you use it for ranking gear for survival or whatnot, the combat and ability models should be fairly accurate.

    (And if not, I would love to know so I can alter stuff!)

    As for this question, even with the T9 2-set bonus and using Serilas, Devastate will not do more damage per execute than Shield Slam, Revenge, Concussion Blow, or Shockwave.

    Threat is a bit different. It is still considerably below Shield Slam, CB, and Shockwave on threat per execute as well, although it is higher than Revenge due to the bonus threat component even though the damage is very similar.

    So, in an optimal TPS rotation is could make sense to drop Revenge with a slow weapon, although the DPS will be roughly the same or lower if you do so.

    Interestingly enough, with a 'normal' roation a fast vs. slow weapon makes very little difference right now.

    My ideal ultimated rage TPS (without Vigilance) is showing as 7922 with Sorthalis and 7877 with Serilas. DPS was 3288 with Sorthalis and 3344 with Serilas.

    If I were to drop Revenge for Devastate with the Serilas, I would gain a bit of TPS and be slightly ahead at 7,953 TPS but drop slightly in DPS in the process.

    All in all, I doubt it's worth it considering the loss of 'tanking' stats on the Serilas and that a lot of the TPS/DPS is probably coming from the Expertise, Hit, and Agility rather than the change in weapon speed.

    With just weapon speed considered, for instance, going from a 1.6s weapon to a 2.0s weapon is a loss of 200-250 TPS and 70 DPS all other things being equal. However, as an increase in 0.4s on a 196.5 DPS weapon is 78.6 damage, it would seem very hard for Devastate to ever result in a net all-around increase.

    Taking this all into account, it would appear that the biggest gain you could get would be to use a fast DPS-oriented weapon. Something like Forsaken Bonecarver - Item - World of Warcraft would offer a better DPS and TPS increase than Serilas at 8068 TPS and 3346 DPS with a standard rotation. Even then, it's a pretty minor increase in TPS for the loss of survival stats. At the end of the day, your weapon DPS (ilevel) and attack power increases from Strength will likely scale your TPS/DPS much more than swapping to a Rogue weapon. (Or, simply swapping a single trinket for a Mjolnir Runestone would add up to 300 TPS and 200 DPS.)

    I also would never, ever drop Shockwave from your rotation as it is not able to be parried and thus has a much higher average damage than any ability we have, in addition to scaling extremely well. It is a bigger DPS increase than TPS increase, but still an increase in both over any other potentical GCD. CB is not a strong as it as able to be avoided, but it still scales exceptionally well.

    (Also, in case you are wondering, I am factoring in Deep Wounds as well. This is most advantageous for Shield Slam and Devastate threat with the T9 2-set bonus, due to the increased crit rate. Without the set bonus, it falls a bit further behind Revenge.)
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 09-23-2009 at 04:41 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    110
    You need to run the numbers at lower than 100% heroic strike ratio. At 90% heroic strikes, I was seeing 2.6 speed as better than 1.5 speed. At 50% heroic strikes, 2.6 is far superior.

    Edit: to be fair, 50% heroic strikes with a 2.6 speed weapon costs as much rage as 65% heroic strikes with a 1.5 speed weapon with similar overall threat so the numbers are closer than they seem.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    At a 90% rate it is the following figures:

    Normal Rotation
    Sorthalis: 7949 TPS, 3231 DPS
    Serilas: 7925 TPS, 3289 DPS
    Bonecarver: 8062 TPS, 3273 DPS

    Cutting out Revenge for Devastate
    Sorthalis: 8066 TPS, 3166 DPS
    Serilas: 8112 TPS, 3259 DPS
    Bonecarver: 8173 TPS, 3206 DPS

    Certainly, with the apparently higher AP scaling of Devastate post-3.2 it could be arguable to drop Revenge for TPS gains as I mentioned before, but it is still a DPS loss even with the 2-set T9 bonus. The other positive to this is that it would free up two points in Improved Revenge in basically any spec.

    I don't see any signifcant benefit to using a slower weapon, realistically speaking. The Bonecarver at 90% Heroic Strike rate is notably ahead in TPS compared to Serilas.

    And, again, I doubt the survival loss from swapping to a DPS weapon is very much worth what amounts to no more than ~100 or less TPS increase...at least not when you can swap other slots for larger gains if that is your goal. (Swapping to a DPS neck, ring, etc. can have gains of upwards of 200 TPS per slot.)

    If you are getting 50% Heroic Strike rates, sure. You'd be looking at maybe 200 TPS increase using a slow weapon with Devastate instead of Revenge rotation, which is still quite small in the grand scheme of things. That said, 50% HS rate is, IMO, unrealistically low for any fight where TPS will matter that significantly.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 09-23-2009 at 05:08 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    55
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    I maintain Rawr.ProtWarr pretty regularly in terms of the combat modeling, so it should be quite possible to confirm many of the TPS/DPS theories with it. Regardless of if you use it for ranking gear for survival or whatnot, the combat and ability models should be fairly accurate.

    (And if not, I would love to know so I can alter stuff!)

    As for this question, even with the T9 2-set bonus and using Serilas, Devastate will not do more damage per execute than Shield Slam, Revenge, Concussion Blow, or Shockwave.

    Threat is a bit different. It is still considerably below Shield Slam, CB, and Shockwave on threat per execute as well, although it is higher than Revenge due to the bonus threat component even though the damage is very similar.
    I saw math supporting Deva does more threat than CB and SW if you wield a 2.6 blade and got over 4.4k AP. That is acquired without too much trouble raidbuffed. I'm not sure where however, but I'll sure like if I find it again.

    Your DPS would I guess indeed go up with a slowonehander. I see the same using Broken Promise over Peacekeeper. In a fullrage scenario you will however still be better off spamming HS with a fast wep where threat is concerned. In a lowrage scenario, slow wep and Deva spam completely rocks is what I've come to learn. I can however not back this up with math, just from personal experience and the TankadinTips addon.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Belgrade Serbia
    Posts
    108
    I tested same sword as you know ( I spamed you badly with recount reports xD ) and also had rly great results,my tps is much higher and dps also.DW ticks 105 instead of 65 without any buffs( my tank weapon is Titanguard).Rotation is just lawl compared to standard rotation.Spaming devastate and s&b on proc and hs for dumping.On bosses where movement is not involved it is great stuff.I managed to do on XT fight 3.7 k dps sadly I didn't do wws .My tank officer was sceptical but after that test he was shocked,also in fights like Twins in ToC he now /w me go with dps thingy .

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    Quote Originally Posted by XtreO View Post
    I saw math supporting Deva does more threat than CB and SW if you wield a 2.6 blade and got over 4.4k AP. That is acquired without too much trouble raidbuffed. I'm not sure where however, but I'll sure like if I find it again.
    I really, really highly doubt this is possible.

    As far as I know, Devastate is a normalized instant attack and thus the only gain for using a slow weapon is the base weapon damage. AP will have no impact one way or another as it will be normalized to 2.4 seconds anyway.

    With 2.4s normalization and 4.4k AP, Devastate would have an AP contribution of 17.1%. CB and SW scale based on 75% of your AP. So the more AP you have the more CB and SW will gain compared to Devastate.

    Deep Wounds increase is minor as the only change in contribution is the difference in crit rate between the abilities. However, it is not normalized so using a slow weapon causes it to gain somewhat in AP scaling. That said, it's quite minor. With a 2.6 second weapon and a 20% increased chance to crit (with set bonus) you would end up with:
    0.2 * (AP / 14) * 2.6 = 3.7% more AP scaling, so up to around 21.8% total AP per Devastate

    Devastate basically amounts to:
    Code:
    (BaseWeaponDamage + (AttackPower / 14) * 2.4) * (1 + DevastateCritRate) + 
    (BaseWeaponDamage + (AttackPower / 14) * WeaponSpeed) * DevastateCritRate + 
    202 * SunderStack
    Concussion Blow is:
    Code:
    AttackPower * 0.75 * (1 + BaseCritRate) + 
    (BaseWeaponDamage + (AttackPower / 14) * WeaponSpeed) * BaseCritRate
    If we plug in 4.4k AP, 10% base crit chance, and a 2.6 speed weapon (which has 465 average damage) with 5 stacks of Sunder Armor:
    Code:
    Devastate = (465 + (4400 / 14) * 2.4) * (1 + .3) + (465 + (4400 / 14) * 2.6) * .3 + 202 * 5
    Devastate = 1219.29 * 1.3 + 1282.14 * .3 + 1010
    Devastate = 2980
     
    CB = 4400 * 0.75 * (1 + .1) + (465 + (4400 / 14) * 2.6) * .1
    CB = 3300 * 1.1 + 1282.14 * .1
    CB = 3758
    Considering Shockwave is the same calculation as Concussion Blow without the chance to get Dodged/Parried, unless you have extreme amounts of Expertise, it will have an additional advantage in that regard.

    While I may have missed something obvious in my calculations, Devastate is only really better than CB at low AP. For a 2.6 second 178.8 DPS weapon, the threshold is 3000 AP as to around when CB passes Devastate. For a 1.8 second weapon, it is around 2600 AP when CB passes Devastate. This threshold is lower with lower ilevel weapons as CB's damage is consistant compared to AP while Devastate is not. However, as increased AP usually comes along with higher ilevel weapons/gear, these usually go hand-in-hand.

    Fully raid-buffed, I am at roughly 5600 Attack Power. I can see no way where Devastate would even remotely touch CB/SW's damage, as they would have almost a 1.4k damage advantage including the T9 2-set, Deep Wounds, and a 2.6s, 188 DPS weapon.

    If there is something wrong with the above numbers, I would love to know since I don't really see how the conclusion that Devastate can pull ahead is reachable.

    That said, dropping Revenge for DPS purposes is highly plausible if you have a set bonus which boosts Devastate's damage. (Otherwise, talented Revenge will likely be better.)
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 09-24-2009 at 04:35 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,344
    I know what math/post he was talking about, as it's mine and it was wrong (I forgot to normalize Devastate).

    That said, http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...readsheet.html is where I corrected everything, so you can use that one as well for comparing numbers.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    55
    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    I know what math/post he was talking about, as it's mine and it was wrong (I forgot to normalize Devastate).

    That said, http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...readsheet.html is where I corrected everything, so you can use that one as well for comparing numbers.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    If there is something wrong with the above numbers, I would love to know since I don't really see how the conclusion that Devastate can pull ahead is reachable.
    With above numbers: wouldn't you get 3 times more often deep wounds proc with devastate? 30% crits vs 10%?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    1,675
    Does rawr take into account what has been found out about glyph of devastate?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    15
    Would this formula be affected by having both the 2set bonus for Tier 8 and Tier 9?
    Tier 8 Increases crit chance of devestate by 10%
    Tier 9 increases damage of Devestate by 5%

    Would this bonus justify one rotation over another?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    Does rawr take into account what has been found out about glyph of devastate?
    I was waiting for Satrina to confirm the bonus and hadn't seen a thread with definitive numbers quite yet. However, if there is one lurking around the forums somewhere, I would love to get it updated in the next build.

    I've seen conflicting reports of Damage + ((315 + 0.05 * AP) (* Glyph)) vs. Damage + 16.3% AP and do not want to commit the wrong version.

    (Although, for the numbers I posted above I was experimenting with the preliminary results in my own build so I believe they should be accurate. I just am wary of committing it to a live build without confirmation of the bonus threat.)
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 09-25-2009 at 05:46 AM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    110
    I was basing my numbers off of satrina's proposed threat numbers.
    With 2 piece T8 or T9 for threat it was:
    Shield Slam > Devastate > Revenge > others

    PS. Also make sure you take revenge out of the rotation when using the slow weapon.

    For DPS,
    shield slam > concussion blow > shockwave > devastate > revenge

    For threat per rage
    shield slam sword and board > revenge > devastate > concussion blow > shockwave > shield slam >>>> heroic strike (aka rage starving yourself EVER with heroic strike is a huge threat loss)

    Regardless, if you can get the 245 pvp weapon such as Relentless Gladiator's Cleaver - Item - World of Warcraft it should be better than any ulduar weapon and any toc10 weapon for both effective health and threat, but certainly worse for mitigation. The 258 pvp weapon is of course also very solid.

    PS. I was using wartotem's spreadsheet and also manually calculated. On the rotation page i was doing just shield slam and devastate with 90% heroic strikes and getting equal threat (8600ish)
    Last edited by Celandro; 09-25-2009 at 05:58 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,344
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    I was waiting for Satrina to confirm the bonus and hadn't seen a thread with definitive numbers quite yet. However, if there is one lurking around the forums somewhere, I would love to get it updated in the next build.

    I've seen conflicting reports of Damage + ((315 + 0.05 * AP) (* Glyph)) vs. Damage + 16.3% AP and do not want to commit the wrong version.

    (Although, for the numbers I posted above I was experimenting with the preliminary results in my own build so I believe they should be accurate. I just am wary of committing it to a live build without confirmation of the bonus threat.)
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...devastate.html

    It seems that the Glyph does indeed add 315 + 5% AP threat. I've recently changed to it and although I haven't had time to go and test exact numbers, my glances on the threat meter do indicate a value atleast very close to that one.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    116
    I don't know if someone tried it and immediately discarded it because of bad results, but I wouldn't forget about breaking down Rend. It sucks with a fast weapon because of how it works but I would be interested to know if it creeps in to usefulness with a slower weapon, both talented and untalented.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    Thanks WarTotem, I have gone ahead and went with the 315 + 5% AP figure and it seems to be fairly accurate.

    To answer the hypothetical question above: Yes, if you have both 2-set T8 and T9 bonuses at the same time, Devastate is probably more or less spammable from a threat perspective. With a fast weapon, it is roughly identical threat per execute as Shield Slam, with Shockwave being the only ability to pull ahead. With a 2.6s weapon, it pulls up to about Shockwave level and is pretty spammable in terms of TPS.

    For damage, with both bonuses Shield Slam and Devastate are about the same with a 2.6s weapon, and Shield Slam is quite a bit higher with a fast weapon. CB and Shockwave are still substantially more damage per execute.

    The issue being, really, that this is only really applicable with both set bonuses. Additionally, the T9 2-set bonus is 'worse' than the T8 bonus in terms of boosting Devastate, therefore as you gear for progression Devastate becomes a bit weaker. I can't see any practical reason to take such a hit on mitigation to use 2 T8 pieces just to gain a slight ease of tanking rotation, or perhaps a minor TPS increase.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,344
    @Kojiyama; perhaps you should consider the DPS loss from not using Shield Slam vs the gain from 2 talent points from Gag Order to Cruelty for example?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    1,644
    Since any Warrior will want Shockwave if only for utility, you need 51 points in Protection anyhow. This means that with the average build, you could cut out two points. For going with a more Devastate-oriented build, Revenge is likely to be first on the chopping block over Shield Slam so you would most likely drop Improved Revenge instead of Gag Order.

    That said, 2 points in Cruelty is a pretty minimal DPS increase anyway--I would think that keeping the points in Prot and putting them into Focused Rage or something would probably be better all-around.

    I don't really think dropping Shield Slam is a great idea unless you happen to be running with both set bonuses for some odd reason. However, that gear setup isn't really an optimal/viable progression gearing strategy so it's not really a long-term thing. As you gear out of T8, you will lose the bonus and thus Devastate will go back to being good, but not better than everything.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts