+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 42

Thread: Survival by the Numbers

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930

    Survival by the Numbers

    This started in a different form and has evolved into a new pet project for me. I'm working on a way of intelligently constructing a breakdown to compare the value of each survival tool in the big picture with the hopes of creating a fairly easy but not too reductive system for tanks to consider the relative values of their choices on survival talents and stat distributions. This will take lots of time to refine, but I appreciate feedback and input so long as it is constructive.

    Negativity and un-supported Op-Ed comments about how X class is broken, or Y class is overpowered only serve to derail the continued education of our community as tanks. Please take those threads elsewhere or stop posting them altogether.

    Here is the starting point for this which I hope to maintain as the backbone of the evolution. This first breakdown is based on the following components:
    • Simple Boss Melee Swings
    • Baseline Passive Survival Stats (Health, Mitigation, Avoidance)
    This is not meant to be all-encompassing, but this is the easiest portion to generalize about. This should also be a very big portion of the picture, though not at all the complete and tangled web. While this does not express the whole, the comparison in terms of changing a stat within a particular exemplar is meaningful.

    **This is not a comparison of the classes. While similar in level, the four tanks presented have different gear and have made their own choices on how to set it up. All 4 classes have been added and expressed as such to be sure this is accessible to all 4 classes as it evolves.**
    ================================================== =====

    I am currently using Rawr for raw stat calculation with raid buffs, not because I believe it is necessarily dead-on accurate, but because it is internally consistent. The buffs included are as follows and assumed equal for all tanks:

    Stoneblood Flask, Well Fed buff (I just used Fish Feast, each tank would likely use something different depending on what they wanted, hit, exp, agi, strength, etc), Prayer of Fortitude, Gift of the Wild, Blessings of Kings, Sanctuary, and Might, Strength of Earth/Horn of Winter, Commanding Shout, Devotion Aura, Scorpid Sting/Insect Swarm, and a de-haste (Tclap, Frost Fever, JotJ, Infected Wound). AP reducing abilities will be left out because I'm not confident on how to apply it correctly.

    This has been changing constantly, so the previous thread was getting to be a complete mess as I tried to preserve numbers. Here are the values current to patch 3.2.2. The following factors have been included in the baseline values.

    Derivations from base gear:
    Warrior = Critical Block (60% chance to double block value)
    Paladin = Holy Shield (assuming 100% uptime of +30% block chance), Libram (assuming 80% uptime of ~3.4% dodge, or 2.72% dodge avg), Glyph of Divine Plea (assuming 100% uptime of -3% dmg), Redoubt (based on 2.0 base swing speed and factoring avoidance, ~+5.62% block chance from Redoubt).
    Death Knight = Blade Barrier (assuming 100% uptime of -5% dmg), Sigil* (*Blood DK, assuming 80% uptime of ~3.4% dodge, or 2.72% dodge avg)
    Druid = Savage Defense (approximated on crit chance, 2.0 sec base boss swing timer, and rough crit-capable attacks per time increment)

    Total Dmg Rdx %'s:
    Warrior = 10% (Def Stance) + 3% (Raid) = 12.70%
    Paladin = 6% (Imp Righteous Fury) + 3% (Shield of the Templar) + 3% (Glyph of Divine Plea) + 3% (Raid) = 14.21%
    Death Knight = 8%* (Frost Pres, *10% for Frost) + 5% (Blade Barrier) + 3% (Raid) = 15.22% (17.07%)
    Druid = 12% (Protector of the Pack) + 3% (Raid) = 14.64%

    Code:
                          Warrior       Paladin           Druid
    Health                 48,938        49,501           56,319
    Armor                  30,333        29,550           32,744
    Miss                    8.82%         8.69%            7.33%
    Dodge                  25.78%        25.71%           45.41%
    Parry                  18.32%        17.97%            0.0%
    Block (%)              18.35%        53.37%           45.00%
    Block (V)              2,837         1,605            1,941
    ==============================================================================
    Armor Rdx (%)          64.58%        63.98%           66.31%
    Total Avoidance        55.92%        55.37%           55.74%
    Total Dmg Rdx          12.70%        14.21%           14.64%
    Average iLvl           233.4         227.8            226.8
    Code:
                        Blood Knight        Frost Knight(DW / 2h)   Unholy Knight
    Health                 49,357          51,072          48,377
    Armor                  30,818          29,843          30,358
    Miss                    9.53%          12.64%           12.73%
    Dodge                  28.81%          25.25%          28.47%
    Parry                  19.51%          25.55%           18.71%
    Block (%)               0.0%            0.0%           0.0%           
    Block (V)                0               0             0             
    ==============================================================================
    Armor Rdx (%)          64.94%          64.21%          64.60%
    Total Avoidance        60.85%          66.44%          62.91%
    Total Dmg Rdx          15.22%          17.07%          17.07%
    Average iLvl           231.1           242.2           234.3
    The new survival pie:
    Warrior (avg ilvl = 233.4)
    Code:
                      Factor      iDPS      % rdx
    Unmitigated      60k/2.0s     30,000     0.0%
    Atk Spd Rdx      60k/2.4s     25,000    16.7%
    Avoidance         55.92%      11,020    46.6%
    Armor Rdx         64.58%       3,903    23.7%
    Misc Dmg Rdx      12.70%       3,407    1.65%
    Block Rdx         1181/sw      3,191    0.72%
    ===============================================
    Total Inc      17.4k/2.4s      3,191    89.36%
    Hit String     44.08%(1)   19.43%(2)   8.56%(3)
    Health            48,938
    Paladin (avg ilvl = 227.8)
    Code:
                      Factor      iDPS      % rdx
    Unmitigated      60k/2.0s     30,000     0.0%
    Atk Spd Rdx      60k/2.4s     25,000    16.7%
    Avoidance         55.37%      11,158    46.1%
    Armor Rdx         63.98%       4,019    23.8%
    Misc Dmg Rdx      14.21%       3,448    1.90%
    Block Rdx        1605/sw       3,149    1.00%
    ===============================================
    Total Inc      16.9k/2.4s      3,149    89.50%
    Hit String     44.63%(1)   19.92%(2)   8.89%(3)
    Health            49,501
    Druid (avg ilvl = 226.8)
    Code:
                      Factor      iDPS      % rdx
    Unmitigated      60k/2.0s     30,000     0.0%
    Atk Spd Rdx      60k/2.4s     25,000    16.7%
    Avoidance         55.74%      11,065    46.5%
    Armor Rdx         66.31%       3,728    24.5%
    Misc Dmg Rdx      14.60%       3,184    1.81%
    Block Rdx         1973/sw       2,820    1.21%
    ===============================================
    Total Inc      15.3k/2.4s      2,820    90.60%
    Hit String     44.26%(1)   19.59%(2)   8.67%(3)
    Health            56,319
    Blood Death Knight (avg ilvl = 231.1)
    Code:
                       Factor      iDPS      % rdx
     Unmitigated      60k/2.0s     30,000     0.0%
     Atk Spd Rdx      60k/2.4s     25,000    16.7%
     Avoidance         60.85%       9,788    49.8%
     Armor Rdx         64.94%       3,431    21.8%
     Misc Dmg Rdx      15.22%       2,909    1.47%
     Block Rdx           0/sw       2,909    0.0%
     ===============================================
     Total Inc      18.4k/2.4s      2,909    90.30%
     Hit String     39.15%(1)   15.33%(2)   6.00%(3)
     Health            49,357
    Frost Death Knight (Dual Wield) (avg ilvl = 242.2)
    Code:
                       Factor      iDPS      % rdx
     Unmitigated      60k/2.0s     30,000     0.0%
     Atk Spd Rdx      60k/2.4s     25,000    16.7%
     Avoidance         66.44%       8,390    55.4%
     Armor Rdx         64.21%       3,003    18.0%
     Misc Dmg Rdx      17.07%       2,490    1.71%
     Block Rdx           0/sw       2,490    0.0%
     ===============================================
     Total Inc      17.8k/2.4s      2,490    91.70%
     Hit String     33.56%(1)   11.26%(2)   3.78%(3)
     Health            51,072
    Frost Death Knight (2-hander) (avg ilvl = 234.3)
    Code:
                       Factor      iDPS      % rdx
     Unmitigated      60k/2.0s     30,000     0.0%
     Atk Spd Rdx      60k/2.4s     25,000    16.7%
     Avoidance         62.91%       9,273    52.4%
     Armor Rdx         64.60%       3,282    20.0%
     Misc Dmg Rdx      17.07%       2,722    1.87%
     Block Rdx           0/sw       2,722    0.0%
     ===============================================
     Total Inc      17.6k/2.4s      2,722    90.93%
     Hit String     37.09%(1)   13.76%(2)   5.10%(3)
     Health            48,377
    **I'm still looking for a very well-geared Unholy DK Tank. If you are or know an Unholy DK tank with avg item level at least 226+, ideally 230+, please PM me. Please do NOT post here as I prefer to keep these listings anonymous.**
    Last edited by Satorri; 09-24-2009 at 09:56 AM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    In handling active/CD survival effects, we will split the abilities into the following 3 categories (I'll use my own terminology so I can short-hand later):

    1.) Protection Buffs. These are abilities that reduce incoming damage by a percentage for a duration. These abilities stack though each effect (including the passive buffs present from long-term buffs and stances already included) diminish each individual effect's actual benefit. In other words if you have 40% reduction from one buff and 60% from another, you will not become damage immune. Each component is applied one after the next so if the buff effects were P1, P2, and P3, the final reduction would be 1-[(1-P1)(1-P2)(1-P3)]. Or as a direct example, 50% reduction from armor, 10% reduction from stance, and 40% reduction from Shield Wall would total as follows Ptotal = 1-[(1-0.50)(1-0.10)(1-0.40)] = 0.73 = 73% reduction total.

    2.) Survival Mechanic Buffs. Each class has its own short CD, or high uptime buffs that they rely on to benefit their survival, as well as longer CD effects that can improve their passive survival tools. Particular examples are Shield Block for Warriors, and Holy Shield for Paladins. These buffs are made to be used frequently, but they are balanced around the fact that the tank must actually activate them. Doing so smartly and well-timed they will provide a greater benefit than if they are used blindly or foolishly. Several of these have been factored in above already, but I will address some additional items in this category.

    3.) Supported Survival Buffs. These special buffs work by improving the tank's survival in a different fashion than just increasing passive survival traits. These are the hardest to factor in a metric like this, but I will be working towards finding a smart way to do it. This category includes effects that increase the tanks incoming heals, or heal the tank directly.

    I will first enumerate the buffs for each class (and please let me know if there is something I appear to have missed). In order to illustrate the values of these abilities, I want to sketch the nature of the buff, and sketch limits of sorts. Maximum benefit (i.e. maximum possible uptime) is important, though it is hard to measure actual use in general and as we move towards the most specific model the application will become extremely encounter specific.

    Items marked with a "*" are already included above.

    Warrior
    • Shield Block: Increases Block Chance and Block Value by 100% for 10 sec on a 1 min CD. Talents reduce the CD by 10/20 sec.
    • Shield Wall: Reduces all incoming damage by 60% for 12 sec on a 5 min CD. Talents can reduce the CD by 30/60 sec, and the glyph makes the reduction 40% and reduces the CD by an additional 2 min.
    • Last Stand: Increases total health by 30% for 20 sec on a 3 min CD. Glyph reduces the CD by 1 min.
    • Glyph of Blocking: Increases Block Value by 10% for 10 sec after each Shield Slam. It will be assumed that in the grand average a Warrior Tank will Shield Slam more than once per 10 sec, so this will have a 100% uptime.
    • Enraged Regeneration: Restores 30% of the Warrior's health over 10 sec, on a 3 min CD, and while active it blocks other enrage effects (+10% damage and/or bonus rage generation). Glyphing increases the total heal by another 10% of the Warrior's max health.
    Paladin
    • *Holy Shield: Increases Block Chance by 30% for 10 seconds, or 8 blocks. On 8 second CD.
    • Divine Protection: Reduces all incoming damage by 50% for 12 sec on a 3 min CD. Talents can reduce the CD by 30/60 sec.
    • *Glyph of Divine Plea: So long as Divine Plea is active, the Paladin takes 3% less damage.
    • Glyph of Hand of Salvation: When the Paladin uses Hand of Salvation on himself, he will take 20% less damage. (Hand of Salv reduces the targets total threat by 2% per second for 10 sec, on a 2 min CD).
    • Lay on Hands: the Paladin heals the target for an amount equal to the Paladin's maximum total health, and restores 1950 mana. Talents can reduce the CD by 2/4 min, and will grant the target 10/20% damage reduction for 15 sec, while the glyph will reduce the CD by 5 min.
    • Ardent Defender: Any attack that takes the Paladin below 35% health is reduced in damage. The damage portion that takes the Paladin's health below 35% is reduced by 7/13/20%. In addition, when the Paladin receives damage that would kill him, he instead is pushed up to 10/20/30% health (assuming 540 def tank), on a 2 min CD.
    Bear
    • Barkskin: Reduces all incoming damage by 20% for 12 sec on a 1 min CD.
    • Survival Instincts: Increases the Bear's maximum health by 30% for 20 sec, on a 3 min CD. Glyph increases the health increase by an additional 15% of max.
    • Frenzied Rejuvenation: The Bear converts 10 rage per sec for 10 sec, into health, on a 3 min CD. The exchange is 0.3% health per point of rage, or 3% per 10 rage. Glyphed this ability increases all incoming heals on the Bear by 20% for the duration.
    Death Knight
    • Icebound Fortitude: Reduces all incoming damage by an amount based on your defense (we'll assume 540 def, or 40%) for 12 sec on a 2 min CD. Talents can increase the duration by 3/6 sec (Frost).
    • Death Strike: In addition to dealing damage, heals the DK for 5% of his maximum health per disease on the target. Talented from Blood this becomes 7.5% max health per disease, and Unholy can talent for a third disease. This is only frequently used for Blood tanking, but is accessible to other tanks.
    • Vampiric Blood (Blood): Increases the DK's health by 15% and increases all healing affects on the DK by 35% for 10 sec, on a 1 min CD. Glyphed the duration is increased by 5 sec.
    • Rune Tap (Blood): Instantly heals the DK for 10% of his total health on a 1 min CD. Talenting reduces the CD by 10/20/30 sec, and increases the healing by 3/7/10% of max health. Glyphing increases the heal on the DK by 10% (so to 11/14/19/22% of max), and causes it to heal the DK's group for 10% of their max health.
    • Mark of Blood (Blood): The target heals anyone it hits for 4% of their max health with every hit. Lasts for 20 sec or up to 20 hits, on a 3 min CD.
    • Imp Blood Presence (Blood): The DK heals himself for 2/4% of his damage dealt.
    • Will of the Necropolis (Blood): Damage that would take the DK below 35% health is reduced. The damage portion that reduces the DK's health below 35% is reduced by 5/10/15%. This effect cannot be trigger by a hit smaller than 5% of the DK's max health, and the proc has a 15 sec CD.
    • Unbreakable Armor (Frost): increases the tank's armor by 25% and increases the DK's strength by 10% for 20 sec, on a 1 min CD. The Glyph increases the bonus armor granted by 20% (so the bonus is now +30% armor).
    • *Frigid Dreadplate (Frost): Increases the DK's chance to be missed by 1/2/3%.
    • *Imp Frost Presence (Frost): Increases the passive damage reduction of Frost Presence by 1/2% (to a total of 6/7%).
    • Bone Shield (Unholy): Activates a shield around the DK with 3 charges. So long as one charge remains the DK will take 20% less damage from everything, and each time the DK takes damage a charge will be consumed (no more than one per 2 sec). Lasts 1 min or until charges are gone, on 1 min CD. Glyphed this shield has 1 extra charges.
    Note 1: I've left out Magic-oriented CDs and effects for the time being, as they will be factored in with a later layer.
    Note 2: I've included itemized passive bonuses for non-uniform procs and some standard passive items for DK's since each tree will function differently as a tank.
    Note 3: Self-heals have been included as they will become very important for particular class-specs, though hard to discuss in a general breakdown of survival. This will be a later layer as well.
    ================================================== ================================================

    Shield Block for Warriors is not quite as easy. When it is active it will double block value (3.2 x actual sheet block value if you account for crit chance), and will make every hit that is not avoided a block (effective block chance becomes 100%-Avoid%). With standard Warrior tank talents, the ability will have a 40 sec CD with a 10 sec uptime, which, if used on CD is 25% uptime. That said, most warriors will not pop it on CD, they will use it strategically (often for threat). So, the maximum effect would be 25% uptime, but the actual effect will depend on use. I will treat this as an on-off condition, and examine the relative and average effects later on.

    For the standard protection abilities, the classes break down as follows, and I will add in some granted effects that healers/raid can provide as well (I'll provide stats consistent with our exemplar tanks' talents and glyphs):
    • Warrior: Shield Wall = 40% dmg rdx, 12 sec duration, 2 min CD
    • Paladin: Divine Protection = 50% dmg rdx, 12 sec duration, 2 min CD
    • Paladin: Glyphed Hand of Salv = 20% dmg rdx, 10 sec duration, 2 min CD
    • Death Knight: Icebound Fortitude = 40% dmg rdx, 12 sec duration, 2 min CD
    • Bear Druid: Barkskin = 20% dmg rdx, 12 sec duration, 1 min CD
    • Inspiration/Ancestral Fortitude: (crit heal from talented Priest/Shaman healer) = 10% physical dmg rdx, 10 sec duration
    • Pain Suppression (Disc Priest) = 40% dmg rdx, 8 sec duration, 3 min CD
    Considering these abilities, the 3 plate wearers have a maximum of 10% uptime while the bear has a maximum of 20% uptime. The Paladin will also have the Hand buff available at an 8.3% uptime. Again, like Shield Block these abilities are often saved for encounter specific peaks, but we will gauge that as the model develops.

    Situational damage reductions (specifically Will of the Necropolis and Ardent Defender) are hard to work into a general model of an average. They will become meaningful when they save the tank and reduce damage, but the conditions of triggering them are a little too tricky to generalize about. I will attempt to demonstrate some of their value, if I can, later on.

    Similarly health maximum bumps can be hard to gauge smartly. I can express them in terms of average maximum health, but that's not a particularly meaningful number. I will find a way to illustrate these as an on-off scenario as well.

    Tank self-healing can become a very serious value, but it needs to be handled with care and a great deal of marked assumptions and conditions. In general, tank self-healing can amount to functionally appear as less damage taken, but it needs to be factored in terms of over-healing and other player/human-related factors. I will create a specific special consideration for this aspect as it becomes particularly meaningful for Blood DKs, and somewhat less so for Bears and Warriors. Interestingly the one tank that can cast real heals while tanking, Paladins, also relies the least on their own healing to survive. In tank self-healing I will also discuss the effects of Imp Leader of the Pack and Judgment of Light, which I have excluded to this point as they can be available to all of the tanks.
    ================================================== ======

    <in progress>
    Last edited by Satorri; 09-24-2009 at 09:00 AM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    (Reserved = Cooldowns #2)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    (Reserved = Magic)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Strange way to compare, big ilvl differences, and it seems to be a poorly geared blood knight if he is overtaken in health by a frost DW tank, about 5K life under me currently (and the druid is about 7K behind other top druids).

    Edit - not that it's a bad idea, just not very accurate in the scheme of things for total comparison

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    **This is not a comparison of the classes. While similar in level, the four tanks presented have different gear and have made their own choices on how to set it up. All 4 classes have been added and expressed as such to be sure this is accessible to all 4 classes as it evolves.**
    The Frost tank I found happened to have fantastic gear, a full 10 iLvl difference from the Blood tank. Not surprising the Frost tank has higher health for that since they're geared the same for heavy Stam. Makes me a little sad that the only thing distinguishing Blood now on health (aside from Vamp Blood) is 3% stam. I'd love to see that value restored, I'm still not sure why it was cut down.
    Last edited by Satorri; 09-23-2009 at 09:23 AM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    I understand that, I guess I'd like to see a ling to the profiles being used. This just gives the impression that frost has all advantage and no disadvantage over blood, and greatly reduces the extremely large difference between a druid and other tanking classes in comparable gear. (Even here, where I have an even higher Ilvl average of near 245+).

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    The World of Warcraft Armory

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    242
    do you know what the DW frost tank's level of progression was Satorri? one of the criticisms people make of DW frost is that it isn't viable past a certain level of progression. with a 242 ilevel average, i'd be interested to know how far he's gotten. that's at least knee-deep in ToC 25 and possibly HToC 10 I would imagine.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    The Frost DK gear is primarily a mix of Ulduar25 hard modes, ToC25 regular and heroics. There are a couple pieces of Uld25 regular gear (Heart of Iron, that sort of thing).

    I'm not positive that they've been dual wield tanking the whole time, but they're definitely doing it now in ToC25 hard modes. Anyone suggesting that there is a currently existing cap where dual wield tanking is no longer viable is sadly mistaken.

    And, Edge, I'd rather not go through making new anonymous gear profiles, heh, and I am interested in keeping things confidential as I don't want this to disintegrate into class comparisons, criticisms of the tank's choices, etc. That's why I included average item levels, to denote the level of the gear in question relative to the survival stats.

    I am simply trying to create an internally consistent model for gauging the relative elements, and I have yet to factor anything as complex as the self-healing provided by Blood. That I hope to do eventually, but I'm hardly rushing.


    That said, I'll post this here, now. I was thinking about this earlier.
    If people are interested, you can either post your personal stats here, raid buffed from your raid if you want more 'live' numbers, or you can PM me if you'd like to keep it confidential. I'll repost the same sort of breakdown presented above.

    Here's what you need to provide:
    Health
    Armor
    Miss
    Dodge *
    (or total of the three if you'd rather)
    Parry

    and and armory link, or link of spec and crucial proc-able gear

    Again, I won't be adding anything complicated as far as buffs go. So, either share your raid buffed stats, or I can tell you what your unbuffed breakdown is.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    22
    I don't know if you can use exceptionally geared players as your model as most players aren't exceptionally geared, thus the numbers are skewed.

    I know that I can sit a good 3-5K in HPs behind my unflasked MT (a Warrior). He isn't exceptionally geared, he just gemmed for stam out the ying-yang. His other stats are still around mine, so his ability to gem for stam is not a hinderance to him whereas it can be for my spec. All in all, there is an imbalance between classes which make comparisons like these hard to do.

    Not questioning the math here, just find that short of a vacuum, these sort of numbers don't hold true for the majority of the players.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    I'm not trying to make numbers applicable to everyone, rather, using top-end gear allows for an even base for consistency, and I happened to pick tanks who I have high confidence in their knowledge of their class for setting up their gear.

    Rather, I'm interested in showing how the various pieces that contribute to your survival contribute to your total reduction, and eventually to show how CD's affect things, and how changing a given stat will affect your final tally for survival.

    I don't think it would be any more helpful to that goal to take "average" gear tanks, but I'm hoping some folks don't mind providing their stats publicly so we can see just how much a range you get from those lesser geared tanks to the heavily geared ones.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    74
    You also need to consider what sort of orientation the tank follows. Personally speaking, as a bit more TPS oriented tank my HP will obviously not be as high as it can be.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Also, something generally accepted. If you gear/spec for threat, your survival will be lower. The tanks I am modeling off of are all spec'd for balance. High survival for endgame content, but they still have to hit the crucial threat requirements of high dps groups.

    Again, happy to look at what happens with a range of choices, these are just a specific set to make nice big survival numbers. Sort of a 'what can be' scenario if you protract your class/spec out to a high gear level, with some iffiness for the different choices you may make.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    242
    Finding the right balance can be tough, and sometimes it's not only about the content your facing but also about playing to your group. If you've got hot2handle dps you may find yourself gearing for threat at a the expense of survivability. I think the biggest challenge for us is to find creative ways to gear for both at the same time. using my Deathknight experience as an example: I personally find the Sigil of Virulence to be a great threat-centric Sigil for Deathknights that also generates a small amount of avoidance (50 parry rating). since i'm DW frost, I basically spam Oblit all day, and in my experience the sigil has nearly 100% up-time. it's hard to argue with getting 400ap and 50 parry rating from a sigil with close to 100% up-time

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Exactly, and I favor the other end of the scale, since I have had enough threat and support from my team to not have problems with people riding my tail. So I use the Dodge sigil which provides a lot of survival, and a little threat (hurray for more RS!).

    The range of choices is what makes things interesting, but also makes it a bit unreasonable to cover the scale of possibilities.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    39

    Unholy

    Stats are Raid Buffed using the Unholy/Vot3W build.

    Health: 54,300
    Armor: 32,024 (without potion)
    Miss: 6.92%
    Dodge: 30.24% (not including Sigil of Insolence - Item - World of Warcraft)
    Parry: 22.45%

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    50 second Bone Armor (4 piece T9) averages an uptime of 50ish% on a mob who swings every 2.0 seconds.

    (25 swings in 50 seconds, with an avoidance of 65%+ = 8-9 hits, 4 of which would be 20% less damage from bone armor on average)


    Edit: Just barely under hit cap with Draenei aura and soft expertise capped with expertise food buff.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    242
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Exactly, and I favor the other end of the scale, since I have had enough threat and support from my team to not have problems with people riding my tail. So I use the Dodge sigil which provides a lot of survival, and a little threat (hurray for more RS!).

    The range of choices is what makes things interesting, but also makes it a bit unreasonable to cover the scale of possibilities.
    i've considered the additional avoidance creating more RS opportunities. If I can get my hands on 2 QS's from Ony 10/25, I may try the sigil of Insolence. the avoidance buff from QS along with the insolence sigil might create a threat-avoidance cycle through rapid Runestrike procs that would make it preferrable to the Sigil of Virulence.

    must have moar badges of triumph! :O

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    4,930
    Vah = Unholy Death Knight (avg ilvl = 247.1)
    Code:
                       Factor      iDPS      % rdx
     Unmitigated      60k/2.0s     30,000     0.0%
     Atk Spd Rdx      60k/2.4s     25,000    16.7%
     Avoidance         62.61%       9,348    52.2%
     Armor Rdx         65.81%       3,196    20.5%
     Misc Dmg Rdx      15.22%       2,709    1.62%
     Block Rdx           0/sw       2,709    0.0%
     ===============================================
     Total Inc      17.4k/2.4s      2,709    90.97%
     Hit String     37.39%(1)   13.98%(2)   5.23%(3)
     Health            49,357
    
    *This assumes you have someone else covering the full boss de-haste which you do not. Without it your overall dmg rdx would be 90.32% (2903 idps).

    **This also does not yet factor Bone Shield. That is work to come.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    Quote Originally Posted by Vah View Post
    Stats are Raid Buffed using the Unholy/Vot3W build.

    Health: 54,300
    Armor: 32,024 (without potion)
    Miss: 6.92%
    Dodge: 30.24% (not including Sigil of Insolence - Item - World of Warcraft)
    Parry: 22.45%

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    50 second Bone Armor (4 piece T9) averages an uptime of 50ish% on a mob who swings every 2.0 seconds.

    (25 swings in 50 seconds, with an avoidance of 65%+ = 8-9 hits, 4 of which would be 20% less damage from bone armor on average)


    Edit: Just barely under hit cap with Draenei aura and soft expertise capped with expertise food buff.
    How's your threat with that build?
    I considered it for a while, but just can't see giving up the utility of blood or Vamp. Blood.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    167
    This IS a comparison of the classes. Use identical gear where possible please or this won't be accurate.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts