So let's repeat: ardent defender cannot possibly proc when you didn't need it
except when you're trying to wipe and start over. then it's just silly
My 2 cents on this thread
Paladins were REALLY OP, now they are slightly advantageous in some areas with the latest round of nerfs, most notably the stam->SP change. However, perception need to catch up with reality. They are no longer gods on threat, now they are slightly better. AD nerf has reduced their EH from godly to slightly better. This means we will see some people roll some paladins, and then bench them, much like many people bench old Flavour of the Month (FotM) characters.
OKay, let's me try and catalog what has been said, and comment
1) Paladins have more HP than warriors, and it's a humungous paladin epeen!
No it isn't huge, it's more like 500 to 1k health at best. With scaling, this might go up slightly, but not up to the 5k difference some people fear, likely 2k at best in the face of 60k Health pools (still about only 3% difference, not significant).
2) Difference is in Gemming/enchanting/etc.
Yes, this is likely the case, but it just changes it from 1k HP difference to 500 HP, or thereabouts. At the end of the day, Paladins scale better, with a lower starting point. it has also mention that as with all things, the Devs can and do tweak things and may do so at a later patch.
3) But Warriors have GunZ! That's extra stats, right?
Yes, and so does the Pink Marmot Squad. Due to scaling, it's not enough to close the stamina gap between warriors and Pallies, and the newer guns have less stamina. Incidentally, PMS Gunz are pure awesomeness, let's hope they aren't nerfed anytime soon.
4) This is a QQ thread/Grass is greener/etc., all tanks get the job done.
Yes. But realize that paladins were the ugly stepchild tanks up until Mount Hyjal, so we were due up for some love, and we may lose that love in future patches. I predict warriors will get the dev love next, followed by DKs and then Druids.
5) Paladins were also benched for all hardmodes in favour of DKs, quit whining about Pally OP.
People don't realize this as the vast majority of the QQers probably don't do hardmodes. Those that do are the ones that are saying everything is <mostly> balanced now.
6) Paladins got CD changes because they only had 1 CD, and that's why they were benched for hardmodes
Yes, the devs fixed this, but they also took away some of our threat superiority to compensate for this
7) Paladins are mind-numbingly boring. So are bears. Warriors are fun because I have more shiny buttons to push,
That's true for many skilled tanks. Personally, when the excrement hits the whirling blades on the ceiling, I don't want to try and mash 15 buttons in desperation during a lag boss encounter, I just want to hit 1 or 2 and have it work. That's why I personally enjoy Pally tanking or Druid tanking, and dislike warrior tanking some days.
8) If you want an EH tank, go roll a bear.
This was true, but that is slowing dying out. Bears have been nerfed to the point where they almost have as much HP paladins, to say nothing of blood DKs post nerf.
9) If EH is the be all and end all of tanking, why don't we see a glut of feral druids being rolled?
a) Again, Druid's EH have been so badly nerfed that it makes me nerd rage to the point of gibbering incoherently. I want my bear to be like the 2.4 days.
b) Paladins have great EH AND Threat AND brainless AoE AND are very easy to play due to a rotation rather than priority. That's why they are popular.
c) Colliseum has exposed the cancer that is mindless stam stacking. Read through TankSpot, especially the HALP section, with the cries of 35k+ unbuffed tanks crumbling, because they stacked stamina with no regard to threat or avoidance. Those who realize this fact are the ones paying attention to the Dodge: parry:defense ratios, and succeeding.
10) Warriors are great because they have a big toolbox
As the devs explained, they don't want 4 identical classes, warriors get the job done with abilities, Druids with raw EH, paladins with passive protection, and DKs are all over the place depending on spec. But if you like choices, then the warrior is your choice, if you like simple, roll a druid or paladin.
11) Warrior edge is in some oddball abilities, like spell reflect and disarm, which is highly situational and more for PVP, whereas paladins tools are good all the time
a) this is part of the charm of warriors. if you don't like it, don't roll a prot warrior
b) Paladins do have some situational tools too, such as Holy Wrath, specific magic resist auras, Divine Protection, Hand of <whatever> and so on.
Screw you Prettyboy paladins! You're not really a tank till you have RSI in 10 fingers, 7 toes, and your nose! :P
on a more serious note while i don't agree with all of insahnity's points, he's mostly right, we might have less health,but health isn't eveything, we have to survive, thats our job, and granted health is a big part of that, but it isn't the be all and end all.
I can't stand tanking on mt pally alt, its just so boring, hammer this, other hammer that, their lack mobility and reactive abilities...how is this fun? there nothing interesting, you don't have to watch out for fun stuff, or learn to hit 17 buttons with one hand at once while untying your other hand's fingers from the preivious time you had to hit 17 buttons at once.
if your not having fun on your warrior, don't play on your warrior. I don't have fun as either arms of fury, so i don't play arms or fury.
Any raid leader worth his salt knows a prot warrior brings and isn't going to deny you a raid spot for having 3k less health than a paladin. tank choice comes down to two factors really, trust and encounter design, and that encounter design sometimes works for us (most of ToC, Auriaya) and against us (vezax), but even then trust is the bigger issue, if they don't trust you to intterupt those sentinel blasts there going to find another tank who can, even if that tank can't break every fear by themselves.
Effective Health, to my mind, is a numerical representation of your approximate time to live in the worst case scenario and it's really only your health pool and armor that can help you out when all else fails.
Now I know you'll rebutt this by saying that Kologarn can cast Crunch Armor, so if you're counting boss specials as to why Holy Shield isn't EH then surely you can't count Armor as EH either? Well, the key thing here is that no matter its uptime or how neatly it fits in a rotation, Holy Shield requires manual intervention - if you lag, it stops counting. If you have to break GCD to taunt something, it stops counting. If you need to slam on some cooldowns and delay things by a few GCDs, it stops counting.
As reliable as Holy Shield can be, I simply can't see an argument for it counting towards Effective Health because it's not always there and even if you prepare for fights where it won't be, you can't get it perfect every single time on the others. Armor and your Stam pool, conversely, will be there right until the bitter end whether you're spot on with your rotation with a sub-20 ping or you've fallen asleep and are getting drool underneath your space bar.
I agree there, if you count Holy Shield for EH, you need to count Avoidance, too. Just as unreliable. :P
-- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)
I do alot of hardmodes and I say it is unbalanced now in favour of Paladins and Bears simply due to the fact that their EH is better than ohers. EH is _everything_ when it comes to hardmodes and I for one think it is pretty strange that they give the classes that uses a 2 button rotation for threat such a strong inherent EH multiplier.
"Here is your Paladin, now go stack stamina w/o any regard to hit rating or expertise" - Amazing...
Tanking is the only job where class balance is so desperately needed, none can or should be better than the rest. It is not like DPSing where you bring a multitude of different classes because they possess different crucial abilities. You can't really fill a raid with 16 rogues but on the other hand you could easily bring 2-3 prot paladins, bears or warriors for tanking and it should not be like that.
But I think we can agree that Paladin blocking is closer to EH than Warrior blocking?
It is closer to EH than warrior blocking, yes. Whenever you can count on both holy shield's uptime and your full available avoidance(basically whenever you aren't aoeing nor stunned), holy shield means you'll always block, effectively increasing your EH.
Also, I love how you're talking about Druid "EH" yet completely ignoring the fact that Armor on Druid items is falling short of that on Warrior, DK and Paladin equivalents due to scaling. For example:
Warrior Chest of Triumph - 2473 Armor
Druid Chest of Triumph - 623 Armor x 370% Dire Bear Form modifyer = 2305.1 Armor
Warrior Gloves of Triumph - 1545 Armor
Druid Gloves of Triumph - 389 x 370% = 1439.3 Armor
It gets worse for the Heroic pieces:
Warrior Chest of Triumph (Heroic) - 2588 Armor
Druid Chest of Triumph (Heroic) - 652 x 370% = 2412.4 Armor
Across the 8 Leather pieces a Druid would have they're probably missing out on somewhere in the region of 800-1,200 Armor compared to equivalent-geared Warriors which is certainly a dip in EH and is a definite example of scaling in another area not favouring Bears at the moment. It may not make up for the scaling on Stamina (I haven't done the maths), but I'd wager that the time-to-live is a lot closer than you seem to think.
Honestly, I can see why the Tankspot rules are so specific about class comparison threads. All your post really says to me is "Paladins are easy to play and I should be rewarded with higher HP in exchange for the fact my class is a bit more complicated". A good Warrior with 35k unbuffed will almost always survive longer than a bad Paladin with 40k unbuffed anyway - just be content in the knowledge that you know your class, are a great tank and can tackle any content the game has to offer right now. Your raid leaders will know the good tanks from the bad anyway and I find it highly unlikely they'd arbitrarily pick based on HP alone.
I can see your point but my personal view is that EH only includes things which are guaranteed constants such as HP, Armor and flat mitigation reductions like Blessing of Sanctuary, Improved Righteous Fury, etc. The basis for EH comparison, to my mind, stems from anything that is guaranteed and HS being all-but-guaranteed isn't quite enough in my opinion, despite it being incredibly likely.
Armor is not guaranteed constant, when we have bleeds and magic damage. But we focus on physical damage, because it is the most common damage taken by tank in typical circumstances.I can see your point but my personal view is that EH only includes things which are guaranteed constants such as HP, Armor and flat mitigation reductions like Blessing of Sanctuary, Improved Righteous Fury, etc. The basis for EH comparison, to my mind, stems from anything that is guaranteed and HS being all-but-guaranteed isn't quite enough in my opinion, despite it being incredibly likely.
That is everything I have to say about paladin block being a part of EH, or not. I'm afraid there is no way we can agree on that. Its not a big deal anyway.
Oh aye, it's not a big deal and I can totally see your point it's just we'll need to agree to disagree I guess
It depends on what you are using as context. If you are talking about the hard mode ToC fights, then it can only be counted for Twin Valks and Jarraxas. Northrend Beasts and Anub won't count specifically because the point of contention in those encounters is the point at which they stun/knock down/freeze you, eliminating block.
You can call it an exception all you want, but in the case of the current content, what you call an exception is the actual point of interest for comparison on those specific encounters, so that is really just muddying the water. In northrend beasts, you care about HP/base (though BV can be counted as phys EH here) for the first two parts and HP/AC/base for the last part. For Anub you care about HP/AC/base. For Jaraxxas and Valks, you can care about HP/AC/BV/base
In earlier content, BV can often be called EH as well, but if someone is going to complain about EH in hardmode ToC (or even the normal mode for that matter), then we need to identify what are the encounters/events of interest and what stats affect those specifically. Acting like stuns/bleeds/freezes/etc. is the exception when considering current content is very misleading. The points where a tank dies in some of those encounters are specifically those points. You can't ignore where it occurs either, but handwaving the places where it doesn't as if they aren't important isn't the way to go.
EDIT: As another note, we don't always have 102.4%. I know in some of my boss tanking gear, I am often times below that number. Paladins as a rule don't necessarily have that value, it all depends on your gear. It is easy to get, but if you don't have it, then you have to typically sacrifice stamina or something else for it (which kind of retracts the extra health advantage for those paladins). For paladins that have it naturally, that is a different story. In my mixed gear, I have it naturally. In my boss tanking gear I am typically shy, so I can't count BV as EH in my case for example.
Icehowl: Worst case is Melee+Stun+Melee. The latter two moves are unavoidable and those 3 hits are generally enough to kill a Paladin so you can only add BV once to the EH for the first Melee swing. You can do the same for Anub as well and so on.
And FWIW, I loaded my char up in Rawr and socketed pure Stamina and changed into a Prot Paladin (unequipped gun too) with full raid buffs and the difference is around 1.2k health which on it's own is not a big deal really. But like all things in WoW the little stuff adds up. 1.2k health from the Stamina scaling, another ~1.5k (see above) for the Block for bosses and the passive 8% from AD and you get a bigger difference.
The tier doesn't matter honestly. I had it by the end of Naxx. I lost it in Ulduar. Now, I have it in some gear sets and not the others. The cost of it is pretty irrelevant though. We don't typically tradeoff good tanking gear just to make it if we are shy. We generally just pick the best tanking gear we can and if we get it, then great. If not, then oh well. It is easy to get, but it rarely is a specific target anymore and there are cases where paladins are shy. I was like 5-6% shy in the ulduar days.
Last edited by jere; 10-01-2009 at 06:45 PM.