+ Reply to Thread
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 81

Thread: Paladin domination?

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    136
    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    Hmmm, I didn't read where they specifically removed that "down side" to the proc on the previous PTR. You are correct, it's been gone for a while. The debuff simply means that you can't be "saved" again for another two minutes, nothing more.
    They didn't specifically remove it because it was never intended. It was a bug in the attachment of the GS-save functionality, and plenty of bugs during the PTR phase (TEST realm, remember?) don't get explicitly outlined.

    So let's repeat: ardent defender cannot possibly proc when you didn't need it



    except when you're trying to wipe and start over. then it's just silly

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,023
    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    AFAIK that was only a rumor on PTR and confirmed some time ago to not be the case. Would be interesting to know otherwise, but I seem to remember Lore or some other Paladin mentioning it was confirmed as still working after the proc in the late PTR stages.
    As a note, this was not a rumor. On the test realm, this is how AD worked for a while. At some point during the test phase, they did fix it, but it indeed did stop working after the proc for a bit on the PTR.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    That Place Above the USA
    Posts
    2,282
    My 2 cents on this thread

    Paladins were REALLY OP, now they are slightly advantageous in some areas with the latest round of nerfs, most notably the stam->SP change. However, perception need to catch up with reality. They are no longer gods on threat, now they are slightly better. AD nerf has reduced their EH from godly to slightly better. This means we will see some people roll some paladins, and then bench them, much like many people bench old Flavour of the Month (FotM) characters.

    OKay, let's me try and catalog what has been said, and comment

    1) Paladins have more HP than warriors, and it's a humungous paladin epeen!
    No it isn't huge, it's more like 500 to 1k health at best. With scaling, this might go up slightly, but not up to the 5k difference some people fear, likely 2k at best in the face of 60k Health pools (still about only 3% difference, not significant).

    2) Difference is in Gemming/enchanting/etc.
    Yes, this is likely the case, but it just changes it from 1k HP difference to 500 HP, or thereabouts. At the end of the day, Paladins scale better, with a lower starting point. it has also mention that as with all things, the Devs can and do tweak things and may do so at a later patch.

    3) But Warriors have GunZ! That's extra stats, right?
    Yes, and so does the Pink Marmot Squad. Due to scaling, it's not enough to close the stamina gap between warriors and Pallies, and the newer guns have less stamina. Incidentally, PMS Gunz are pure awesomeness, let's hope they aren't nerfed anytime soon.

    4) This is a QQ thread/Grass is greener/etc., all tanks get the job done.
    Yes. But realize that paladins were the ugly stepchild tanks up until Mount Hyjal, so we were due up for some love, and we may lose that love in future patches. I predict warriors will get the dev love next, followed by DKs and then Druids.

    5) Paladins were also benched for all hardmodes in favour of DKs, quit whining about Pally OP.
    People don't realize this as the vast majority of the QQers probably don't do hardmodes. Those that do are the ones that are saying everything is <mostly> balanced now.

    6) Paladins got CD changes because they only had 1 CD, and that's why they were benched for hardmodes
    Yes, the devs fixed this, but they also took away some of our threat superiority to compensate for this

    7) Paladins are mind-numbingly boring. So are bears. Warriors are fun because I have more shiny buttons to push,
    That's true for many skilled tanks. Personally, when the excrement hits the whirling blades on the ceiling, I don't want to try and mash 15 buttons in desperation during a lag boss encounter, I just want to hit 1 or 2 and have it work. That's why I personally enjoy Pally tanking or Druid tanking, and dislike warrior tanking some days.

    8) If you want an EH tank, go roll a bear.
    This was true, but that is slowing dying out. Bears have been nerfed to the point where they almost have as much HP paladins, to say nothing of blood DKs post nerf.

    9) If EH is the be all and end all of tanking, why don't we see a glut of feral druids being rolled?
    a) Again, Druid's EH have been so badly nerfed that it makes me nerd rage to the point of gibbering incoherently. I want my bear to be like the 2.4 days.
    b) Paladins have great EH AND Threat AND brainless AoE AND are very easy to play due to a rotation rather than priority. That's why they are popular.
    c) Colliseum has exposed the cancer that is mindless stam stacking. Read through TankSpot, especially the HALP section, with the cries of 35k+ unbuffed tanks crumbling, because they stacked stamina with no regard to threat or avoidance. Those who realize this fact are the ones paying attention to the Dodge: parry:defense ratios, and succeeding.

    10) Warriors are great because they have a big toolbox
    As the devs explained, they don't want 4 identical classes, warriors get the job done with abilities, Druids with raw EH, paladins with passive protection, and DKs are all over the place depending on spec. But if you like choices, then the warrior is your choice, if you like simple, roll a druid or paladin.

    11) Warrior edge is in some oddball abilities, like spell reflect and disarm, which is highly situational and more for PVP, whereas paladins tools are good all the time
    a) this is part of the charm of warriors. if you don't like it, don't roll a prot warrior
    b) Paladins do have some situational tools too, such as Holy Wrath, specific magic resist auras, Divine Protection, Hand of <whatever> and so on.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,965
    Screw you Prettyboy paladins! You're not really a tank till you have RSI in 10 fingers, 7 toes, and your nose! :P

    on a more serious note while i don't agree with all of insahnity's points, he's mostly right, we might have less health,but health isn't eveything, we have to survive, thats our job, and granted health is a big part of that, but it isn't the be all and end all.

    I can't stand tanking on mt pally alt, its just so boring, hammer this, other hammer that, their lack mobility and reactive abilities...how is this fun? there nothing interesting, you don't have to watch out for fun stuff, or learn to hit 17 buttons with one hand at once while untying your other hand's fingers from the preivious time you had to hit 17 buttons at once.

    if your not having fun on your warrior, don't play on your warrior. I don't have fun as either arms of fury, so i don't play arms or fury.

    Any raid leader worth his salt knows a prot warrior brings and isn't going to deny you a raid spot for having 3k less health than a paladin. tank choice comes down to two factors really, trust and encounter design, and that encounter design sometimes works for us (most of ToC, Auriaya) and against us (vezax), but even then trust is the bigger issue, if they don't trust you to intterupt those sentinel blasts there going to find another tank who can, even if that tank can't break every fear by themselves.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    1) Paladins have more HP than warriors, and it's a humungous paladin epeen!
    No it isn't huge, it's more like 500 to 1k health at best. With scaling, this might go up slightly, but not up to the 5k difference some people fear, likely 2k at best in the face of 60k Health pools (still about only 3% difference, not significant).
    Again: paladin's EH is superior to warrior's EH in four ways (AD, more passive reduction, block added to EH, more raw health). While you can dismiss each of those on its own. when you add them all together "not significant" becomes "significant".
    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    8) If you want an EH tank, go roll a bear.
    This was true, but that is slowing dying out. Bears have been nerfed to the point where they almost have as much HP paladins, to say nothing of blood DKs post nerf.
    Heh, that is actually wrong. I though druid's EH is close to paladin's EH, but actually its a lot higher, and scaling is in druid's favour. Druid's EH will need more adjustments, and soon, I'm afraid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    11) Warrior edge is in some oddball abilities, like spell reflect and disarm, which is highly situational and more for PVP, whereas paladins tools are good all the time
    a) this is part of the charm of warriors. if you don't like it, don't roll a prot warrior
    What kind of answer is that? Warrior were always solid tanks, with solid health, with block providing uncrushable. Tanking through tools (which is pretty weird idea, could you explain it? how "warriors get the job done with abilities"?) was never an intented flavour of warrior class, its only a silly argument used by DKs pre nerf and paladins now to somehow explain unfair advantage in EH. I rolled my warrior years before someone would ever suugest something like that.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Sheffield, UK
    Posts
    374
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Any raid leader worth his salt knows a prot warrior brings and isn't going to deny you a raid spot for having 3k less health than a paladin. tank choice comes down to two factors really, trust and encounter design, and that encounter design sometimes works for us (most of ToC, Auriaya) and against us (vezax), but even then trust is the bigger issue, if they don't trust you to intterupt those sentinel blasts there going to find another tank who can, even if that tank can't break every fear by themselves.
    I'd agree with this on the whole, but not every raid leader is worth his salt sadly. People can always be tempted to try and take the easy way out on a boss if they get stuck on a fight. For examples, a guilds weak point could be their healers and they are wiping on heroid beasts for example, and their tanks keep dying to impale as they're not full when they take it - the true solution would be to get better tank healers, the easy solution would be to bring paladin tanks!

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    642
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    (AD, more passive reduction, block added to EH, more raw health).
    I strongly disagree with this notion that somehow Holy Shield making you block-capped counts as Effective Health for a very simple reason - if I get disarmed, stunned, knocked down, thrown into water, frozen in a tomb of ice spewed from a beetle's face or any other affliction a boss may chose to present me with, Holy Shield does nothing for me.

    Effective Health, to my mind, is a numerical representation of your approximate time to live in the worst case scenario and it's really only your health pool and armor that can help you out when all else fails.

    Now I know you'll rebutt this by saying that Kologarn can cast Crunch Armor, so if you're counting boss specials as to why Holy Shield isn't EH then surely you can't count Armor as EH either? Well, the key thing here is that no matter its uptime or how neatly it fits in a rotation, Holy Shield requires manual intervention - if you lag, it stops counting. If you have to break GCD to taunt something, it stops counting. If you need to slam on some cooldowns and delay things by a few GCDs, it stops counting.

    As reliable as Holy Shield can be, I simply can't see an argument for it counting towards Effective Health because it's not always there and even if you prepare for fights where it won't be, you can't get it perfect every single time on the others. Armor and your Stam pool, conversely, will be there right until the bitter end whether you're spot on with your rotation with a sub-20 ping or you've fallen asleep and are getting drool underneath your space bar.



  8. #68
    I agree there, if you count Holy Shield for EH, you need to count Avoidance, too. Just as unreliable. :P
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    5) Paladins were also benched for all hardmodes in favour of DKs, quit whining about Pally OP.
    People don't realize this as the vast majority of the QQers probably don't do hardmodes. Those that do are the ones that are saying everything is <mostly> balanced now.
    I do not agree.

    I do alot of hardmodes and I say it is unbalanced now in favour of Paladins and Bears simply due to the fact that their EH is better than ohers. EH is _everything_ when it comes to hardmodes and I for one think it is pretty strange that they give the classes that uses a 2 button rotation for threat such a strong inherent EH multiplier.

    "Here is your Paladin, now go stack stamina w/o any regard to hit rating or expertise" - Amazing...

    Tanking is the only job where class balance is so desperately needed, none can or should be better than the rest. It is not like DPSing where you bring a multitude of different classes because they possess different crucial abilities. You can't really fill a raid with 16 rogues but on the other hand you could easily bring 2-3 prot paladins, bears or warriors for tanking and it should not be like that.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    493
    Quote Originally Posted by Mert View Post
    As reliable as Holy Shield can be, I simply can't see an argument for it counting towards Effective Health
    I could see including it for some tank-n-spank style fights, since you should be able to reliably keep it rolling with minimal difficulty. But for most encounters of current interest, that's not the case.

    But I think we can agree that Paladin blocking is closer to EH than Warrior blocking?

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,405
    It is closer to EH than warrior blocking, yes. Whenever you can count on both holy shield's uptime and your full available avoidance(basically whenever you aren't aoeing nor stunned), holy shield means you'll always block, effectively increasing your EH.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by Mert View Post
    I strongly disagree with this notion that somehow Holy Shield making you block-capped counts as Effective Health for a very simple reason - if I get disarmed, stunned, knocked down, thrown into water, frozen in a tomb of ice spewed from a beetle's face or any other affliction a boss may chose to present me with, Holy Shield does nothing for me.
    Ofc EH is something that changes from one encounter to another. We have bleeds, we have magic damage, basically every fight adds something outside of the boss beating on you - so "average EH" is somewhat a theoretical concept,a guideline who will survive better, not an absolute. Still, it takes an additional factor to make paladin's block to stop being EH, if we do not include any, it remains EH. You might as well argue to ignore armor because of magic damage - makes sense in specific cases, but not if we are interested in some general number to compare.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mert View Post
    Well, the key thing here is that no matter its uptime or how neatly it fits in a rotation, Holy Shield requires manual intervention - if you lag, it stops counting. If you have to break GCD to taunt something, it stops counting. If you need to slam on some cooldowns and delay things by a few GCDs, it stops counting.
    Why would the manual intervention needed be deciding factor? Holy shield uptime is very easy to keep up, duration is longer than cooldown. Its absolutely possible to lose it, but in "normal" situation, you will have it 100% of the time. Again, if you want to count EH case by case, feel free to not include HS in some situations, but those are exceptions.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    642
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzobee View Post
    I do alot of hardmodes and I say it is unbalanced now in favour of Paladins and Bears simply due to the fact that their EH is better than ohers. EH is _everything_ when it comes to hardmodes and I for one think it is pretty strange that they give the classes that uses a 2 button rotation for threat such a strong inherent EH multiplier.
    Do raid leaders really min/max their raid composition to the point they'll take a Paladin simply for having 500 or so more HP and a cooldown that a Holy Priest can give to a Warrior pretty easily? I'd imagine most guilds are taking their best-geared and most skilled tanks to Hard Modes rather then taking the PUG approach of "hurr, many HPs". I guess your mileage may vary though /shrug.

    Also, I love how you're talking about Druid "EH" yet completely ignoring the fact that Armor on Druid items is falling short of that on Warrior, DK and Paladin equivalents due to scaling. For example:

    Warrior Chest of Triumph - 2473 Armor
    Druid Chest of Triumph - 623 Armor x 370% Dire Bear Form modifyer = 2305.1 Armor

    Warrior Gloves of Triumph - 1545 Armor
    Druid Gloves of Triumph - 389 x 370% = 1439.3 Armor

    It gets worse for the Heroic pieces:

    Warrior Chest of Triumph (Heroic) - 2588 Armor
    Druid Chest of Triumph (Heroic) - 652 x 370% = 2412.4 Armor

    Across the 8 Leather pieces a Druid would have they're probably missing out on somewhere in the region of 800-1,200 Armor compared to equivalent-geared Warriors which is certainly a dip in EH and is a definite example of scaling in another area not favouring Bears at the moment. It may not make up for the scaling on Stamina (I haven't done the maths), but I'd wager that the time-to-live is a lot closer than you seem to think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tzobee View Post
    "Here is your Paladin, now go stack stamina w/o any regard to hit rating or expertise" - Amazing...
    That's quite the over-simplification there. The fact is that pre-3.2 Paladins were less interested in Expertise than Warriors but since the changes to Seal of Vengeance it's become a far more worthwhile stat both in terms of mitigation and threat. As for Hit Rating, we pay as much attention to it as Warriors, which is usually just enough to keep our threat high and little more. Most Warriors I know let it come from gear and gem/enchant for EH and avoidance, just the same as Paladins do.

    Honestly, I can see why the Tankspot rules are so specific about class comparison threads. All your post really says to me is "Paladins are easy to play and I should be rewarded with higher HP in exchange for the fact my class is a bit more complicated". A good Warrior with 35k unbuffed will almost always survive longer than a bad Paladin with 40k unbuffed anyway - just be content in the knowledge that you know your class, are a great tank and can tackle any content the game has to offer right now. Your raid leaders will know the good tanks from the bad anyway and I find it highly unlikely they'd arbitrarily pick based on HP alone.



  14. #74
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    642
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    Why would the manual intervention needed be deciding factor? Holy shield uptime is very easy to keep up, duration is longer than cooldown. Its absolutely possible to lose it, but in "normal" situation, you will have it 100% of the time. Again, if you want to count EH case by case, feel free to not include HS in some situations, but those are exceptions.
    As I said, lag spikes do happen, as do "oh crap, OT died, taunt taunt" moments, panic cooldowns, Lay on Hands, etc - it's easy to keep it up 100% of the time until you're needed to do something off-rotation and that can happen in any fight, not just specific encounters.

    I can see your point but my personal view is that EH only includes things which are guaranteed constants such as HP, Armor and flat mitigation reductions like Blessing of Sanctuary, Improved Righteous Fury, etc. The basis for EH comparison, to my mind, stems from anything that is guaranteed and HS being all-but-guaranteed isn't quite enough in my opinion, despite it being incredibly likely.



  15. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by Mert View Post
    As I said, lag spikes do happen, as do "oh crap, OT died, taunt taunt" moments, panic cooldowns, Lay on Hands, etc - it's easy to keep it up 100% of the time until you're needed to do something off-rotation and that can happen in any fight, not just specific encounters.
    Those are all exceptions, things that can possibly happen but in normal circumstances do not. You can't possibly count EH with taking all those exceptions in mind, so it is better to ignore them all, if you want to number to keep any value.
    I can see your point but my personal view is that EH only includes things which are guaranteed constants such as HP, Armor and flat mitigation reductions like Blessing of Sanctuary, Improved Righteous Fury, etc. The basis for EH comparison, to my mind, stems from anything that is guaranteed and HS being all-but-guaranteed isn't quite enough in my opinion, despite it being incredibly likely.
    Armor is not guaranteed constant, when we have bleeds and magic damage. But we focus on physical damage, because it is the most common damage taken by tank in typical circumstances.

    That is everything I have to say about paladin block being a part of EH, or not. I'm afraid there is no way we can agree on that. Its not a big deal anyway.

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    642
    Oh aye, it's not a big deal and I can totally see your point it's just we'll need to agree to disagree I guess



  17. #77
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,023
    It depends on what you are using as context. If you are talking about the hard mode ToC fights, then it can only be counted for Twin Valks and Jarraxas. Northrend Beasts and Anub won't count specifically because the point of contention in those encounters is the point at which they stun/knock down/freeze you, eliminating block.

    You can call it an exception all you want, but in the case of the current content, what you call an exception is the actual point of interest for comparison on those specific encounters, so that is really just muddying the water. In northrend beasts, you care about HP/base (though BV can be counted as phys EH here) for the first two parts and HP/AC/base for the last part. For Anub you care about HP/AC/base. For Jaraxxas and Valks, you can care about HP/AC/BV/base

    In earlier content, BV can often be called EH as well, but if someone is going to complain about EH in hardmode ToC (or even the normal mode for that matter), then we need to identify what are the encounters/events of interest and what stats affect those specifically. Acting like stuns/bleeds/freezes/etc. is the exception when considering current content is very misleading. The points where a tank dies in some of those encounters are specifically those points. You can't ignore where it occurs either, but handwaving the places where it doesn't as if they aren't important isn't the way to go.

    EDIT: As another note, we don't always have 102.4%. I know in some of my boss tanking gear, I am often times below that number. Paladins as a rule don't necessarily have that value, it all depends on your gear. It is easy to get, but if you don't have it, then you have to typically sacrifice stamina or something else for it (which kind of retracts the extra health advantage for those paladins). For paladins that have it naturally, that is a different story. In my mixed gear, I have it naturally. In my boss tanking gear I am typically shy, so I can't count BV as EH in my case for example.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    It depends on what you are using as context. If you are talking about the hard mode ToC fights, then it can only be counted for Twin Valks and Jarraxas. Northrend Beasts and Anub won't count specifically because the point of contention in those encounters is the point at which they stun/knock down/freeze you, eliminating block.
    Well, it's not like you just add the BV on top of the Paladin EH anyway. You have to know how many hits you can survive from a boss first to do the calculations. So yeah, like you said/implied it has to be done on a boss by boss basis. For example:

    Icehowl: Worst case is Melee+Stun+Melee. The latter two moves are unavoidable and those 3 hits are generally enough to kill a Paladin so you can only add BV once to the EH for the first Melee swing. You can do the same for Anub as well and so on.

    And FWIW, I loaded my char up in Rawr and socketed pure Stamina and changed into a Prot Paladin (unequipped gun too) with full raid buffs and the difference is around 1.2k health which on it's own is not a big deal really. But like all things in WoW the little stuff adds up. 1.2k health from the Stamina scaling, another ~1.5k (see above) for the Block for bosses and the passive 8% from AD and you get a bigger difference.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    348
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    You can call it an exception all you want, but in the case of the current content, what you call an exception is the actual point of interest for comparison on those specific encounters, so that is really just muddying the water. In northrend beasts, you care about HP/base (though BV can be counted as phys EH here) for the first two parts and HP/AC/base for the last part. For Anub you care about HP/AC/base. For Jaraxxas and Valks, you can care about HP/AC/BV/base
    There is really no need to repeat all that again. Almost NONE of the encounters where tank is in danger of dying is based on melee damage alone, still if we are talking about surviving physical damage, block applies more often than not, just like armor.
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    Acting like stuns/bleeds/freezes/etc. is the exception when considering current content is very misleading. The points where a tank dies in some of those encounters are specifically those points. You can't ignore where it occurs either, but handwaving the places where it doesn't as if they aren't important isn't the way to go.
    No one said its not important. Problem is, that all tanks should be able to tank all encounters, so balance between tanks shouldn't be based on particular encounetrs, but in general. IMO it is better to have four balanced tanks and then create encounetrs for them to tank, then to have four not balanced tanks, then create encounter, and then tune it so long, adding and removing differnet thuings to the point where it works for all combinations of tanks. That is why I need something like EH in general, without looking at specific encounter, to compare one tank against the other in some sort of universal test situation, like PTR Patchwerk. Not to see how they work in specific encounter, but how good are they at surviving physical damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    EDIT: As another note, we don't always have 102.4%. I know in some of my boss tanking gear, I am often times below that number. Paladins as a rule don't necessarily have that value, it all depends on your gear. It is easy to get, but if you don't have it, then you have to typically sacrifice stamina or something else for it (which kind of retracts the extra health advantage for those paladins). For paladins that have it naturally, that is a different story. In my mixed gear, I have it naturally. In my boss tanking gear I am typically shy, so I can't count BV as EH in my case for example.
    Again, as stated before, this comes to paladins at no cost or very small cost. Smaller than their health advantage alone actually. In my tanking gear I would be at 102,4% without aiming for it with Holy Shield, and I am now almost a tier behind.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,023
    The tier doesn't matter honestly. I had it by the end of Naxx. I lost it in Ulduar. Now, I have it in some gear sets and not the others. The cost of it is pretty irrelevant though. We don't typically tradeoff good tanking gear just to make it if we are shy. We generally just pick the best tanking gear we can and if we get it, then great. If not, then oh well. It is easy to get, but it rarely is a specific target anymore and there are cases where paladins are shy. I was like 5-6% shy in the ulduar days.
    Last edited by jere; 10-01-2009 at 05:45 PM.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts