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Thread: Paladin domination?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    It always seemed dishonest to me for warriors to say that block (even with shield block) was terrible then talk about how Paladin's unhittability was OP. On the flip side it seems dishonest for you to call unhittability flavor then say how Warrior block is so much better then pally block.

    I sense a grass is greener argument since I've seen the reverse so many times in Warrior qq threads.
    I said how unhittable is weak on current content, and that the in the only situation where block might matter (Twins dual wield), shield block is better as it provides twice the mitigation of holy shield (Due to doubling block value) for the limited relevant duration. This isn't a grass is greener fallacy, this is just simple analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Also, defensive stance provides less mitigation than Righteous Fury + Shield of the Templar. But that's less than 2% and gearing differences will easily erase that; before people trot out BiS gear being static - by definition BiS gear is not needed to down progression content (assuming some of it is dropping from said progression content).
    Defensive stance = 10% damage reduction.
    Improved Righteous Fury = 6% + 3% multiplicative, which makes it a 8.82% damage reduction. Then paladins can glyph an extra 3% via glyph of divine plea to make it 11.5554%

    Paladin base mitigation is lower and requires a major glyph slot to be competitive, although Warriors currently need glyph slots for competitive shield wall and last stand cooldowns. Damn glyphs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Instead they threw paladins in this weird place between Druid EH and Warrior/DK cooldowns which while flavorful and unique just made them hard to balance around. I think by Icecrown overall survivability will be more inline between the classes. They have more hard numbers from tanks in H-ToC during a variety of mechanisms, Burrowers debuff, Twins dual wield, Icehowl/Anub/Gormok unavoidable bursts, and for some raids massive magic damage from Jaraxxus and friends (raids learning the encounter or just plain bad at interrupting/staying out of fire).
    They seem to make a habit of this for the paladin class (sup ret \o)

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    I said how unhittable is weak on current content, and that the in the only situation where block might matter (Twins dual wield), shield block is better as it provides twice the mitigation of holy shield (Due to doubling block value) for the limited relevant duration. This isn't a grass is greener fallacy, this is just simple analysis.
    I was actually responding more to your comment about the shield block glyph which was where you started generalizing your arguments. You also happened to name one situation where holy shield is trumped by shield block, in an entire instance, which raised a flag.

    Defensive stance = 10% damage reduction.
    Improved Righteous Fury = 6% + 3% multiplicative, which makes it a 8.82% damage reduction. Then paladins can glyph an extra 3% via glyph of divine plea to make it 11.5554%

    Paladin base mitigation is lower and requires a major glyph slot to be competitive, although Warriors currently need glyph slots for competitive shield wall and last stand cooldowns. Damn glyphs.
    Actually I misread the Shield of the Templar reduction as 6% total. But I stand by my original statement that less than 2% mitigation either way is trivial when you consider gearing rng/preference. So I don't buy that the glyph is necessary to be competitive.

    It's possible that I'm missing something by sticking with htoc/10 but I've never felt that the Last Stand glyph was mandatory other than Vezax. And nowadays, it feels like encounter design is moving away from needing 2 minute (on the dot) cooldowns. I still have the glyph of course, but I haven't been using SW on cooldown religiously at any point in H ToC.

    There's so little in ToC that's on a medium-long timer other than things like, Icehowl's charge, Jaraxxus' add spawns, Anub's burrow phase/add spawns. None of which require a tanking cooldown. The closest thing to a medium-long timer attack would be the Twin's vortex/shield, but that's not exactly like surge of darkness/frozen blows/ect.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    I was actually responding more to your comment about the shield block glyph which was where you started generalizing your arguments. You also happened to name one situation where holy shield is trumped by shield block, in an entire instance, which raised a flag.
    I mentioned the one situation in ToC where both blocking is relevant and tank death is likely, all other tank death scenarios in ToC outside of "my healers forgot to heal me" ignore blocking as a mechanic entirely. The fact I only mention one should only be relevant if there is more than one situation to mention, which unless I am mistaken, there is not.

    I also stand by my comment about the glyph of blocking, considering over the course of a fight combined with the newly buffed critical block it may well work out as a solid mitigation glyph. It's just not entirely relevant in today's content since damage over extended periods of time does not kill you. I even alluded to this with my comment that the paladin glyph was better for small sample sizes (i.e. burst damage).

    Other than that I mostly agree with you, although 2 minute shield wall is pretty useful on Anub'arak when he comes up from the submerge and the healers are healing people through the acid DoT. Then again they recently really toned down Anub'arak's burst damage so maybe it's not as relevant anymore. Overall I'm looking forward to some cool encounter design in Icecrown, although they did say that Arthas was going to slap us with Frostmourne really hard D:.

    Holy discussion derailment batman. Um, oh I know, something for the TLDR people!

    TLDR: Warriors don't really need more stamina, paladin balance is really hard, and the health gap is small and meaningless. Cider is secretly Ghostcrawler! Also reading is good for your brain.

  4. #44
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    What about Shammies? Less armor, less EH and they nerfed the shield block ability out of existance. Somebody get Ghostcrawler over here, stat! While he's here we can ask him if there'll be a role for a Warlock tank in Icecrown.



  5. #45
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    Paladins get 14% stamina from talents, warriors get 5%, dks get 6% or 8% if they are blood. Warriors counter this with a gun slot yet still cannot match paladins... Dk;s on the other hand do have the gun hence the class that tkes the most damage has the least hp.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigla View Post
    Paladins get 14% stamina from talents, warriors get 5%, dks get 6% or 8% if they are blood. Warriors counter this with a gun slot yet still cannot match paladins... Dk;s on the other hand do have the gun hence the class that tkes the most damage has the least hp.
    Well Death Knights also typically have higher avoidance levels, plus an array of useful mitigation cooldowns so I'm not sure it's right to say they take the most damage. I can't even tell who's trolling who any more



  7. #47
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    DKs also have higher Stamina than Warriors generally - 6% from frost presence like Warrior vitality, but they also get 2% from the SSG rune - especially so if Blood spec.

  8. #48
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    Yep finally after all the discussion everyone is on the same page there is not a huge difference in any of the tanks but some adjustment will be needed going forward.

    Throw one into the mix for going forward standardize the stamina base between pally's and warriors get rid of the stupid libram and let us have a gun ... come on GC that libram crap is retarded anyhow.

    The real question for pally's is the AD overpowered. I hate it on my pally I would have preferred something I could use pre-emptive of damage rather than something that is outside my control. Everyone talks about how wonderful it is but they forget it's on an uncontrolled CD so you get belted into the AD zone which was a small spike which you may have even expected the dam thing procs you didnt need it but it procs anyhow. 1 min later when you really really do need it well it's in CD.

    The funny thing I find now is since the nerf I actually think its more powerful because you dont get false triggers as high up your HP pool. Actually if they could drop it another 5% I would be really happy.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  9. #49
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    If AD proced, you needed it.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vorla View Post
    If AD proced, you needed it.
    Quoted for truth. If it procced, it meas that you'd be eating floor without it.

    You could also take the point of view that if it procs for no "good reason" (ie no "special ability") something went wrong, and you can asking questions of your healers. Myself, I view unintended AD procs as a failures.

  11. #51
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    Hand of Salvation is a cooldown that a Paladin has available that nobody mentioned. It puts a Paladin tank at 2 use abilities + a passive guardian spirit one. Debating the merits of it versus Last Stand or Shield Block gets to be fairly difficult. I will say that it stacks really well with AD.

    It does have threat generation downsides. You take a tank generating 2k or more threat than their nearest competitor and they probably have some threat they can burn, since the encounters are tuned to the TPS short bus tanks.

    Raw HP pools for Druids are way bigger. EH isn't everything, especially if you are basing it off physical damage attacks and not only looking at AD type effects. Almost everything bad nowadays is a huge magic spike attack. If the hit point pools keep going up and the magic spike damage continues to be the tank death scenario you'll see Druids become more popular. Right now it's not too noticable but as we start seeing reaching 20k health pool differences you're looking at a 2 shot versus a 3 shot scenario. I don't think the Paladin HP advantage is worth worrying about unless it becomes an issue on a boss where the Paladin can survive 2 hits without healing and a Warrior/DK cannot.

  12. #52
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    I wouldn't personally include Hand of Salvation as a cooldown because, firstly, it requires a Major Glyph slot to actually be used as one and, secondly, it can only be used situationally and in certain fights (it'd be a big no-no on Hodir Hard or Vezax, for example). While you could of course argue that Spell Reflect or Anti-Magic Shell are in the same boat because they're not usable in every fight, at least the only penalty for getting it wrong is a wasted GCD.



  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    Quoted for truth. If it procced, it meas that you'd be eating floor without it.

    You could also take the point of view that if it procs for no "good reason" (ie no "special ability") something went wrong, and you can asking questions of your healers. Myself, I view unintended AD procs as a failures.
    Correct and I can sort out what went wrong with the the healers.

    The problem post proc is

    While you have the Ardent Defender debuff, the damage reduction portion no longer takes effect.

    Thats 2 min with no damage reduction available so you got belted hard enough to put you into AD and now probably face the same damage without even the damage reduction.

    My raid history so far is I have had AD proc and survived exactly 0 times after it. It would have to be a fairly minor glitch like a healer being asleep for you to survive because they have to keep you up without your damage reduction post the proc.

    In the end I still ended up on the floor.
    Last edited by uglybbtoo; 09-29-2009 at 07:03 PM.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  14. #54
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    For what it's worth, and as anecdotal as it sounds, I've had AD proc and lived to see the end of the fight several times I can remember. This is mostly in PuG's (25's) though, where your healers may well lose focus for one second which is the second in between you dying to AD and the heal landing, taking you to 50% and safe country again - melee DPS eating three orbs in short succession made my AD proc on Twins the first time I killed them, but healers were on top of things and kept me up the rest of the fight. In guild-run ten mans, I generally don't live to see the end of the fight when AD procs, but that's because by then I'm the only one standing.

    The life-saving portion of the talent is worth a lot more in terms of not wiping than the damage reduction one. Making your healers aware of AD proccing so they can keep you up is safer than actually dying unpredicted and hoping that the other tank picks your boss/add up in time.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    While you have the Ardent Defender debuff, the damage reduction portion no longer takes effect.
    Erm, as far as I know, you are totally wrong here. If bloody eu login server is working, Ill try to test it ingame.

  16. #56
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    That statement is 100% correct. For two minutes after AD procs (IE prevents your death and returns you to 30% health) you will have the AD debuff that negates the "normal" effect of the talent that reduces all damage taken below 35% by 20%.

  17. #57
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    AFAIK that was only a rumor on PTR and confirmed some time ago to not be the case. Would be interesting to know otherwise, but I seem to remember Lore or some other Paladin mentioning it was confirmed as still working after the proc in the late PTR stages.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mert View Post
    I wouldn't personally include Hand of Salvation as a cooldown because, firstly, it requires a Major Glyph slot to actually be used as one and, secondly, it can only be used situationally and in certain fights (it'd be a big no-no on Hodir Hard or Vezax, for example). While you could of course argue that Spell Reflect or Anti-Magic Shell are in the same boat because they're not usable in every fight, at least the only penalty for getting it wrong is a wasted GCD.
    It's not the only cooldown that requires a major glyph. All the DK talent cooldowns require one, and both the warrior ones are mandatory for most warriors as well. Once you pass 20-30% of the bosses health, generally the tank is so far ahead on threat that salv's threat reduction is a non issue.

    With continued support from hunters and rogues, hand of salvation effectively gives paladins 2 cooldowns at the cost of 1 major glyph and 0 extra talent points (if all sacred duty did was give you 8% stamina you'd take it just for that).

    The main problem for me with the health disparity of paladins is that the non proc effect of AD equates to a flat 7% hp bonus that just doesn't show on your health bar. So not only do they have adequate cooldowns, they have 9% more hit points than other plate tanks. Plus, not for nothing, but 200 dodge rating for the libram/sigil with almost 100% uptime is way more than what is offered on any gun slot for a warrior in my eyes.


    Compare sacred duty to improved disciplines... Compare AD to Will of the Necropolis... /sigh

    /qq on

    From a warrior tanking standpoint, the prot tree has part of the same problem it has always had, even if it has been improved to a degree since LK. Hybrid spec's are streamlined and pretty much spend themselves, while the warrior trees remain bloated for tanking and many talents still need to be trimmed or merged.

    /qq off

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akeber View Post
    That statement is 100% correct. For two minutes after AD procs (IE prevents your death and returns you to 30% health) you will have the AD debuff that negates the "normal" effect of the talent that reduces all damage taken below 35% by 20%.
    Wrong.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...009_151857.jpg

    The "reduce all damage taken under 35% health by 15%" portion of the ability works even after the selfres procs.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    Wrong.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...009_151857.jpg

    The "reduce all damage taken under 35% health by 15%" portion of the ability works even after the selfres procs.
    Hmmm, I didn't read where they specifically removed that "down side" to the proc on the previous PTR. You are correct, it's been gone for a while. The debuff simply means that you can't be "saved" again for another two minutes, nothing more.

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