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Thread: Paladin domination?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Ok I wont even argue the point but will accept Hengist's statement druids are very close or equal to the EH of paladins why aren't we seeing a movement to druid tanks?
    Don't know, don't care. Maybe because druid tanking is so boring? You always look the same, and your rotation is very, very simple. But why druid tanks are unattractive to players, that is Blizzard's problem, not mine - I just do not want them increasing druid tanks population at the cost of me being the inferior tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    The popularity of paladins was also in the face of prior to the patch paladins couldnt even tank alot of the end stuff and all they did was slightly rework AD and suddenly they are massively OP and thats why the numbers are increasing ?????
    1. Paladins were viable, just suboptimal choice for those encounter when you needed cooldowns often. You could just go with outside cooldowns. Clumsy, annoying, but doable. As doable as all content is doable with warrior tank now.
    2. Cooldowns aren't everything. Paladins are best single target threat, very good aoe threat. Those players who weren't exactly interested in challenging DKs for tanking Sartharion 3D or Vezax hard mode were totally fine with lack of second cooldown, or they didn't realize they are not fine until they got there.
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    You negatation of this is hey its real easy to tank a single target as a warrior and yes it is but it is dam hard to mob tank by comparision even you conceeded that. So you want to do heroics (which is where all they all start) which tanks is easier ... paladin by a country mile.
    I don't negate this, I just say the difficulty of playing isn't everything, and that it is not really my problem. What I am interested with, is paladin's advantage over warrior in EH. It has nothing to do with populations or difficulty of playing. I am far from saying that recent increase in the number of paladin tanks is a result of them being OP. I am saying that I think paladins are stronger than warriors based on numbers of damage taken and EH.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Ok I wont even argue the point but will accept Hengist's statement druids are very close or equal to the EH of paladins why aren't we seeing a movement to druid tanks?

    The popularity of paladins was also in the face of prior to the patch paladins couldnt even tank alot of the end stuff and all they did was slightly rework AD and suddenly they are massively OP and thats why the numbers are increasing ?????
    Druid tanks have never been a popular class. This is something GC keeps alluding to when talking about not wanting to change them too much.

    By contrast, Paladins have always been more popular as tanks, but ended up being benched for a lot of Ulduar hard modes (as per GCs statements). Hence the need for a 2nd cooldown.

    Paladins were very popular in Naxx remember (let's ignore Sarth 3d for now). Paladins have also always been a step ahead as far as threat is concerned. So really until Ulduar hard modes there's always been a lot of Paladin tanks.

    The reason paladins started shining in T9 is that ToC introduced a brevy of bosses that stun you. Making cooldown tanking less useful and pure EH tanking more useful. Of course most people in a raid couldn't put their finger on why Paladins survived and Warriors didn't (it's not like you compare against a Druid and see gobs more hp after all).

    Also, just looking at the stamina scaling talents, you can see that Paladin hp scaling would eventually outstrip the native higher base hp that warriors have. This was supposed to be balanced by ranged weapons for warrior tanks. Since the every ranged tank weapon since the shotgun has *less* stamina, it seems inevitable that Paladins are going to pass warriors in stamina, if not already. Although, it also seems possible that the shotgun had too much stamina to begin with (starting warriors farther ahead of paladins on the hp front).

  3. #23
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    Going with your exact argument then

    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    1. Paladins were viable, just suboptimal choice for those encounter when you needed cooldowns often. You could just go with outside cooldowns. Clumsy, annoying, but doable. As doable as all content is doable with warrior tank now.
    2. Cooldowns aren't everything. Paladins are best single target threat, very good aoe threat. Those players who weren't exactly interested in challenging DKs for tanking Sartharion 3D or Vezax hard mode were totally fine with lack of second cooldown, or they didn't realize they are not fine until they got there.
    .
    1. Warriors are viable, just suboptimal choice for those encounter when you need alot of EH. You could just go with outside EH pumps. Clumsy, annoying, but doable. As doable as all content is doable with warrior tank now.

    2. EH isn't everything. Those players who weren't exactly interested in challenging end content will be fine until they get there.

    Guess it will be fixed next patch and then the other tanks can QQ about warriors.

    Sorry couldn't resist that .... I know it was cheap.


    Anyhow got your view and don't think we are contributing much now will let some other views have a go.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Also, just looking at the stamina scaling talents, you can see that Paladin hp scaling would eventually outstrip the native higher base hp that warriors have. This was supposed to be balanced by ranged weapons for warrior tanks. Since the every ranged tank weapon since the shotgun has *less* stamina, it seems inevitable that Paladins are going to pass warriors in stamina, if not already. Although, it also seems possible that the shotgun had too much stamina to begin with (starting warriors farther ahead of paladins on the hp front).
    Yeah that I have noticed on my warrior/pally and I only have a couple of bits T9 not being a hardcore raider.

    I am all for improving warrior tanks I love mine but its seperating out the OMG there is a zillion pally tank issue out which I dont think has anything to do with this.

    I really would like to see a push to get GC and blizz to increase the base damage of thunderclap and maybe make it 100% hit but reduce the AP scaling. It would help low warrior tanks immensely and shifts nothing in terms of overall damage when geared. For warriors starting out in heroics AOE tanking is a nightmare and it has always stunned me they couldnt make that change.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  5. #25
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    @Muffin Man: It happened already. With my tanking gear (3 x ilvl 245, 4 x ilvl 232, rest items 226, dual stamina trinket from BRD, JC/BS, epic socketing for socket bonuses, engi gun with epic gem. 38631 unbuffed health), paladin would have 38844. When buffed, I would be at 44231 (no Commanding included since it doesnt scale anyway) and paladin at 44784. And my gear is hardly up to date.

    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    1. Warriors are viable, just suboptimal choice for those encounter when you need alot of EH. You could just go with outside EH pumps. Clumsy, annoying, but doable. As doable as all content is doable with warrior tank now.
    Thats what I said in my first post, so why you are telling that to me? I know warriors are viable tanks, I just consider them being suboptimal. While you said that paladins COULDN'T tank a lot of high end stuff, which is simply wrong, that is why I corrected you. I never claimed that warriors CAN'T tank stuff now, they can do it just fine, its just easier with paladin or druid. Just like it was easier with DKs before that.
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    2. EH isn't everything. Those players who weren't exactly interested in challenging end content will be fine until they get there.
    While EH isn't everything, it is a single most important thing tanking is about in current WoW. There is no denying to that, its enough to see how people gem or enchant. Basic job of the tank is survival. Basic way of increasing you chance of survival is increasing EH.
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Guess it will be fixed next patch and then the other tanks can QQ about warriors.
    If that would happen, it would be yet another temporary solution, making yet another part of tank players unhappy and feeling mistreated. Sure, it would work for me better than current situation, but it would suck for everyone else. How about balancing the tanks for a change, and giving it a try. GC just says people won't be ever happy, and that we will fight about 2% difference just like we are fightning over 20% difference now. Maybe. But why not give it a try and see first?
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Sorry couldn't resist that .... I know it was cheap.
    Hehe, not exactly, since I never claimed that situation of paladins before 3.2 was fine. Nah, it was very much the same as warriors are now.
    Last edited by Hengist; 09-25-2009 at 02:50 AM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Also, just looking at the stamina scaling talents, you can see that Paladin hp scaling would eventually outstrip the native higher base hp that warriors have. This was supposed to be balanced by ranged weapons for warrior tanks. Since the every ranged tank weapon since the shotgun has *less* stamina, it seems inevitable that Paladins are going to pass warriors in stamina, if not already. Although, it also seems possible that the shotgun had too much stamina to begin with (starting warriors farther ahead of paladins on the hp front).
    It's worth noting that higher scaling isn't necessarily indicative of an impending disparity. Paladins have had their scaling numbers changed multiple times. They used to have higher numbers than they do now. When gear gets high enough that a disparity will arise, the devs modify the scaling. If numbers were left alone, then things can certainly get out of whack, but typically things are not left alone and talents/scaling are modified to change with the new content/gear.

    The point of disagreement is usually how much difference is considered a disparity. For some any point where class X can have more hps than have class Y is considered a disparity. For others, a certain percentage difference is the defining value. For some it is a flat value.

  7. #27
    For some, it is whether they fumble with Tank X and don't with Tank Y, anecdotal evidence. Which is more often based in specific tank player difference, or the raid set-up.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaggi View Post
    Seems to be one of those "grass is always greener on the side of the fence" issues. Tanks of any class are doing their job in the top guilds without question.

    As a tankadin I enjoy my threat and the feeling of beeing "less spiky". But I long for the mobility and stuns/silences when I see warriors.

    I adore bears that seem to be able to strike behind their backs with easy while running around like beeing on catnip.

    DKs not on my list... but that may be a personal "I belong to the light" issue...

    Cheers!
    skaggi
    Wow I created a monster!

    Anyway, I believe I am in a top guild and I do my job there three times a week without... well before Gormak nerf we had issues with me being insta gibbed under 1 second. Appart from that messy story we are doing fine. I have to break it to you though, your "Grass is greener on the other side" argument does not really hold up.

    Fact is that Paladins have more health than Warriors & DKs in 245+ gear and since it is % scaling it will just continue to increase as gear gets better, im sure you understand that. Fact is also that Paladins have better EH than say warriors.

    Now you mention stuns, I mainly talk about bosses since I could not care less about trash... what trash? TOTC doesn't even have trash . Let me break it down yo, Concussive Blow, Shockwave, Heroic Throw(gag order), Imp. Revenge, Disarm - None of them usually works on bosses. That leaves me with Demoralizing Shout, Thunderclap and... Charge/Intercept. You have the possibility of the same debuffs and instead of Charge/intercept you have 15% run speed. You also have a bunch of other things I dont, like HoP and Avangers Shield.

    I value my "toolbox" just as much as anyone does but for boss tanking (heroic) its always about taking as little damage as possible(mitigation), being able to take as much as possible before dying(EH) and avoiding a certain amount of damage(Avoidance).

    All these three criterias are currently being headed by the Paladin. Combine this with having the highest healthpool well, that makes me alittle sad, especially since the gap becomes wider as gear gets better. Thats the whole reason for the thread. I can accept having worser avoidance and possibly worser mitigation aswell but I can't accept having less health, that is just absurd.

    Best regards.

  9. #29
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    Paladins don't necessarily have more (or less avoidance) than warriors. It all depends on how you gear, but avoidance levels should be around the same given equal gearing.

    It seems wierd to care who has more health or not. What we should care about is making sure the EH is similar enough (which it isn't in my opinion). Fretting over having less health than someone though is pointless. Someone out of the 4 tanks is going to have less health than the other tanks (unless you make all 4 tank classes carbon copies of each other). What you should be worried about is making sure they are balanced, rather than having warriors ahead specifically. Warrior health pools are pretty similar to paladin health pools in similar gear. Yes paladins will be more in some cases, but the divergence isn't much. Where paladins do have a noticeable advantage is mitigation. Part of that is to make up for the lack of a cooldown, when combined with the GS effect, but it is probably still a bit over the top.

    EDIT: As a note, so you don't misunderstand my intentions, I would be fine with warriors having more health than paladins to balance out AD, for example. However, the point is health isn't everything (EH is more important than simply health) and being ahead or behind shouldn't matter as long as things are close (which they aren't).

  10. #30
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    [quote=jere;292886]Paladins don't necessarily have more (or less avoidance) than warriors. It all depends on how you gear, but avoidance levels should be around the same given equal gearing. [/quite]
    Its basically gunslot vs libram. Marginal difference at best. Some hit here, some more avoidance there.
    Quote Originally Posted by jere View Post
    .EDIT: As a note, so you don't misunderstand my intentions, I would be fine with warriors having more health than paladins to balance out AD, for example. However, the point is health isn't everything (EH is more important than simply health) and being ahead or behind shouldn't matter as long as things are close (which they aren't).
    I think adimittig that Eh is something that should be balanced on its own is enoughl we should expect from an educated paladin, and nothing more is needed. Of course health alone is an epeen factor when you try to join "link [Epic] VoA pug", but I think once EH would be equal tanks really could spread that concept between people enough to make it more significant than health on its own.

  11. #31
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    YAY MATH

    In terms of health differences, assuming around 2900 stamina from gear in this tier (This is from armorying one of my guildies quickly as I was ret)

    Warrior: 2900 * 1.06 = 3074
    Paladin: (2900 - 64 from having no badge thrown weapon) * 1.08 * 1.06 = 3246

    Difference: 172 stamina

    Assuming the ~1.1K base health difference, the paladin will have around 600hp extra unbuffed. Potentially less, but I don't know what the difference is between Warrior and Paladin base stamina.

    Projecting forward, and assuming Blizzard keeps piling on the stamina, we can assume around 3400 stamina from gear in Icecrown. I'll leave the Warrior's gun slot as the same value as I've no idea what Blizzard want to do with those.

    Warrior: 3400 * 1.06 = 3604
    Paladin: (3400 - 64) * 1.08 * 1.06 = 3819

    Difference: 215 Stamina

    2150 hp, minus 1100 (Warrior base health advantage) is 1050hp difference unbuffed.

    Now if we assume the following raid buffs:

    Improved Power word Fortitude: 165 * 1.3 = 214.5
    Improved Mark of the Wild: 37 * 1.4 = 51.8
    Blessing of Kings: 10% multiplier
    Strength food: 40 stamina
    Commanding shout has no difference in effect for the warrior or paladin.

    Warrior: (3604 + 214.5 + 51.8 + 40) * 1.1 = 4301.33 stamina raid buffed
    Paladin: (3819 + 214.5 + 51.8 + 40) * 1.1 = 4537.83 stamina raid buffed

    Difference: Paladin has an extra 236.5 stamina raid buffed.

    So 2365hp, but then subtract 1100 for base health difference.

    Icecrown raid buffed, paladin has 1265hp extra.

    That's it. And don't forget that raid buffed, you'll have 60k+ hp (Add on base health, plus base stamina, plus flask, plus improved commanding shout). The difference is frankly totally trivial in relevant scenarios and I'm surprised there's this much whining about it, unless people are somehow thinking we play on an infinite gear scaling continuum.

    Am I missing something or is this issue totally overblown?

    In fact, screw it, lets imagine a crazy Sunwell 2 scenario. Cataclysm got eaten by Blizzard's dog so they need to start over and hand it in late.

    Assumed stamina from gear: 3900

    Warrior: 3900 * 1.06 = 4134
    Paladin: (3900 - 64) * 1.08 * 1.06 = 4391

    Difference: 257 Stamina

    2570 hp, minus 1100 (Warrior base health advantage) is 1470 difference unbuffed.

    Now if we assume the following raid buffs:

    Improved Power word Fortitude: 165 * 1.3 = 214.5
    Improved Mark of the Wild: 37 * 1.4 = 51.8
    Blessing of Kings: 10% multiplier
    Strength food: 40 stamina

    Warrior: (4134 + 214.5 + 51.8 + 40) * 1.1 = 4884.33
    Paladin: (4391 + 214.5 + 51.8 + 40) * 1.1 = 5167.03

    Difference: 282.7 stamina

    2827hp - 1100 = 1727hp difference in raid buffed hp in Sunwell 2 (Although Brutallus 2.0 will kick your ass no matter how much HP you have!).

    Considering that you'd be rocking around with 64K or more HP in Sunwell 2. I would personally deem this to be "close enough" to not worry about it too much. Now bear stamina scaling - that stuff's totally whacky. Fun to watch though.

  12. #32
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    Now when you factor in AD, EH starts to get a little out of line, but I'll leave that for Blizzard to worry about (If it becomes relevant).

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    Its basically gunslot vs libram. Marginal difference at best. Some hit here, some more avoidance there.
    Just be mindful that not all paladins find that libram to be of much worth. You are just as likely to see a paladin using either the block value libram or the STR libram. Paladins come from a world where we dedicated certain slots to certain tasks (dating back to when we had to have spell damage weapons/plate to tank). Some paladins will see the libram slot as a threat slot (and some won't). I myself don't think the dodge libram is all that bad, but I personally won't be picking it up until I have bought all my other badge gear. I find more value in the tradeoff of putting a dps/tps style libram there, especially after the nerfs we just got. But that is a personal decision on my part.

    I think most paladins agree we have more EH. Part of that is to offset our cooldown deficiency (when paired with the GS effect). I am not sure if that was the fair way to go given the content, but at the moment it is what it is. Taking away all the extra EH would leave us kind of behind the other tanks, so they would need to rework AD.

    Honestly, what I had hoped they would do was tie the old 30% reduction to the GS effect, so that when the GS effect procc'ed we would get the 30% damage reduction for some amount of time (what ever is good). That way, it wouldn't have been a strait EH increase (could only occur every 2 minutes), it would have been more cooldown-like, and it might not have been nerfed down to 20%. Not everyone would have liked that idea, but then I think it would have been better for balance than the AD we have now.

  14. #34
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    at the end of the day, yes paladins have a higher scaling issue at the moment, however its really not that significant.

    Ghostcrawler came right out and said that (paraphrased) "if you notice that one class has a significant scaling issue that will come into play when you reach 5000 unbuffed Strength, thats not really an issue for us because you aren't going to reach that level of stats anytime soon, and we will tweak those values before you do"

    So, I'm sure once we reach Icecrown, if paladin stamina scaling becomes more of a major issue, Blizzard will look at it. Or maybe they won't look at it till Cataclysm. But as soon as it needs looking at, they'll do so.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    Potentially less, but I don't know what the difference is between Warrior and Paladin base stamina.
    159 for a warrior, 145 for a paladin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    Am I missing something or is this issue totally overblown?
    Static damage mitigation: almost the same, however the difference is in paladin's favour

    More health on paladin.

    AD

    Possibility to achieve "unhittable" by paladin at low/no cost against very big sacrifices by warrior

    When you look at each of these alone, indeed differences seem to be rather silly. But how many small advantages one class can have over the other? Can't we add all of those small differences together and say it is significant in total?

  16. #36
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    Considering current relevant content (ToC), unhittable is fairly weak against stuff that will kill you because they're nearly all stuns or magic damage (or Gormok lolbleeds). The exception to this is when one of the twins is dual wielding whilst the other is healing, and even in this situation shield block is better than holy shield due to the short duration of the event. Overall I would leave being unhittable as class flavour rather than any particular advantage or disadvantage.

    Paladin static damage mitigation is worse than Warriors baseline and requires a major glyph to make it slightly better. The comparable Warrior glyph scales BV by 10% for extra bock value to grant threat and mitigation, and is potentially better overall considering the change to critical block (Although only for overall damage taken, paladin glyph is better for small samples generally).

    On the flip side though, Warriors have Sunder Armour, an AoE attack speed slow, AoE AP reduction, vastly increased mobility, an actual spell interrupt and buff shouts. Then again paladins have cleanse/hand of freedom, blessings and hand of salvation/sacrifice.

    Realistically I'd say that AD is the only real point of contention, but at the moment it's a necessary divergence due to Blizzard wanting greater class flavour (whilst remaining viable) rather than a big grey simulator box of a game. Even then, I'd still say it'd be way less of an issue as long as Warrior last stand / shield wall get their cooldowns reduced to reasonable levels. Even Jere's suggestion still has paladins with higher amounts of EH until AD procs, with the buffed extra AD reduction making it less likely to proc.

    It's a tough nut to crack unless you just give up and swap AD with Ardent Last Stand, but that's tedious in the extreme and ruins the whole "Guardian of the Light" feel.

  17. #37
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    On balance though, as I just re-read the first post as I submitted my reply. I'd say the original premise of this thread has been fairly debunked. There is no massive health gap worth mentioning.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    Considering current relevant content (ToC), unhittable is fairly weak against stuff that will kill you because they're nearly all stuns or magic damage (or Gormok lolbleeds). The exception to this is when one of the twins is dual wielding whilst the other is healing, and even in this situation shield block is better than holy shield due to the short duration of the event. Overall I would leave being unhittable as class flavour rather than any particular advantage or disadvantage.
    Algalon is still relevant content, and unhittable is awesome on him. Anub adds are relevant content and unhittable is good on them too. Unhittable is yet another increase to paladin's EH, so it should be included in comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    Paladin static damage mitigation is worse than Warriors baseline and requires a major glyph to make it slightly better. The comparable Warrior glyph scales BV by 10% for extra bock value to grant threat and mitigation, and is potentially better overall considering the change to critical block (Although only for overall damage taken, paladin glyph is better for small samples generally).
    There is no point in comapring one glyph to another. Paladin's static mitigation is tiny bit higher than warriors, and blocking value is also usually higher (not really sure about that, just assuming from the usual posted values) and used more often mitigation-wise. Doesn't matter if the glyph alone is better or not, if still paladins come out better in both relevent cathegories (passive static mitigation and blocking).
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    On the flip side though, Warriors have Sunder Armour, an AoE attack speed slow, AoE AP reduction, vastly increased mobility, an actual spell interrupt and buff shouts. Then again paladins have cleanse/hand of freedom, blessings and hand of salvation/sacrifice.
    We got toolbox, you got toolbox. While raid utility is a good and nice thing, tank is here mostly to take damage and survive it
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    It's a tough nut to crack unless you just give up and swap AD with Ardent Last Stand, but that's tedious in the extreme and ruins the whole "Guardian of the Light" feel.
    That would be very boring. I like Jere's suggestion, or simply clicky AD with 30% reduction below 35% and one time res included in the duration. Works fine, requires some interaction, and is reasonably differnt than other classes cds. I do not understand why they didnt made it that way in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    On balance though, as I just re-read the first post as I submitted my reply. I'd say the original premise of this thread has been fairly debunked. There is no massive health gap worth mentioning.
    There is no massive health gap worth mentioning, but health is just a number to make people in VoA pugs go :O. What counts is EH. There is no massive EH gap either, but there are four small gaps, all in paladin's favour. All added together, they cover the massive* health gap mentioned by OP.

    * - of course massive is a subjective term, I am just repeating after Maelstrom who refered to 3k health gap mentioned by OP as massive.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzobee View Post
    Wow I created a monster!

    Anyway, I believe I am in a top guild and I do my job there three times a week without... well before Gormak nerf we had issues with me being insta gibbed under 1 second. Appart from that messy story we are doing fine. I have to break it to you though, your "Grass is greener on the other side" argument does not really hold up.
    Hmmmm. Apart from the math I still think my point is quite viable.

    Before they nerfed DKs it was all over the place with "they have so many CDs on a short timer and to much dodge and armor and what the hell".

    Now it's ololadins on top for a short duration to come. And I think it's going to be short since they nerfed us already and there are no signs that they are going to stop at the momen.

    Maybe next month it's all the other way around.

    And even now I can see lots of encounters where alone charge/intervene would be godly. E.g. I just feel like a dead weight when tanking the fire worm during northrend beasts while our warriors intervene like young gods to the poisoned melees.

    <grin>O warriors! Safe your rage for the mobs and spare the bible boys!</grin>

    Cheers!
    skaggi

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    Considering current relevant content (ToC), unhittable is fairly weak against stuff that will kill you because they're nearly all stuns or magic damage (or Gormok lolbleeds). The exception to this is when one of the twins is dual wielding whilst the other is healing, and even in this situation shield block is better than holy shield due to the short duration of the event. Overall I would leave being unhittable as class flavour rather than any particular advantage or disadvantage.

    Paladin static damage mitigation is worse than Warriors baseline and requires a major glyph to make it slightly better. The comparable Warrior glyph scales BV by 10% for extra bock value to grant threat and mitigation, and is potentially better overall considering the change to critical block (Although only for overall damage taken, paladin glyph is better for small samples generally).
    It always seemed dishonest to me for warriors to say that block (even with shield block) was terrible then talk about how Paladin's unhittability was OP. On the flip side it seems dishonest for you to call unhittability flavor then say how Warrior block is so much better then pally block.

    I sense a grass is greener argument since I've seen the reverse so many times in Warrior qq threads.

    Also, defensive stance provides less mitigation than Righteous Fury + Shield of the Templar. But that's less than 2% and gearing differences will easily erase that; before people trot out BiS gear being static - by definition BiS gear is not needed to down progression content (assuming some of it is dropping from said progression content).

    On the flip side though, Warriors have Sunder Armour, an AoE attack speed slow, AoE AP reduction, vastly increased mobility, an actual spell interrupt and buff shouts. Then again paladins have cleanse/hand of freedom, blessings and hand of salvation/sacrifice.
    You missed auras, passive AP reduction and passive attack speed slow for paladins (the latter two require speccing of course, but realistically so does TC for warriors). You also missed Vigilance for warriors.

    But both lists you mentioned here really *are* flavor. Although Sunder Armor is a little too unique since outside of burn phases it's just about impossible to get rogues to Expose Armor and in a 10 man if you don't have a warrior tank it's no guarantee that you'll have a dps warrior (let alone one who can still pull his dps weight while sundering).

    Realistically I'd say that AD is the only real point of contention, but at the moment it's a necessary divergence due to Blizzard wanting greater class flavour (whilst remaining viable) rather than a big grey simulator box of a game. Even then, I'd still say it'd be way less of an issue as long as Warrior last stand / shield wall get their cooldowns reduced to reasonable levels. Even Jere's suggestion still has paladins with higher amounts of EH until AD procs, with the buffed extra AD reduction making it less likely to proc.
    I agree with this. I think this is similar to the DK/Druid problem that Blizz had pre-3.1 where DK's were too survivable when blowing their cooldowns (which were also available often enough to counter times boss abilities). And Druids were just passively too survivable that they soaked up everything thrown at them.

    In this case, from the paladin perspective - DK/Warrior cooldowns are too good (they still are much better since the AD proc isn't a true cooldown). While Druid EH is still much better.

    Instead they threw paladins in this weird place between Druid EH and Warrior/DK cooldowns which while flavorful and unique just made them hard to balance around. I think by Icecrown overall survivability will be more inline between the classes. They have more hard numbers from tanks in H-ToC during a variety of mechanisms, Burrowers debuff, Twins dual wield, Icehowl/Anub/Gormok unavoidable bursts, and for some raids massive magic damage from Jaraxxus and friends (raids learning the encounter or just plain bad at interrupting/staying out of fire).

    It's a tough nut to crack unless you just give up and swap AD with Ardent Last Stand, but that's tedious in the extreme and ruins the whole "Guardian of the Light" feel.
    Again agree, this is a bit unneeded. Paladins will have better EH to make up for having worse cooldowns, that's balanceable (unless every boss is like Vezax...).

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