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Thread: Paladin domination?

  1. #1
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    Paladin domination?

    Hello.

    Well im a fairly good geared warrior tank in a decent raiding guild and ill start of by saying that I enjoy my class alot. However I have recently started to see more and more Paladins in the same gear as me that usually have about 2-3k more health. I do know that we have a 1000ish extra base health on Paladins and that we have a gun slot that gives us 70 stamina (at best) more. However I am alittle worried about their % stamina scaling as compared to Warriors and say Death Knights.

    In full T8.5 the difference wasn't huge, maybe only 500-1000 health or so but now with 245-258 quality gear the gap is getting wider and wider and ultimately in Icecrown my guess is that we will be looking at 5k+ health difference between the three plate classes at least. Most MTs and tanks in progressing raiding guilds know that EH is by far the most important factor when tanking "heroic" encounters - Is there anyone else worried about this?

    I am not one to advocate nerfs for other classes, if anything I would like to see Warriors & DKs upped to 10% stamina scaling to counter this growing issue.

    I don't think im the only tank who has noticed this, any ideas & comments on how to tackle this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzobee View Post
    Hello.

    Well im a fairly good geared warrior tank in a decent raiding guild and ill start of by saying that I enjoy my class alot. However I have recently started to see more and more Paladins in the same gear as me that usually have about 2-3k more health. I do know that we have a 1000ish extra base health on Paladins and that we have a gun slot that gives us 70 stamina (at best) more. However I am alittle worried about their % stamina scaling as compared to Warriors and say Death Knights.

    In full T8.5 the difference wasn't huge, maybe only 500-1000 health or so but now with 245-258 quality gear the gap is getting wider and wider and ultimately in Icecrown my guess is that we will be looking at 5k+ health difference between the three plate classes at least. Most MTs and tanks in progressing raiding guilds know that EH is by far the most important factor when tanking "heroic" encounters - Is there anyone else worried about this?

    I am not one to advocate nerfs for other classes, if anything I would like to see Warriors & DKs upped to 10% stamina scaling to counter this growing issue.

    I don't think im the only tank who has noticed this, any ideas & comments on how to tackle this?
    Paladins just took a big EH nerf with the change to Ardent defender (which, if you're not familiar with the class, wasn't even visible to most people - but ardent defender at 15% was insanely powerful). While I hate losing the toughness, it was definitely deserved. I'd give it a few weeks to see how it plays out since blizz is definitely aware of your concerns.

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    I usually find that Warriors have around the same health pool as I do with similar gear, but I'm not 100% sure so I took a look on wow-heroes at the best-geared Warrior and Paladin on the server.

    The Warrior has a gear score of 2880 and an average iLevel of 243.18. He has 41,196 unbuffed HP.

    The Paladin has a gear score of 2821 and an average iLevel of 238.65. He has 41,969 unbuffed HP.

    I think it'd be safe to say that those two are close enough in average iLevel to be more or less in "equivalent gear" and the difference in unbuffed HP is 773. The Paladin is also using Super Health on Chest whereas the Warrior isn't.

    I guess there is a slight difference in the scaling but I'm not convinced the gap is as wide as you say in your post. Obviously two tanks is not a great sample size, so I thought I'd compare myself to whichever Prot Warrior on the server has the closest gear score to me.

    I have a gear score of 2592 and an average iLevel of 226.53. I have 38,354 unbuffed.

    The closest I could find on my server to my gear score was a Warrior with 2586. His average iLevel is 227.06. He has 38,246 unbuffed.

    To be honest, it seems to me that it's more likely gem, enchant and trinket choices that are causing any major disparity rather than gear scaling that much better for Paladins. I could be wrong and it does seem that a Paladin is typically slightly higher with equivalent gear, but we're talking about a difference of a gem or two, not thousands of HP.

    I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to be argumentative, but having taken a quick look through some data from my own server, I figured I'd add it in to the discussion.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Mert View Post
    I think it'd be safe to say that those two are close enough in average iLevel to be more or less in "equivalent gear" and the difference in unbuffed HP is 773.
    Gear score and average iLvl doesn't tell you how they gem/enchant, which means you can't use it to compare max EH values. That needs to be taken into consideration if you're going to bother mathing it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phaze View Post
    Gear score and average iLvl doesn't tell you how they gem/enchant, which means you can't use it to compare max EH values. That needs to be taken into consideration if you're going to bother mathing it out.
    To be fair he is wearing 2 stam trinkets with pure stam gems in almost every socket and is JC/mining. So you can't say it is because he did not gear for EH that other tanks are close to him.

    It is still not perfect but he should be getting a pretty fair evaluation by the comparison.

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    Health pools can be deceiving if not considering other abilities. For example: Critical block just got buffed to (max level) 60%!!! That is HUGE for warrior mitigation. Don't think more health means better if the warrior can mitigate more damage than the Paladin. HP isn't everything when it comes to tanking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    Health pools can be deceiving if not considering other abilities. For example: Critical block just got buffed to (max level) 60%!!! That is HUGE for warrior mitigation. Don't think more health means better if the warrior can mitigate more damage than the Paladin. HP isn't everything when it comes to tanking.
    That post is really confusing. Critical block isnt by any means huge to warriors mitigation, maybe during shield block uptime or in block set, but normal critical blocks still happen very rarely and remain pretty insignificant.

    Also, health pools indeed can be deceiving. It is worth to add that paladins also can easily reach 102,4% total block + avoidance, so they will block way more reliably than warriors. And ofc there is also Ardent Defender, which also increases EH and mitigates so damage.

    Do paladins have more health than warriors? Yes.
    Do paladins have more EH than warriors? Yes.
    Do paladins mitigate more damage than warriors? Yes.
    Do those difference make ANY encounter in game, including heroic and hard modes, tankable by paladin, and untankable by warrior? No.

    All tanks being viable is a fact. But if that also means they are balanced, that is up to everyone to judge for himself.

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    This discussion is pretty meaningless unless we get some characters from the OP to compare, otherwise it's just another "They has a bigger number than me! QQ" thread.

    In my general experience I would say that the difference is very small when you compare genuinely similarly geared tanks. That plus paladins do need fairly high stamina to make the damage reduction from ardent defender worth it.

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    Agreed this is just QQ I have both warrior and pally in almost identical gear and can't notice any real diff in survability. Yes my pally has 1K HP more than my warrior because it runs around self buffed with bosanc on otherwise it actually has less HP than the warrior.

    As others have said profession and gem/chanting choices will change values more than the class difference.

    The pally is easier to play but in most situations PVE, PVP except mass aoe tanking give me the warrior anyday the vast array of stuns, silences and reflecting can stop massive damage versus pally's one stun/silence move.

    Why I think you are seeing more pally tanks is they are easier to play nothing to do with survival.

    I am bored with pally tank it is simply too easy to play I have long said it is one of the few classes/spec left with a rotation rather than priority control of spells. The fact is you can make a 6sec CD macro and 9sec CD macro bind them to mousewheel and simply pull a mob a tank them rolling the mousewheel backwd and fwd.

    IMO they need to change the spell mechanics slightly so pally's have procs to worry about and it isnt a simple rotation style play but a spell priority style play like every other class/spec.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phaze View Post
    Gear score and average iLvl doesn't tell you how they gem/enchant, which means you can't use it to compare max EH values. That needs to be taken into consideration if you're going to bother mathing it out.
    Well that was kind of my point - that if the OP is really noticing a huge difference in HP between Warriors and equivalent-geared Paladins then it's likely more down to gem/enchant/trinket choices than a straight issue of Paladin HP scaling out of control by comparison.

    Of course it's not an exact science, but at the levels I picked in my thread (the very best on the server and the kind of mid-to-high-point progression level where I'm personally at) all the tanks are fully aware of EH being king for current content so we're all in dual stam with EH-focussed gems and enchants. Sure there will be differences but at the upper end of the progression tanks on my server, there's not really anybody in block sets or what have you.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    That plus paladins do need fairly high stamina to make the damage reduction from ardent defender worth it.
    One would think that tank not having AD would need more stamina to compensate Oo
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    The pally is easier to play but in most situations PVE, PVP except mass aoe tanking give me the warrior anyday the vast array of stuns, silences and reflecting can stop massive damage versus pally's one stun/silence move.

    Why I think you are seeing more pally tanks is they are easier to play nothing to do with survival.
    Situations where you really need that high amounts of EH are situations when you, the tank, can die to boss damage. So stuns, silence and reflecting won't help you in any way - those abilities work on trash and in heroics, and tanks do not maximize EH for trash and heroics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    One would think that tank not having AD would need more stamina to compensate Oo .
    OK LETS GO BACK TO WHY PALADINS GOT AD REVAMP

    You have multiple CD's a paladin has 1 bubble wall and its longer CD than a warriors shield wall. Druids, warriors and DK's have shield CD's, anti-magic shield etc and paladins were struggling with things like iron-council hard mode.

    The interesting thing is non paladins perceptions that AD somehow makes paladins gods. TBH its more powerful in heroics and low end raids where you can use the zone than things like ulduar 25, if you get belted into the AD zone in Ulduar 25 your chances of survival are about the same as punching last stand very minimal and thats before nerf in the last patch.

    I will say I think AD allows paladins to get away with more in heroics for example and the ease of play is why I think you see rise in numbers of mid level tanks. I seriously doubt however that actual end raid tank composition has become paladin heavy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    Situations where you really need that high amounts of EH are situations when you, the tank, can die to boss damage. So stuns, silence and reflecting won't help you in any way - those abilities work on trash and in heroics, and tanks do not maximize EH for trash and heroics.
    Okay the EH of all the tanks is not this dissimilar Cinder has a work in progress on in it and as I said not seen any massive differences myself but then I am not doing hardmodes or cutting edge raids so I leave that for others to comment.

    As for bosses and what you can and cant do you would have to get down to which we are talking about. Generally on big single bosses not much works but on most multi boss fights warriors can do interesting things you will be surprised what can be disarmed and sometimes interrupted.

    The grass is always greener on the other side ... if you feel you are getting hit harder than an equivalent paladin gives us some WWS captures and armory to compare.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    You have multiple CD's a paladin has 1 bubble wall and its longer CD than a warriors shield wall. Druids, warriors and DK's have shield CD's, anti-magic shield etc and paladins were struggling with things like iron-council hard mode.
    Divine Protection talented is 2 min cd and 50% damage reduction
    Shield Wall talented and glyphed is 2 min cd and 40% damage reduction
    Paladins win here dunno why you are saying bubble wall is longer cd than SW. That is true that paladins were behind in the number of cds, but what they got can't really be called a cd. Divine Spirit is a cd, but permanent 8.75% EH increase is not. One problem was fixed, another one was created.
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    The interesting thing is non paladins perceptions that AD somehow makes paladins gods. TBH its more powerful in heroics and low end raids where you can use the zone than things like ulduar 25, if you get belted into the AD zone in Ulduar 25 your chances of survival are about the same as punching last stand very minimal and thats before nerf in the last patch.
    You are completely wrong here. AD is more useful in those circumstances where your health pool is really used, just like most of the stamina gems. In easy content it doesn't matter if you tank is 40k health or 30k health, since nothing brings him low, and damage on tank is instanly healed. On the other hand in hard content all those stamina gems and AD start to show their worth, simply because you can take more damage and still live. Before the nerf AD was exactly the same as 15% more EH, now it is 8.75%.
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Okay the EH of all the tanks is not this dissimilar Cinder has a work in progress on in it and as I said not seen any massive differences myself but then I am not doing hardmodes or cutting edge raids so I leave that for others to comment.
    Well, yeah, OP mentioning 3k health difference probably exaggerated (can't say I am sure of it, but it feels a bit too high number), but I think 1k difference is easily achievable, add to that AD and block on every melee hit and the difference easily grows to bigger numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    As for bosses and what you can and cant do you would have to get down to which we are talking about. Generally on big single bosses not much works but on most multi boss fights warriors can do interesting things you will be surprised what can be disarmed and sometimes interrupted.
    Not really. Disarm works on Baron Rivendare (not needed really) and on Gormok non heroic (not needed either). Interrupts are much more useful, but interrupts are not something you need a tank for - everyone can do that. It is nice to have, to have your protection warrior completely lock down Brundir, but does you raid needs it in the same way as it needs your tank to survive?
    The grass is always greener on the other side ... if you feel you are getting hit harder than an equivalent paladin gives us some WWS captures and armory to compare.
    I do not feel I am hit harder, I do know that paladins are hit for less, but can survive more damage, thats a fact, proven both by theory and practice, its not something you can argue about. The only thing to judge is, does that make the things unbalanced between the tanks. Popular opinion is that warriors make up for a significant EH difference with their superior toolbox. I disagree with that opinion, we could talk about superior toolbox when warriors were one of the few classes with ap debuff and only class with attack speed debuff. Now our famous toolbox is mostly built of two pvp abilities (disarm and spell reflect), fear breaker (useful indeed, but how often?), offensive dispel, superior mobility and array of interrupts, stuns and silence. All of those are very handy, but how often any of those, or even all together make a difference between wipe and kill? I would say, never. While EH is something you always want when your tank can possibly die. Of course you dont need it for many fights, but those are the fights where you could as well gem pure strength instead stamina and noone would care. Surviving incoming damage is something you need a tank for in the first place, while interrupting/dispelling/disarming everyone can do.

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    Two quick things don't want to sidetrack this there a couple of other things but will ignore for now not important

    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    Well, yeah, OP mentioning 3k health difference probably exaggerated (can't say I am sure of it, but it feels a bit too high number), but I think 1k difference is easily achievable, add to that AD and block on every melee hit and the difference easily grows to bigger numbers.
    .
    Everyone keeps saying this but my warrior and pally wear almost identical gear pally runs around town with higher HP because it can self buff but in raid warrior has higher HP because of gun slot on warrior or have I missed something is the base stats different? Its hard for me because warrior is JC/miner so is exageratedly higher than pally who is chanter/BS.

    I will ignore stuff on where we can use what its a side issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    I do not feel I am hit harder, I do know that paladins are hit for less, but can survive more damage, thats a fact, proven both by theory and practice, its not something you can argue about. The only thing to judge is, does that make the things unbalanced between the tanks.
    Interestingly the only thing paladins really wanted when they ran into problems was another CD and it was suggested even just a shield against magic. Remember paladins always had AD it isnt new the problem with it was it could be leapfrogged and the hit taking you into the zone didnt have AD applied. I can see that this application of it taking you into AD makes a big difference especially if the hit is large but like alot of the stuff with AD it's so situational I think people overvalue it. My personal view is why the heck didnt they remove AD give us last stand and be done with it.

    At the end of the day I prefer to play my warrior, my pally is just so god dam boring. Warriors need some love but as per Cinders work you need figures to argue how much and if we want a buff we need to get good qual numbers on the differences rather than some of the QQ'ing about another class in some of the thread replies above.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
    One would think that tank not having AD would need more stamina to compensate Oo
    Or perhaps a reasonable duration heavy EH extending cooldown, such as last stand. The AD guardian-spirit proc on its own is arguably inferior to 20 seconds of last stand for all reasonable normal and hardmode applications, and as such paladins have the AD damage reduction.

    The main problem really is that last stand needs a 2 minute cooldown as baseline, along with shield wall dropped to 3 minutes baseline, 2 talented. When blizzard fixes that (I say when, as it's probably coming, Blizzard aren't retarded), I'd say Warriors will be fine.

    Plus, after all, Ghostcrawler said they don't want all the tanks with all the same numbers and abilities, as that would be mind-numbingly boring (We are playing a game after all, not a simulator). This is also why Warriors have their vaunted toolbox, which includes huge amounts of mobility, interrupting, stunning and silencing abilities. If you had a tank that had all of those plus equal or better EH, why on earth would you take anything else? This is the problem Blizzard is trying to stop from occurring.

    Plus if you want an EH tank you get a bear, not a paladin.

    I would say there are more paladin tanks now thanks to Blizzard making them hard mode viable with the new AD, before then it felt kind of pointless even trying, especially as it was at the same time as DK cooldown spam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Everyone keeps saying this but my warrior and pally wear almost identical gear pally runs around town with higher HP because it can self buff but in raid warrior has higher HP because of gun slot on warrior or have I missed something is the base stats different? Its hard for me because warrior is JC/miner so is exageratedly higher than pally who is chanter/BS.
    Then its not identical, or maybe you are at early gear levels. In gear like mine (few ilvl 245, most ilvl 226, JC/BS, gemmed mostly for socket bonuses, stamina trinkets) paladin would have only 213 more unbuffed health, and 553 more buffed health. Hardly a tragedy. But the problem is scaling, and numbers of stamina on gear are increasing rapidly between tiers, so does the difference. Maybe I'll try to calculate the difference between paladin's and warrior's health in gear closer to BiS.

    The difference is:

    8121 base health for lvl 80 warrior
    159 base stamina
    64 stamina for BiS ranged weapon
    6% more stamina from Vitality

    6934 base health for paladin
    145 base stamina
    8% more stamina from Sacred Duty
    6% more stamina from Combat Expertise
    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    I can see that this application of it taking you into AD makes a big difference especially if the hit is large but like alot of the stuff with AD it's so situational I think people overvalue it.
    Its exactly as situational as adding stamina through gems, not more, not less. That means it is not useful when you get funny damage, and very useful, when you get major damage. Granted you can use it in some really innovative way, like purposedly keeping yourself in AD range for better synergy with blocking, but its hard to evaluate and probably hard to use in raiding situation, you would need very precise healer for that :P But in its basic application, AD is just 8,75% more health. Is having 8,75% more health situational? Yeah, not always youre going to need it, with things going more or less as they should be. Is it situational like various warrior's gimmicks? Not in my opinion, no. Not all encounters are made to cause a wipe through tank's death, but hard hiting bosses are quite common compared to reflectable/disarmable/fearing bosses, even if you add them all together, especially if your guild is less hadcore, and more casual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    Or perhaps a reasonable duration heavy EH extending cooldown, such as last stand. The AD guardian-spirit proc on its own is arguably inferior to 20 seconds of last stand for all reasonable normal and hardmode applications, and as such paladins have the AD damage reduction.
    I agree that GS proc alone would be somewhat weak, something like Vezax' surge or Mimiron's Plasma Blast and it may turn out to not be enough, problem is that AD damage reduction can't be called a cooldown, because it works all the time. In my personal opinion, they should just make it 15-20 second duration, 2 min cd with both AD 30% reduction and one time GS effect for the duration. That way it would be both strong enough and interactive enough to not add to the afk tank image of the protection paladin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    The main problem really is that last stand needs a 2 minute cooldown as baseline, along with shield wall dropped to 3 minutes baseline, 2 talented. When blizzard fixes that (I say when, as it's probably coming, Blizzard aren't retarded), I'd say Warriors will be fine.
    I don't really think that would be enough. It sucks to have 3 talent point and 2 major glyph slots used to make my cooldowns good enough for those "predictable burst" fight, but it does work. I cannot skill myself or glyph myself more EH, that is why I would like to see that problem adressed more than anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom View Post
    Plus, after all, Ghostcrawler said they don't want all the tanks with all the same numbers and abilities, as that would be mind-numbingly boring (We are playing a game after all, not a simulator). This is also why Warriors have their vaunted toolbox, which includes huge amounts of mobility, interrupting, stunning and silencing abilities. If you had a tank that had all of those plus equal or better EH, why on earth would you take anything else? This is the problem Blizzard is trying to stop from occurring.
    I have to say, I absolutely agree with Ciderhelm's opinion about homogenization being necessary evil when it comes to such absolute basic stuff like EH. Its easy to say it would be boring when you are the one better, but from the point of view of the weaker tank "equal, but boring" is better solution than "different but frustrating".

    Toolbox should be balanced against toolbox, especially that EH is something you need a tank for, while all those little gimmicks you just want to have in raid. Also, paladin's toolbox is by no means small or weak - cleansing, 15% faster movement, bubble, stun/interrupt, HoP, attack speed slow, maxed out ap debuff without major sacrifices, HoS. Some of those are really major things and we share them, some of those are marginally useful, just like my fear breaker, spell reflect or disarm.

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    I am trying to get my head around why you think EH is the thing that is driving paladin popularity. Even if you are correct all on all counts it's marginal and as already said by another poster do the maths druids are miles in front on EH, if EH was the driving force we would have a avalanche of druids.

    The popularity is simply because if you are starting out tanking the retarded mindless key sequence is easy to use and gives you reliable max threat and that eliminates that problem. It is by far the easiest tank to play and as you end up with more of them at lower levels the number in upper levels will swell.

    My personal view is blizz should act and act now before it becomes a problem to put procs into play for pally's. I give you a guarantee that if blizz doesn't act pally tank numbers will continue to grow and it has nothing to do with EH.

    In the same way there needs to be homogenization of EH you need somewhat similar difficulty of play and at the moment warriors are by far the hardest tank to play and paladins the easiest.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    I am trying to get my head around why you think EH is the thing that is driving paladin popularity. Even if you are correct all on all counts it's marginal and as already said by another poster do the maths druids are miles in front on EH, if EH was the driving force we would have a avalanche of druids.
    Druids and paladins are VERY close in EH, leaving other two tanks behind, definitely druids are not miles ahead of paladins in EH department. Also, I do not know what is the driving factor behind rising population of paladin tanks, and it is not a concern of mine really. OP is asking about paladin's health outscaling warriors' health and I am saying he is right, especially if we look at EH and not only at health number. I find it to be somewhat of a problem. Populations, I do not care about, and I am pretty sad and disappointed that Blizzard takes populations into account when it comes to balance. trying to fix one wrong with another was never a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    The popularity is simply because if you are starting out tanking the retarded mindless key sequence is easy to use and gives you reliable max threat and that eliminates that problem. It is by far the easiest tank to play and as you end up with more of them at lower levels the number in upper levels will swell.

    My personal view is blizz should act and act now before it becomes a problem to put procs into play for pally's. I give you a guarantee that if blizz doesn't act pally tank numbers will continue to grow and it has nothing to do with EH.

    In the same way there needs to be homogenization of EH you need somewhat similar difficulty of play and at the moment warriors are by far the hardest tank to play and paladins the easiest.
    I do have lvl 80 paladin tank, and while my experience on him is not even 1% of my experience on my warrior, I don't think it is so much easier to play. Let's not pretend that watching for SnB procs or checking the rage bar is so hard. Ofc the difference is bigger when it comes to tanking multiple mobs, but it still isn't a difficulty between hard and easy, and more between easy and very easy. I don't mind playinga class which is slightly more difficult, as long as my effort bring me the same effects. Now it does not.

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    Seems to be one of those "grass is always greener on the side of the fence" issues. Tanks of any class are doing their job in the top guilds without question.

    As a tankadin I enjoy my threat and the feeling of beeing "less spiky". But I long for the mobility and stuns/silences when I see warriors.

    I adore bears that seem to be able to strike behind their backs with easy while running around like beeing on catnip.

    DKs not on my list... but that may be a personal "I belong to the light" issue...

    Cheers!
    skaggi

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    Ok I wont even argue the point but will accept Hengist's statement druids are very close or equal to the EH of paladins why aren't we seeing a movement to druid tanks?

    The popularity of paladins was also in the face of prior to the patch paladins couldnt even tank alot of the end stuff and all they did was slightly rework AD and suddenly they are massively OP and thats why the numbers are increasing ?????

    I will dig up the representation numbers we had and show you the shift.
    You have a pile of the mass ret pally surge (because they were OP) playing with offspec and finding hey tanking is really easy you throw this consecrate thing on the ground toss a shield and do this rotation and hey I can tank.

    You negatation of this is hey its real easy to tank a single target as a warrior and yes it is but it is dam hard to mob tank by comparision even you conceeded that. So you want to do heroics (which is where all they all start) which tanks is easier ... paladin by a country mile.

    Thats whats driving the numbers and why druids numbers arent swelling massively because they are still a little harder in heroics because they dont have the ease of mob tanking.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

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