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Thread: Please help me help this Tank

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2009

    Please help me help this Tank

    Hello Tank Spot,
    Long time lurker here in need of some advice.
    My guild is currently keeping 4 tanks in our roster; Myself, Two other Prot pallys, and a DK. The Dk and one of the prot pallys are recent additions to the guild and we have been steadily working them into the rotation over the last month.

    Getting to the point, the other officers and I have noticed that the Deathknight is going down very quickly. He has died on nearly every pull of Anub in 25 man, and will occasionally die tanking the adds, and even went down on Kologarn in an off night Ulduar 25. From his armory, his gear looks fine, his enchants are in order but, I am unsure about his spec and gem choices. I've been asked by the other officers to have a word with him before Tuesday's raid and see what his opinions are about his frequent deaths during raid.

    So what I'm asking from you all is some advice I could give him. What Gems should he be using? What spec or specs should he be using? Is there some advice i could give him about rotations and such? Or when to sue his cooldowns?

    Him: Armory Lite - The WoW Armory Alternative: Smugjaw of The Forgotten Coast
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    thank you all in advance for any help.
    Last edited by Aestor; 09-21-2009 at 11:17 PM. Reason: grammer

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Hey there!

    I can't help you with the DK stuff since I'm from the light side as pally but maybe have a different idea for you.

    Try talking to the healers. Happened to another tank at my side recently that he was dropping like a rock but doing fine. After chatting a little with the healers on ts after the raid it came out that this guy was really (and I mean REALLY) unpopular with the healing staff. They were kind of unmotivated to elongate his lifespan.

    Maybe it's not even that but a kind of tactic thing. If the heals are familiar with the regular tanks and they always use cds at certain points and the new tanks don't... well.

    That's propable not true in your case but as it happened to me lately I just had to remember and write...


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Tell him not to gem avoidance and not to just match sockets, the only non meta gem/straight stam is one purple one to activate meta. Other then that I don't know.

    edit: can't believe I missed this, tell him 540 and stop, he should have def gems in there and he's doing his glyphs wrong. IBF glyph does nothing for us since we are above 30% passive IBF anyways and it doesn't add on, dark command is worthless, and rune tap is kinda meh. My suggestions are Vamperic blood, Disease for easy disease spreading and better threat rotation, and death strike for threat.

    Now as far as talents go, Vendetta, Butchery, Blood Worms, and Dancing rune wep are all worthless for him, the first two due to the fact that they only proc on a killing blow which as a tank is few and far between. Dancing Rune Wep is not added towards his threat so again not worth it for a tank, and Blood worms heals so little it is not worth it. My suggestions on where the points go: Will of the Necropolis, Death Rune Mastery for threat, and either Sudden Death or Bloody Vengence both are great talents. Judging by how his talents are tell him that if he's using his taunts that much he's doing it wrong. Swap points from imp dg to epidemic.

    Now Imp blood presence, rune tap, and mark of blood are all debatable dk topics I personally don't use them but some people will swear by them so it's up to him.
    Last edited by Oroborous; 09-22-2009 at 02:01 AM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    There are 2 problems I see:

    He, the other tank, is socketing and enchanting purley for avoidance (def on cloak / chest, pure def-gems, pur dodge-gems, ...) eventhough he is tanking encounters where he can easily drop from 100% to 0% in under 2 seconds.

    The 2nd problem is that he is a dk and is already taking spikeyish damage, gearing for pure avoidance over EH is increasing this. Lets face it: Your tank even with his suboptimal enchanting/socketing choices is geared well enough to tank all bosses without him being in a position where he should die (on normal). Its definatly a healer problem too, wich often happens with DK-Tanks anyway.

    Warriors and tankadins and druids to some extent all take damage more often but in smaller incriments. Thus they are constantly being spammed with heals even by bad healers. A DK sometimes takes no damage for quite a while, even more so with pure avoidance socketing/enchants and bad healers then stop healing him and heal someone else. If that happens, even with proper enchants/gems, he would drop dead if 2 hits in a row would hit him shortly after before any healer could react.

    Look at the SCT on how a tank should be healed:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA_sfHABAtw"]YouTube - TankSpot's Guide to Coliseum: Lord Jaraxxus[/ame]

    I am dead serious.

  5. #5
    Isn't that a fairly bad example? The HoTs make it appear smooth, but if you just count the direct heals that was reactive healing, not pre-spamming.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    East Coast, USA
    To answer your question, I think it might be a healer issue or an crutch where he needs to pop his cooldowns. but read below.

    Your DK has lot of chances of improvement, there are many sub-optimal choices he has made, I am sure if he changes all those you will definitely see an improvement

    1. Spec:-

    Not to be rude about it but his spec raises a lot of questions, to me it looks more like a DPS spec than tanking spec. He does not have will of the necropolis why?

    This is not end all be all spec but here is what I recommend Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    ** He has one major glyph slot and 5 points to play with. For threat use Glyph of Rune Strike, For CD use Vampiric Touch, for Healing use Rune Tap and so on (so many choices for DK's ahh us poor warriors :P )

    (As a full spec this is my recommendation: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft )

    2. Gemming/Enchanting:-

    He is sitting at 557 defense, and he is still gemming for defense, also he is gemming too much for avoidance which is good for physical bosses but can hurt on magical ones, a good balance should be attained, or if its progression raiding most of the tanks just stack stam (just saying), but he should really reconsider his gemming choices.

    Again, hand enchant can be changed to stamina etc etc.

    3. Cooldown usage: Dk tanks have been known to be cool down tanks, thats why its essential for DK's to fully understand and optimize their cool-down usage, he needs to practice it learn it live with it.

    4. Some general advice,

    -> tell him to macro rune- strike to every ability he uses, as blood tank you wont have RP issues.
    -> Knowing fights will help, he can expect burst coming and pop a cd to mitigate.
    -> Single target rotation goes like this,

    IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-(DC only if he wont need the RP for any CD soon)- HS spam.

    **only exception to this would be use of DS or Rune tap for healing in case needed.

    -> Glyph of diseases let you reset your diseases with 1 blood rune istead of F-U combo, learn to use it well and he will be happy man.

    Hope this Wall-o-Text helps

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    This is what I would change:

    a) tell him to get rid of every dodge gem he has. I never, ever gem for avoidance because the Diminishing Returns on avoidance are too harsh once you get past a certain Ilevel. He also needs to get rid of his +defense gems once he's past 540 defense. he's missing out on *alot* of stamina, which is important for dks' and even more important for blood tanks for the following reason: the health returns from Deathstrike are based off a percentage of your maximum health. the higher your hp total is, the more you get back per deathstrike. each point of avoidance he gems for gives him a smaller and smaller benefit per point. stamina, on the other hand, always grants the same amount of hitpoints. he's blood spec with much better gear than me and He only has about 1k more hp unbuffed than I do as a frost tank. that should be closer to 2-3k, if not more. don't worry about socket bonuses either. they're a faux ami.

    b) I'm told by some blood tanks that blood worms is a bad talent because they can cause screwy aggro accidents and have a negligible effect on survivability. tell him to trade it in for Will of the Necropolis. WotN is not mandatory for tanking, but is definitely preferrable to blood worms, especially if he's having problems with dying alot. it may not save him all the time, but it may save him some of the time.

    c) tell him to take a point out of Dancing Rune Weapon (how does this help him tank?) and 2 points out of unholy command (completely unnecessary in end-game raiding) and fill out spell deflection instead. he's losing alot of potential spell damage mitigation by not having that talent.

    d) tell him to drop vendetta (pvp talent?) and pick up Death Rune Mastery. he's losing a ton of utility by not having Death runes available in his rotation. i would also suggest losing abom's might and hysteria and picking up sudden doom, although those have nothing to do with his survivability, which seems to be your main concern.

    e) glyph of dark command and glyph of IBF are also completely unnecessary. I cannot remember the last time my taunt was resisted, and most raid leaders understand this as a fluke on the extremely rare occasions that it does happen; not to mention the fact that other classes have aggro-wipes and transfers, and you can get a mob's attention with a ranged attack as well if your taunt actually flubs. IBF is literally giving him zero benefit because he gets well above 30% DR by virtue of his defense alone. He should be glyphing Vampiric Embrace, and i would say pair it with glyph'd deathstrike, although im' not a blood tank so i can't speak to that with authority.

    that's everything I would change. good luck.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by lyd View Post
    e) glyph of dark command and glyph of IBF are also completely unnecessary. I cannot remember the last time my taunt was resisted, and most raid leaders understand this as a fluke on the extremely rare occasions that it does happen; not to mention the fact that other classes have aggro-wipes and transfers, and you can get a mob's attention with a ranged attack as well if your taunt actually flubs.
    You can also death-grip, and even if the mob is immune to the pull effect, they sometimes aren't immune to being forced to attack you for 3s, which is enough to catch up and melee nuke it a few times to get back threat.

  9. #9
    I currently use this Blood spec for MT'ing. It completely sacrifices AoE talents to min/max single-target threat and boss survivability. Every talent that buffs healing, self-healing, stamina, avoidance, mitigation, and single-target threat are taken, anything else left out (I have a Frost aoe ot spec for when I'm on ot/add duty). Gem for stamina and expertise (if i were exp capped via gear, would gem for stamina only). You're more progressed than I am, so ymmv. Just wanted to put it out there.

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