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Thread: Was it me or the Healer?

  1. #21
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    1. your gear does need improvement as was stated before. I will not insult you by telling you what needs to be improved now.
    I wouldn't get offended. For me to ask for help, then get offended because of an answer would be ridiculous.

    As for the gear, I am aware. I'm lvling my BS to craft better equipment and be able to socket my glove and bracers.

    A great tank learns how to keep others from failing by using the fight mechanics to make the fight easier for everyone else. ie keeping the boss from the bodies reduces the healing the pally has to do on you and the dps, thus increasing the chance for success.
    I am learning the fights. Some before hand, others as I go. (I'm a "hands-on-learner). I think where I've hindered myself is "quest leveling" and not mixing in many instance runs.

    I am getting better though.

    It is too low to run heroics by brute-forcing them an ignoring tactics.
    I've taken my failed H DTK run as an eyeopener and have begun to read more about additional instances, bosses, encounters and tactics. I think my "lazy, brute-force" tactics is what hurt me the most and I'm set on not doing that again.


    I am open to any suggestions. Like add-ons, guides, and wheter or not my build could be better. (I might as well ask while I can)


    Thanks again for the help.

  2. #22
    practice makes perfect man. Every time I dps with a new tank in a pug I learn new things so if that is an option try that as well.

  3. #23
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    Your gear was/is fine for H DTK (King Dred might be a little tough), but you're running into the problem of players getting used to running dungeons with over geared toons. Players forget that there are still new people out there who want to learn and the only way to learn is to do.

    Also, the fact that the group moaned about a DK tank, leads me to believe that they were newbies themselves and pretty clueless about tanking. They probably read some post somewhere and are now experts.

    Keep at it. When you fall off a horse then best thing you can do is get right back on.

  4. #24
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    Yeah, I don't know why they'd bemoan a DK tank...my GL just got his alt DK to 80, and his threat and DPS is already darn good, as tank! He keeps asking me how he's doing, and I'm trying to help, although it's very amusing, for me, to hear him talk about the difference in perspective (he's usually a druid healer). Point is, although it may be true, to some extent, that the profusion of DKs in the game means lots of players who don't know the class, it's stupid to assume that a good player won't learn, and bring skills to any class they choose to play.

    As far as pugs, keep an open mind, but don't take any of the comments to heart. I made that mistake a couple of times, and it seriously messed up my confidence. Now, I just shrug and move on...

    And, as for worrying about wipes, and being responsible for everyone's repairs...yes, it's good to keep that in mind, but, really, 10, 20, or even 50 gold is not really much, for anyone who'd rolling a level 80...that's like ten or fifteen minutes of dailies!

    I hate that hurry, hurry, let's get through this instance for badges crap...even though I can do that, at least in several of the dungeons, now, I much prefer just getting the job done, and having fun...and, I never give up trying to learn something from each encounter, or trying a new strategy.

    One last thing, to keep in mind...every time one runs an instance, something can go wrong...the server bugs, someone gets d/e...it's just enough different, to make it interesting...that's where a tank can really shine...adaptation to the real time event!
    Last night, my healer got snake-wrapped, in Gundrak...everyone was dying, the boss was chewing into me--even though I thought it was a wipe, I popped my trinks, pots, last stand, etc., and I outlasted him! Moments like that make it all worthwhile! I even sliced the snakes off, and used my "goblin jumper cables" on my healer, to rez him!

    ...and, they worked!! (hee, hee...one out of every 10 times, or so...)
    -"Just like a buzzin' fly, I come into your life, I'll float away, like honey in the sun..."--Tim Buckley

  5. #25
    Something an old "vanilla tank turned healer" told me a while back and I've used the logic ever since....

    If you did not drink a potion, smack a lock rock and pop every life sustaining CD before you died, it is your fault.

    I would die sometimes with last stand or shield wall still available...i'd be a little pissed...want to tell the healers they sucked...but the bottom line....I am watching my incoming dmg, the healers are obviously behind...so pop a cd so they can catch up....
    and I let them know so there is no question...."last stand burned" "Shield wall gone"...."popped my potion"..."no more lock rock"...."enraged regen gone"...Now I've done everything I can to stay alive...
    NOW I can tell the healers they suck!

    There is nothing wrong with your gear starting heroics....I was there last year.
    The problem:
    You just could not carry the suck-tards that you grouped with. You out dps'ed the thunderturkey and the SP....your group sucked....they were not adult enough to know they sucked...so they blamed you. The pally was probably a FoL one button healing jackleg who could not switch gears when damage started to overwhelm his meager abilities.

    As you can see, stuff like this kinda pisses me off. My advice, get a guild and stop PUGGING!

  6. #26
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    It's not just DK's suffering this problem it's new tanks in general I have a friend gearing a warrior tank he is at 25K HP he knows his stuff and he gets whines about his HP.

    The mentality of pugs they are used to seeing x HP on a tank if they dont see it they assume the tank is no good. X atm is around 34K because if you put all the conq badge gear on thats what you end up at.

    As people said however at these HP's you cant brute force stuff you have to know the instances and bosses just like we all did when starting out.

    The other choice unfortunately is run as a DPS and pick up the gear offspec with all the 34K tanks out there they usually want nothing from a heroic. Initially go for the easy heroics where dps isnt an issue like h-nexx, h-uk, h-vh or ones that your aoe works well in h-cos etc so even if your dps is low it wont matter. Grab the 19 badge gear first and hopefully get a few drops and it should boost your HP up enuf to not get comment.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  7. #27
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    If you did not drink a potion, smack a lock rock and pop every life sustaining CD before you died, it is your fault.


    I have a panic button that I macroed to pop Icebound Fortitude, Unbreakable Armor and A Pot. When my health hits 25% and there seems to be no help in sight, I tap my panic button and keep plowing away.


    The mentality of pugs they are used to seeing x HP on a tank if they dont see it they assume the tank is no good. X atm is around 34K because if you put all the conq badge gear on thats what you end up at.
    34K on the lower heroics is like taking a gun to a knife fight.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by !3M View Post
    erm... not to be sarcastic but are you serious???
    I am serious. I never said it was too low to be successful, but you will definitely be putting pressure on your healers unless you know how to use your cooldowns correctly. I think I started tanking heroics at about 23k. It's very possible to win, but you can get better HP than that from titansteel and enchants.

    I've been tanking for several years now, and I just started healing recently. I've found that when a tank has 23k hp, I can heal them and be successful, but there is a lot more pressure on the whole group. As someone said earlier, 23k isn't too low to tank heroics, but it is too low to brute force your way through, which is the common method for running heroics anymore. I can't remember the last time I saw any tank, myself included, wait for the lightning debuff to fall off the first boss in H HoL, for example. I also rarely see tanks run out of the Lightning Ring on the last boss in H HoS. I'm not saying you can't tank those with 23k HP, but you need to be much smarter about how to do it.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by killbilly View Post
    ...
    "If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault. If the tank dies, it's the healers fault and if the DPS dies, it's their own damn fault"
    ...
    Yes and no..
    If the healer dies, in most cases, yes its the tanks fault. HOWEVER there is also lots of things healers can do to get themselves killed. DoTs, AOE and stupid bodypulls to mention some.
    If the tank dies, its the healers fault unless the tank puts himself/herself in stupid places, overpulls or find other ways to get owned.
    If the DPS dies theres actually 4 options; The DPS is being stupid, the tank is not doing his job, the healer is not doing his job or a combination of the previous two.

    Thats why I let stupid DPS know that if they aggro something I havent already or dont let me get in some threat before they start nuking Im not running all over the instance to save their asses - which of course are running AWAY from the tank - and their on their own..

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mačl View Post
    ..
    Buckle up. You are going thru a school of hard knocks and setbacks every tank has to survive. give it two weeks and you will have enough experience to survive this.
    Hard knocks, setbacks and not to mention FLAMES...
    Early in wotlk I was told I wasnt geared to tank heroics while I was already clearing naxx on a regular basis.

    The fun parts is still the days where you do pug heroics and get flamed from stormwind to orgimmar in one group and get told in the next that youre doing great - by some of the "best" raiders on the server..

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mctankor View Post
    The fun parts is still the days where you do pug heroics and get flamed from stormwind to orgimmar in one group and get told in the next that youre doing great - by some of the "best" raiders on the server..

    Shortly after my (failed) DTK run, I did H VH and HGun and was told I did a f**kin awesome job. We didn't wipe at all. The only bit of advice I got was "Get to the portals quicker" in H VH. which is much better than "OMGWTF!!!1! Lame. Newb Tank".

    I am greatful for all the advice I've gotten here @ TS. Even if my gear hasn't gotten much better, my skills have.....which will save my (and my group's) ass more often than a shiny purple sword.

  12. #32
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    I was tanking H DTK with 18.5k HP, so the next person that says you can't do it might as well stay silent. Yes, I'm in nerd rage mode. Deal with it. lol

    Trollgore fight: I tank him about the middle of the stairs, and when he murks the little troll adds, I'll drag him away a bit. That 10k bashing you take from Corpse Explosion will end your day fast. Other than a little kiting, he's straight tank and spank. Use your cooldowns right, and you'll be fine.

    King Dred: Kill everything you can before you pull him, and take a PVP trinket along. He fears, mangles, shrinks you.. it's nasty but again, IF YOU USE YOUR COOLDOWNS, you'll be fine. Oh, and he has adds to boot. One of the toughest bosses in heroics in my opinion/experience.

    Thron'ja: If you die here.. lol. Seriously. If I had a weak or distracted healer, I alternate taunt, shield, and heal until I get my skin back. If my healer was on their thing, replace heal with attack.

    H DTK is, in my opinion, the easiest heroic in the game. With around 1500 DPS out of everyone, the fights will run pretty long, but providing your healer has a decent mana pool and you know your cooldowns, you'll do great. The higher the DPS, the better your chances. Also, having a healer that will let a low DPS die to keep you afloat is a major asset. As you stated in your original post: "If the DPS dies, it's their own fault." Also, if you find that the healer was off getting another soda midfight or something, Death Pact is your friend!! Bring ol' Dirt thief out to play, let him get in a few hits, and burn him for a quick lifesaver. Yeah, it's a frost strike worth of RP, but would you rather get blamed by egotistical pugs for a wipe, or live to save the day? Also, DK tanks feel really squishy when they're getting geared. It's discouraging, but it goes away. My last, and final point is this: Assume that pugs will ALWAYS make things 300% harder than they should be. If you can prepare for that, you can prepare for bloody near anything.

    Nerd rage over.
    ...Thoughts of a philosophical Death Knight...
    If death is the inevitable end of life, is life the inevitable end of undeath?

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I've been tanking for several years now, and I just started healing recently.
    @Reev: cool, I can therefore consider you to be a veteran tank... and with the utmost respect to another experienced tank (and all the other tanks who have been tanking out there)... i request that we as tanks tone down on the inflation of HP for tanking heroics...

    like Hades said, he has tanked it with 18.5k hp... i believe i've done so too when i first hit 80... and mind you, i have always ensured that i was enchanted... although it might not always be to increase my hp pool...

    I guess what i'm rather sad (and a little disgusted) to see is that the posters here are beginning to sound very much like the pugs who don't really know better and expect to be carried... aren't we supposed to be helping tanks alike on what they can and can't do realistically?? aren't we supposed to encourage those who value progression instead of "let's just skip content and farm reg ToC so I can muscle through HC and forget what real tanking is about"??

    sorry if i sound offensive, but i seriously think that many people value the opinions provided in tankspot... and if we just keep confirming the 'easy' way out for people, then every minimum HC content will require DPS who can put out 2 to 2.5k, a tank who has atleast 25k hp... and heals who has atlest 20k mana and is capable of spamming heals... this imho is not skills (and from my previous impression of what tankspot stands for... is not what tankspot wants too)...

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by !3M View Post
    @Reev: cool, I can therefore consider you to be a veteran tank... and with the utmost respect to another experienced tank (and all the other tanks who have been tanking out there)... i request that we as tanks tone down on the inflation of HP for tanking heroics...

    like Hades said, he has tanked it with 18.5k hp... i believe i've done so too when i first hit 80... and mind you, i have always ensured that i was enchanted... although it might not always be to increase my hp pool...

    I guess what i'm rather sad (and a little disgusted) to see is that the posters here are beginning to sound very much like the pugs who don't really know better and expect to be carried... aren't we supposed to be helping tanks alike on what they can and can't do realistically?? aren't we supposed to encourage those who value progression instead of "let's just skip content and farm reg ToC so I can muscle through HC and forget what real tanking is about"??

    sorry if i sound offensive, but i seriously think that many people value the opinions provided in tankspot... and if we just keep confirming the 'easy' way out for people, then every minimum HC content will require DPS who can put out 2 to 2.5k, a tank who has atleast 25k hp... and heals who has atlest 20k mana and is capable of spamming heals... this imho is not skills (and from my previous impression of what tankspot stands for... is not what tankspot wants too)...
    Note I never said that you can't do heroics with 23k hp. You're fine to start heroics at that level. I was trying to suggest that it is in the lower end, and your healer will have to make sure he's paying more attention. For a relatively new tank with an inexperienced/slacker healer, King Dred, for example can be a real challenge.

    But yeah, if you're dying to the first boss in H DTK with 23k hp, it probably is the healer's fault.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by !3M View Post
    @Reev: cool, I can therefore consider you to be a veteran tank... and with the utmost respect to another experienced tank (and all the other tanks who have been tanking out there)... i request that we as tanks tone down on the inflation of HP for tanking heroics...

    like Hades said, he has tanked it with 18.5k hp... i believe i've done so too when i first hit 80... and mind you, i have always ensured that i was enchanted... although it might not always be to increase my hp pool...

    I guess what i'm rather sad (and a little disgusted) to see is that the posters here are beginning to sound very much like the pugs who don't really know better and expect to be carried... aren't we supposed to be helping tanks alike on what they can and can't do realistically?? aren't we supposed to encourage those who value progression instead of "let's just skip content and farm reg ToC so I can muscle through HC and forget what real tanking is about"??

    sorry if i sound offensive, but i seriously think that many people value the opinions provided in tankspot... and if we just keep confirming the 'easy' way out for people, then every minimum HC content will require DPS who can put out 2 to 2.5k, a tank who has atleast 25k hp... and heals who has atlest 20k mana and is capable of spamming heals... this imho is not skills (and from my previous impression of what tankspot stands for... is not what tankspot wants too)...

    I've thought about it a little more, and gotten past the kneejerk defensive response. I think your comment has a lot of merit, and the "HP requirement" rhetoric should be toned down. I still think that an 18k tank in a heroic is just silly, but at 23k you'll be alright if you're healer is awake and reasonable.

  16. #36
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    18-20k was where we WAS when the first tanks went into the northrend heroics and we made it through. It was how we needed to gear ourselves in the beginning of wotlk, remember?
    People are just getting lazy and want to faceroll everything because blizz is making it way to easy to do so and thats starting to become a problem for people whos just dinging 80. People expect them to have way inflated gear to even allow them into the heroics they need to improve their gear and when they cant get into the groups, they cant get the gear either. That means their guild have to carry them and puging end up not being an option..

  17. #37
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    King Dread's bleed is more of a challenge to the healer and DPS than the tank imo. Sure you can pop CD's and survive a bit better for 20s but if the healer is not capable or the DPS is too low the bleed damage becomes overwhelming. I think it would be wiser to save CD's until later in the fight when the real pressure comes into play. Mangling Slash, Grevious Bite and Peircing Slash chain together to make him a power house. Positioning is important as well, as you want to do everything you can to ensure your healer is a max range so they avoid the fear from Bellowing Roar.

    I still consider Xevozz the mage in H VH far more deadly due to the fact that if your DPS are in the wrong place at the wrong time (as they always seem to be when the fight involves moving) theres massive spike damage on everyone, a situation far more difficult to heal through than if the damage is focused on the tank alone. I wouldnt ask even a good healer to have to put up with this for longer than a few seconds before letting some DPS die to save the tank.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I've thought about it a little more, and gotten past the kneejerk defensive response. I think your comment has a lot of merit, and the "HP requirement" rhetoric should be toned down. I still think that an 18k tank in a heroic is just silly, but at 23k you'll be alright if you're healer is awake and reasonable.
    np
    it was just my personal opinion anyway... on another note, I also think that us at tankspot giving opinions about how the group should have functioned as opposed to how it functioned during the wipe to be invaluable...

    this would help new tanks who are trying to learn the ropes at getting a better feel of how group composition, coordination as well as positioning would help... that imho (again) is another trait that makes a good tank... i.e. tanking at the right spot, turning mobs who does a frontal AOE attack, or even getting out of 'Pound' from Anub'arak in AN

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jameak View Post
    King Dread's bleed is more of a challenge to the healer and DPS than the tank imo. Sure you can pop CD's and survive a bit better for 20s but if the healer is not capable or the DPS is too low the bleed damage becomes overwhelming. I think it would be wiser to save CD's until later in the fight when the real pressure comes into play. Mangling Slash, Grevious Bite and Peircing Slash chain together to make him a power house. Positioning is important as well, as you want to do everything you can to ensure your healer is a max range so they avoid the fear from Bellowing Roar.
    Keep in mind that bleed doesn't happen in a vacuum. You're still taking normal melee swings. If you as a tank can toss up shield block or some other minor cooldown, you can help reduce the normal incoming damage significantly enough to make the bleed damage much easier to heal. Also, I think sometimes newer tanks don't realize he's calling adds during the fight that need to be tanked or CC'd as well. If you don't, it can cause trouble for the healer, especially during Manglish Slash/Grievous Bite/Piercing Slash.

  20. #40
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    Your correct, but the melee swings can be mitigated through armour and avoidance, the bleed damage can not. If the DPS are under-performing, popping your shield wall when the bleed damage begins to get uncontrolable will buy you precious seconds to live. I am assuming that as a tank you are already doing what you can to minimise the damage you take, this should involve holy shield, shield block, sacred shield etc. etc.
    My position is that popping your shield wall at the start of the fight as someone previously suggested, is not the smartest thing to do, as it wont be available for when you really need it.

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