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Thread: Remove 1-Handed Tanking Weapons from WoW

  1. #1
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    Remove 1-Handed Tanking Weapons from WoW

    And rebalance protection warriors and paladins as well as content for us to use 1-hand dps weapons.

    Why? Well, there's a few reasons.

    1) It will add flavor to gearing: As an orc, I love my Last Laugh and in Burning Crusade I loved my Cleaver of the Unforgiving. But y'know what, it could be more fun knowing I'd have access to a larger base of weapons while upgrading through an expansion. Having the same tanking weapon for 6-9 months is a bit odd to me.

    1b) Orcs will further be able to take advantage of their racial, because we'll be able to tank with fists! But this change will generally help any tanking class that has a weapon based racial.

    2) Streamline loot tables: Kind of like plate with spellpower on it, but not as bad, this change would lessen the amount of 1-handed weapons (both tanking and dps) that go to waste currently and are melted.

    3) Blizz's goal to have tanks have a slice of the dps pie: Blizzard has stated that they want tanks to have somewhat of a role in terms of dpsing while tanking. They have also stated that they do not like tanks ignoring threat stats. This is a step in that direction, and it will help threat output if by default we are using dps weapons.

    4) Easy to code: Death Knights and Druids are aleady balanced around dps weapons. Why not do the same for all four tank classes.

    For those that will say that they don't want to compete with dps classes for tanking weapons, two things. First of all, I like my guildmates and the people I raid with. I would not get angry if our enhancement shaman beat me on a 1-handed dps axe. If you would get upset, maybe you should consider the company you keep and put yourself in a group where you wouldn't be angry to lose gear to those in your raid.

    Second, we'll go from having one, two, or maybe three tanking options per raid instance, to 10+ due to this change (I'm not sure how many 1-hand dps weapons are typically released per new raid, excluding daggers of course).

    I'd like to have some intelligent debate on this and whether or not a change like this is even difficult to do from a coding standpoint. Because to me it doesn't seem like it would be difficult to implement. In the long-run, this type of change would probably lessen work for Blizzard.

    (I hope this was the best section to post this in.)
    Last edited by Lenox; 08-12-2009 at 06:17 PM. Reason: Accidentally submitted before finishing. Where's the delete button on threads?

  2. #2
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    Sure, good suggestion. Also, don't forget about the ranged slot, which has a very small number of tank items available for it; this could use the same treatment.

    But I personally wouldn't stop at just revamping tank weapon itemization. There are a few other niche weapon types that could be rolled into a broader category to further streamline the loot tables. Physical-DPS staves, magic-DPS shields, healing wands, etc. are the types of items that get sharded frequently, because of their narrow focus.

    One common suggestion is to find a way to have magic-DPS characters better share itemization with healing characters (convert +hit to +mp5s, or vice-versa). That would work well for Priests, Druids, and Shamans, but Paladins might need some other approach; there isn't a supported nuke spec for them.

    The devs have already taken steps to move many of the idols out of loot tables and onto Emblem vendors, so that's a start on simplifying things a bit.



    This also ties into the calls to streamline the 11 different armor types that can drop. All 4 types of healing armor are very particular to their tailored class, as is the leather and mail magic-DPS armor.

    My rough armor chart from when this came up in a discussion elsewhere:

    Code:
    A list of gear types, and which classes want them.
    An 'x' indicates the planned classes, while a '-' indicates an
    unplanned class that might still use the item.
    
    Armor Type              Total   DK      Druid   Hunter  Mage    Pal     Priest  Rogue   Shaman  Wlock   Warr
    ====================    ======  ======  ======  ======  ======  ======  ======  ======  ======  ======  ======
    Plate Phys DPS          3       x                               x                                       x
    Plate Tank              3       x                               x                                       x
    Plate Healer            1                                       x
    Mail Phys DPS           2                       x                                       x
    Mail Magic DPS          1                                                               x
    Mail Healer             1(1)                                    -                       x
    Leather Phys DPS        2(4)    -       x                       -               x       -               -
    Leather Magic DPS       1(1)            x                                               x
    Leather Healer          1               x
    Cloth Magic DPS         3(2)            x               x               x               x       x
    Cloth Healer            1(1)            x                               x

  3. #3
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    Sorry missing something here you don't have to use a tank weapon ATM and on threat sets I do use a dps weapon?

    Tanking weapon is about min/max'ing defense stats thats all an it makes it BiS ... you went to a dps weapon there would still be a BiS weapon with the best dps stats that would be the tank must have weapon according to these forums.

    So net result the same you would be tanking with one weapon for months.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  4. #4
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    Every tanking weapon should be a dragonscale encrusted longblade.
    "We actually talked today about adding an item level 300 shirt that did absolutely nothing but mess with mods that attempt to boil down players to gear scores. " -Ghostcrawler

  5. #5
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    Not to mention that if you eliminate tanking weapons, then you have to re-balance all the other tanking gear to compensate for the loss of tank stats for one slot.

    I just don't see it as a broken mechanic, or a deficiency that needs to be addressed.
    Kazeyonoma: Giving people too much time to think makes them do stupid things too.

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    Streamlining loot tables.. Make it more boring to itemize!

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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Sorry missing something here you don't have to use a tank weapon ATM and on threat sets I do use a dps weapon?

    Tanking weapon is about min/max'ing defense stats thats all an it makes it BiS ... you went to a dps weapon there would still be a BiS weapon with the best dps stats that would be the tank must have weapon according to these forums.

    So net result the same you would be tanking with one weapon for months.
    Even if there is a BiS dps weapon for tanks, at least along the way you'd have more options to play with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankueray View Post
    Streamlining loot tables.. Make it more boring to itemize!
    Actually think about it, this would make it more interesting because instead of having the option of a couple of tank weapon upgrades, you'd have a choice between 30. It makes it more interesting to gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
    Not to mention that if you eliminate tanking weapons, then you have to re-balance all the other tanking gear to compensate for the loss of tank stats for one slot.

    I just don't see it as a broken mechanic, or a deficiency that needs to be addressed.
    You're right, it's by no means broken. But I want more tanking axes damnit!

  8. #8
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    Yeah there is a possibility that you can overdo the streamlining, but there's still an argument for it when you get down to only 1 or 2 classes that can make any use of an item at all. Things like relic slots, and spellpower plate come to mind.

    Keep in mind what makes spellpower plate particularly atrocious is a combination of factors:

    1- It is only useable by one class and spec. Only spellpower leather comes as close to useless as this, but it is still usable by 2 specs of druids. It isn't even marginally good for non Holy Paladins, and its worthless to two other classes on that armor type.

    2- It isn't confined to one slot like the relics and whatnot, it has to go in 8 slots.


    The switch between Ranged DPS gear and healing gear is not a huge gap - my holy priest for instance wears several pieces that could be construed as DPS gear. The only thing that makes me think twice about using DPS gear is if it has +hit on it, and most DPSers only look snide at mp5 on their gear. If it's a big enough upgrade, we'll wear it.

    Spellpower plate is the only real sticky spot left, in my opinion.

  9. #9
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    I think a better solution would be to streamline the loot drop mechanic so that bosses only drop gear that can be used by the raid specs used against him; Say you dow XT with only DK's tanking and no cloth DPS specs, then you'd push all cloth except healing cloth and all tanking shields off the loot off the loot table.


    and then we could all watch the price of enchanting mats sky rocket.

  10. #10
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    I'd LOVE to be able to use a DPS weapon for tanking. It'd be a good idea and easy to implement too. Just increase defense on the other items. I know that on my paladin I struggle for defense with Ulduar 25 gear due to not having a ranged weapon. This is easily fixed by increasing defense on other items and allowing us to use DPS weapons.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I think a better solution would be to streamline the loot drop mechanic so that bosses only drop gear that can be used by the raid specs used against him; Say you dow XT with only DK's tanking and no cloth DPS specs, then you'd push all cloth except healing cloth and all tanking shields off the loot off the loot table.


    and then we could all watch the price of enchanting mats sky rocket.
    I have seen Blizz specifically state they do not want to do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by phaze View Post
    Sure, good suggestion. Also, don't forget about the ranged slot, which has a very small number of tank items available for it; this could use the same treatment.
    I completely forgot about the ranged slot. Good point.

  12. #12
    I think the argument for having a 1H tanking weapon should also apply to having 2H tanking weapons.

    Blizz said they're doing this because they don't want DKs and Druids sticking to just that particular weapon. But they're already doing that to 1H/shield tanks. There's still variety though not as wide as the DPS 1H weapon sets. They can still opt to use a DPS 1H weapon, but so will 2H tanks.

  13. #13
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    And they did it for DK's and you still get this

    (List is out of date ... but you get the point)
    Blood - Top 10 Best in Slot Weapons
    1. Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion 3211.184 APE (Hard)
    2. Furious Gladiator’s Sunderer* 2844.774 APE
    3. Dark Edge of Depravity 3118.143 APE (Hard)
    4. Hammer of Crushing Whispers 3033.274 APE (Hard)
    5. Aesir’s Edge 3021.824 APE (Hard)
    6. Earthshaper 3007.764 APE
    7. Worldcarver 3015.245 APE
    8. Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned 2979.545 APE
    9. Rune Edge 2951.855 APE
    10. Betrayer of Humanity 2742.121 APE
    Want to guess what weapon that every blood DK tank wanted ... and if they could get it use??? It's an epeen issue.

    You have the option to use any DPS weapon atm to tank won't harm your threat at all if speed and dps etc match, just move the def and other stats back on your gear. So why don't you?? epeen :-) The loss in EH is not that make or break.

    Edit: The only way you would get alot of variety is if you had multiple weapons all with identical stats IMO .... but then that truely is just 1 weapon with diff models ^.^ So maybe thats a solution like we have barber etc introduced we have customizations of weapons at armorsmith.
    Last edited by uglybbtoo; 08-13-2009 at 12:17 AM.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglybbtoo View Post
    Edit: The only way you would get alot of variety is if you had multiple weapons all with identical stats IMO .... but then that truely is just 1 weapon with diff models ^.^ So maybe thats a solution like we have barber etc introduced we have customizations of weapons at armorsmith.
    This is the type of thing I want - as long as it allows me to go with a simple, realistic looking weapon as one of my options. Most of the high end weapons look simply atrocious.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
    I just don't see it as a broken mechanic, or a deficiency that needs to be addressed.
    It's slightly broken in that it leads to certain types of gear being sharded much more frequently than others. If this can be prevented with a few simple changes under the hood, then I'm for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I think a better solution would be to streamline the loot drop mechanic so that bosses only drop gear that can be used by the raid specs used against him; Say you dow XT with only DK's tanking and no cloth DPS specs, then you'd push all cloth except healing cloth and all tanking shields off the loot off the loot table.


    and then we could all watch the price of enchanting mats sky rocket.
    As Lenox points out, the devs have already commented that this is not what they want to happen at this time. They prefer the loot drops to be fully random.

    With that in mind, it makes sense to merge the least-used types of itemization, to decrease the odds of sharding half the drops.

  16. #16
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    I used a DPS weapon for tanking trash... Calamity's Grasp - Item - World of Warcraft when in naxx. Gogo Helicopter fist! Mainly for Deepwounds (slow weapon + lotsa cleave ) Hell I use alot of "DPS" items (trinkets and rings mainly) for trash tanking.

    I used the fully up'd blackmithing axe for ages in TBC.

    There's nothing stopping us from using these itemz if you can carry the required EH/Mitigation on your gear.

    It's nice to be able to use more tanking orientated weapons when the situation calls for it. I'd prefer they didn't remove the tanking 1h'ers.

    Be a Champion, not a hero.
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  17. #17
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    I don't understand at all what is holding you back. If you want to use DPS-weapons for tanking, then do :S I use broken promise for the most part, but I'd love to the get the furious MH and use that instead for instance. But removing tanking weps? Fat chance.

  18. #18
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    Why don't we just change all gear to have one stat called Awesomeness and eliminate armor class completely?

    Awesomeness can convert into stats aimed at certain classes and/or specs....

    1 Awesomeness = 2 Strength
    1 Awesomeness = 1 Attack Power
    1 Awesomeness = 1 Spell Power
    1 Awesomeness = 2 Intellect
    1 Awesomeness = .5 Hit Rating
    1 Awesomeness = .25 Expertise Rating
    1 Awesomeness = 1 Crit Rating
    1 Awesomeness = 1.5 Spirit
    1 Awesomeness = 2 Agility
    1 Awesomeness = 2 Stamina
    1 Awesomeness = 100 Armor
    1 Awesomeness = .75 Armor Penetration

    So, lets look at how an existing item would turn out:

    Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion
    Current stats:
    130 Strength
    145 Stamina
    86 Crit Rating
    69 Armor Penetration

    Just give it 65 Awesomeness! Now its stats would be:
    130 Strength
    130 Stamina
    130 Agility
    65 Crit Rating
    49 Armor Penetration

    Wow Item Creator! View and share your wow items with your friends.


    Then it would work for tanks, dps, healers, etc. Problem solved!!!

    In fact, why even make multiple pieces of gear necessary?? We should make the weapon be the only source of stats. We'd have to buff levels of Awesomeness on all weapons and make all other gear purchasable from Clothing Vendors. Other items would be purely aesthetic, of course.


    This ought to hit the PTR next week, right!?!?

  19. #19
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    How about instead we make it so that a warrior or a Death Knight spec can have a use for spell plate? That would be super.
    Stay strong. Stay smart. All heart.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mofotrey View Post
    Why don't we just change all gear to have one stat called Awesomeness and eliminate armor class completely?
    Nah, that would be silly!

    Back on topic:
    The Blizz devs have already taken streamlining steps like this in the past. Remember pre-BC, when you sharded tons of Druid and Warlock set pieces because those players already had theirs? That's why tokens were added for set pieces.

    BC also introduced badge gear, in part to help fill in slots that you've been unlucky on obtaining. Later on in BC content, we saw Sunmotes used to convert one drop into another; the devs wanted more specs to have gear drops off a limited number of Sunwell encounters.

    The merging of +healing into +spellpower was also partially done to help ease the itemization headaches (in addition to the direct benefit of increasing healer oomph for soloing).

    LK has moved a lot of the idols to Emblem vendors, since they're so narrowly focused on a single spec of a single class. Why? Because seeing a Totem, Libram, or Idol drop off half the bosses in BC raiding was a nuisance when no one needed them after the first drop.


    Itemization streamlining is an ongoing process. Case in point: allowing Rogues access to 1H Axes in 3.2. This is one of those areas that may never be done, as the game evolves.

    If we can identify those item types (both weapons and armor) that are under-utilized, we can point to changes that can help improve the experience of obtaining random loot. And that's a good thing, in my book.

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