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Thread: Mongoose over Blood Draining?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    Am I top of the food chain? Don't know.

    Most all of previous examples there are "over the course of a fight" arguments. Whether mongoose is better or blood draining or blade ward. And people looking at an entire ToC run to look how often an enchant procced.

    In my opinion that's totally wrong. For me there are 3 fights which can destroy me as tank and those are Heroic Anub 10/25, Heroic Northrend Beasts 25 and Algalon 10/25.
    I main tank them all and in each of these fights I noticed that I don't get 2 shot when I die. If I die as tank its almost always from a 10-15 k hit, I also see that I'm below 35% fairly often.

    That's why I use blooddraining. Because honestly, at my gear level, on all other fights in game I might as well use spellpower on my weapon and it wouldn't make any difference to the outcome of the fight.

    It's moments that kill you and you have to identify those moments and what would have been best on those moments.
    Parsing combatlogs of a full Ulduar run or something to prove which one is better isn't going to do you any good.
    This is probably the best phrased comment on the subject I have ever read.

    Also for those of you with comments like "guy from top 10 world guild uses this". Take into consideration that they probably do not re-enchant their weapon before they log out just so you can see what they are using. They may have had something else on tailored to the specific encounter their guild was working on that night, got done and logged out for the night. In addition they probably have mastered "x" encounter that's the latest "tough fight" and are gearing/enchanting for faster farm clears, ie: threat so their DPS can unload harder or to contribute to the DPS numbers themselves.
    Last edited by Bodasafa; 11-28-2009 at 06:51 PM.
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamburglar View Post
    One would think the impact of a 2k heal when you could possibly need it would outweigh 240 armor and 1% dodge you would get from mongoose. If you've ever found yourself barely alive and you have blood draining on your weapon there is a good chance the enchant saved your ass.

    Even if let's say blood draining only has 1-2 stacks, that is a 400-800 heal when you absolutely need it and it can crit for double healing. Does the 240 armor and slight bit of dodge outweigh even a 400hp heal when you fall below 35%?
    Lets say im running at 40k hp (which is slightly low, yes. but a nice round number)
    35% of 40k is 14k. So lets breakdown a possible screnario using numbers I observed in my last toc25 run

    I end up at 15-20k hp at any given time in the fight.
    I take a rough hit from lets say BNR, biggest one so far I've clocked (not using parses) was 24k.
    Where did blooddraing help me there?

    Now lets say, just maybe, that .42 dodge or w/e you get from mongoose was up (not an unreasonable assumption) and that was the difference between taking a hit and avoiding it Completely.

    One scenario I'm dead, the other I'm alive.

    These are not made to order scenarios, they happen frequently and are more often than not unnoticed as it can be mere milliseconds between avoiding a hit and recieving mass heals that make you think nothing just happened.

    I start to ramble, i'm not exactly sober but to me this looks if not conclusive hard evidence with numbers for all the number crunchers, at least some common sense that the argument for mongoose is very valid.

    Yes i know i currently have blood draining on my weapon, I just got back from a long break, id continue this but my drunk brother just walked in.
    point in case, im prolly switching to mongoose, do w/e you want

  3. #63
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    Can you show us on the doll where Blood Draining touched you?
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  4. #64
    Greygor, your point is valid, and I don't think that anyone with a head on their shoulders think that there is a HUGE difference between what each weapon enchant gives. The thing is, let's say you have 30% dodge up in raid, and you get your figure, 0.42 added. How much of a difference does that really make? Not really a whole lot. Not that 800 health is a whole lot, either. Just trying to point that out.

    Blood Draining lovers take the side that a little health when you can really use it, is better than a little avoidance nearly all the time. Blood Draining also helps you the same amount the better your gear gets. Mongoose is going to get nailed by diminishing returns, etc. Now, even though stamina doesn't have DR, the harder fights get the more stamina you need, and the more heals you need, the importance of 800 health back in Naxxramas, and 800 health in ToGC, for example, are much different. There is no conclusive best weapon enchant, some are good in some situations, that's why you should have more than one weapon.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Raij View Post
    Recent research on my part has uncovered that alot of tanks are now using Mongoose over Blood Draining again. Can anyone give me a concrete answer as to why? If possible some math would be nice too
    Because when it comes down to it weapon enchant is more of a personal preference than anything else.

    I can think of a couple of fights where one has a slight edge over another. I think the last time i had Blood Draining on my weapon was learning 25 Firefighter, which was this past summer? I don't remember. I guess my reasoning behind it was his melee hits weren't that huge and alot of the damage I took was magic, especially in phase 3 spell reflect tanking the head.

    I use Blade Warding now on everything except my Anubarak add tanking weapon is gemmed with defense and has mongoose on it, since I one tank the adds.

    TBH I'm about to go back to mongoose mainly because I like the glow effect better than Blade Warding...that really is how trivial the differences between the 3 are.

    Like I said there are some instances where one is slightly better than the other. I.E. fights where there was alot of magic breathes etc and melee swings were little to nothing I would probably be inclined to go with Blood Draining.

    Use whichever of the 3 enchants you like better.

  6. #66
    Yep, that is what I have more or less learned. I mean, Ulduar, Blood Draining was more or less king for a reason. Now the enchants are interchangeable. I prefer Mongoose for most situations.

  7. #67
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    why would you put mongoose on your weapon for tanking anub adds? The uptime isn't consistent or even close to high enough to be reliable to push you over the 101.6% mark. The extra crit and armor don't do a whole lot and again... uptime.

    Blood draining has very literally saved my life, including on our tribute to insanity 25 man kill, tanking anub'arak adds.


    Also to answer your question Raij, a lot of paladins are switching to mongoose because apparently with SoV it increases the uptime to something like 70%. So for them mongoose calculates out as better.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  8. #68
    For an unhittable set I would not use mongoose (anub adds). I have heard about paladins..but I am a warrior . Regardless I still use mongoose for now.

  9. #69
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    I'd just like to point out that when it comes to blade ward VS avoidance enchants, everyone says "Lawl 2k is shit"


    But when we talk about Ony trinket VS stam trinket, people say "LAWL avoidance is shit!" and go for the 2k stam trinkets.


    Seems to be a lack of consistency.



    Imo blade ward is fine, if you're getting hit for 30k every hit and not getting spam healed NO enchant is going to save you for long.

  10. #70
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    Hey! I don't say 2k is shit in either one. Max EHP gogogogogogo

    Stam Czar reporting in.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  11. #71
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    Hey, I actually agree with Aggathon on something enchant-related!

    Really, I find Blood Draining to be the most overall useful. None of the weapon enchants as they currently stand are game-changing at all, but from my perspective Blood Draining is the most likely to play a significant role in my survival due to its 'smart' nature on its triggering.

    For Anub add tanking, for instance, Mongoose may just as well be up when I have Shield Block up or some other time when I'm already taking no damage at all--yet Blood Draining can give me the buffer I need to stay alive if something goes wrong for a split second and buy that extra half second for a healer to save my life.
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  12. #72
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    Personally, I think any tank using Mongoose is kinda ... not very intelligent.

    Mongoose is a proc and as such, can not be relied on for worst case scenarios. That means you're looking at it over time. And looking over time, Blade Ward seams to beat Mongoose in pretty much any situation.

    Blood Draining on the other hand (and 25 agi if you wonna go there) is a certainty enchant. Once you have the buff you're certain to get healed by it.

    Personally, I'm thinking of switching to Blood Draining on my 25man QS just to have some sort of baseline as 'reliable' stats. But other than that I pretty much go for Blade Ward. I wouldn't even advise Mongoose for Anub adds for that reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Hey, I actually agree with Aggathon on something enchant-related!

    Really, I find Blood Draining to be the most overall useful. None of the weapon enchants as they currently stand are game-changing at all, but from my perspective Blood Draining is the most likely to play a significant role in my survival due to its 'smart' nature on its triggering.

    For Anub add tanking, for instance, Mongoose may just as well be up when I have Shield Block up or some other time when I'm already taking no damage at all--yet Blood Draining can give me the buffer I need to stay alive if something goes wrong for a split second and buy that extra half second for a healer to save my life.
    HOLY CRAP KOJIYAMA AND I AGREE ON SOMETHING!!!

    Uhh... I change my mind! Firey weapon is the best enchant... THINK ABOUT IT.

    =P
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  14. #74
    I wouldn't go with saying people who use it are un-intelligent. That is actually a pretty derogatory blanket statement. All of these enchants are better in one situation or another. It depends how often you run into said situations, and what enchant is better for the majority of content you do. The actual differences are small, and it comes down to preference. You make it sound like the differences are HUGE and that anyone is an idiot to not agree with you, something that has been dis-proven time and time again.

  15. #75
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    World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

    This is a log of a perfect ToGC10 run. No deaths.

    I used blood draining. Due to it being a perfect run, i was never in a position that blood draining needed to proc. This is the best case scenario. In this case, mongoose/bladeward would have done what? saved my healers some mana? maaaaaayybe.

    It says 48% uptime but that's with the looooong break we took before pulling Anub. I'd say the uptime is over 90% of active fighting. As you can see if you pull out the graph for it (it's the one called Blood Reserve in Buffs Gained), the stacks on it are usually at max too.

    Now think the opposite. That it wasnt a perfect run. Healer lagspiked or had one extra snobold jumping on him or whatever. 90% of the time, there was a SMART extra 2K to buy me another second of reaction time (not just the healers either, enough time for me to pop last stand or satrinas). Sure, maybe the next hit would've been big enough for that 2K to not matter. Practical application says it has mattered way too many times to ignore. Now mongoose/bladeward could maybe do something similar by altogether avoiding the next damage. But in the specific case of mongoose, i'd need the proc to be up. So basically, i dont really find mongoose a better enchant from survivability. I might prefer it for aggro but then there's accuracy for that. I dont have the math but i guess maybe blade ward could give it a fight with higher uptimes but mongoose from my perspective is definitely not there as viable.

    For those who like scenarios:
    I sit at 51K hp usually. Going with averages on that fight, he can staggering stomp + melee + impale for (15100+7700+9200) 32K. I'm at 19K hp. Healers are just casting after being stomped. I'm about to be hit by a 9K melee with a 5K impale tick coming in. 14K. I'm down to 5K. If the healers cant cast for any reason (snobolds?), i'm dead with the next impale tick. With blood draining, i'm alive.

    Scenarios can be tweaked every which way to prove one's PoV right. Enchants are personal preference. I like my smart heals more than some extra avoidance.
    Last edited by Fledern; 12-05-2009 at 04:22 PM.

  16. #76
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    As Paladin Mongoose is pure win. I suppose if I was warrior I'd stick to blood draining tho.

  17. #77
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    I'm a Blood Drainer, and pretty mch for the same reasons as orcstar said.


    I know alot of people say that the 2k heal is nothing if the boss hits for 20k, and such does nothing on the next hit. But its the time between; the boss's swing times are around 2 seconds, thats a flash of light cast, another tick of all the hots, and enough time for last stand panic keyboard smash by me and a similair manoevre with lay on hands

    or not in my case as i'm left they're tanking a recently de-enraged ice howl on blocks and avoidance at 2k health , getting no heals, and the healers shouting for someone to pick up the boss as i'm dead according to heal bot lag.

    yeah i like my undying title.

  18. #78
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    I'm not a smart man. If you're like me, you get by on looks instead. Mongoose wins. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go do beautiful things.
    Taeros | Dark Nemesis -- Bloodhoof's Premiere Alcoholic Guild

  19. #79
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    Personally I use Mongoose. This was a hard thing for me to do as I had a hard time buying into the idea that it could somehow still be the superior enchant. After dropping some gold and trying it all out for myself, I realized how much I actually love this enchant.

    While I've heard everything from 30% to 45% up time here, my personal experience is that it's much more than that. While I have no hard data to show you to back it up as I honestly don't run anything to gather it, I have watched my stats and buffs carefully and have noticed that there is very rarely an occasion when I glance up and mongoose is NOT active in a fight. I find the mongoose buff usually refreshes itself before it runs out. On long burns where I stand still, I've sat and watched it and in the 2-5 sec window it usually pops back to full duration.

    Now, I've heard great arguments for the various enchants, but I feel that mongoose is the one thing I can regularly rely on. I get a solid 1.5% dodge from it, and I've got about 27.8% unbuffed to start with.

    Granted, the 2k heal can be raid saving if you reach that point, but you can also make the argument that with an extra 1.5% dodge, you may have avoided the hit that caused the 2k heal to proc.

    My biggest problem with Blood Draining was it's totally uselessness UNLESS I reached that point.

    My biggest problem with Blade Ward is the proc being consumed on the next parry. When I gain the 1.5% dodge from mongoose, I can dodge as many times as I want in the span of that buff and it will remain up and continue to help.

    That being said, I love the fact that there isn't a crystal clear choice. it opens up these debates and makes us learn more about our class and roll as tanks

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    And looking over time, Blade Ward seams to beat Mongoose in pretty much any situation.
    I have yet to see an explanation with concrete data confirm this due to the mechanic of Blade Ward consuming the proc. It becomes a very complicated enchant and isn't as simple as some people make it out to be, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Personally, I think any tank using Mongoose is kinda ... not very intelligent.
    Saying things like this is far from constructive and does not help the debate at all.

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