Mongoose over Blood Draining?

[Bodasafa]

Answer 3 questions to yourself:

1- Do you carry health pots?
2- Do you use Health Stones?
3- Can you remember a time (or many times) when you felt that using either helped save your ass as a supplement to normal healing and CD's?

If you answered yes, then Blood Draining does the same thing. Its a small heal that is given when you need it most. Ive seen some 3k heals off mine and when your healers is out of range/stunned/goes down/is distracted with a B-rez/ect. that little bit can make a huge difference IMO.

[Zartanchi]

Answer 3 questions to yourself:

1- Do you carry health pots?
2- Do you use Health Stones?
3- Can you remember a time (or many times) when you felt that using either helped save your ass as a supplement to normal healing and CD's?

If you answered yes, then Blood Draining does the same thing. Its a small heal that is given when you need it most. Ive seen some 3k heals off mine and when your healers is out of range/stunned/goes down/is distracted with a B-rez/ect. that little bit can make a huge difference IMO.

This, you wouldn't not carry a potion or healthstone for those same reasons. Blood Draining provides a better benefit if you're MT'ing, if you're OT'ing it's kind of a waste and moongoose or accuracy (due to it's constant) may be better. I haven't tried Blade Ward yet it just hasn't gotten enough positive posts for me to waste the mats on it.

Honestly, a lot of this is what you are comfortable with.

[Aggathon]

This, you wouldn't not carry a potion or healthstone for those same reasons. Blood Draining provides a better benefit if you're MT'ing, if you're OT'ing it's kind of a waste and moongoose or accuracy (due to it's constant) may be better. I haven't tried Blade Ward yet it just hasn't gotten enough positive posts for me to waste the mats on it.

Honestly, a lot of this is what you are comfortable with.

For offtanking the adds on H-Anub, blooddraining is far superior than anything. I take a ton of damage when shield block isn't up and every last heal counts.

[Zartanchi]

For offtanking the adds on H-Anub, blooddraining is far superior than anything. I take a ton of damage when shield block isn't up and every last heal counts.

I was speaking over the course of a night, not for a specific fight but again it's what you're comfortable with.

[Superspy23]

That is the wrong way to look at it.

You could just as easily say that if you have 24% dodge, and you get 1% dodge from Mongoose (just to use some made up numbers), then if you dodge an attack, there was only a 4% chance that dodge came from Mongoose.

It doesn't matter if the Blade Ward's Parry was dispelled due to Blade Ward's bonus Parry or not. It's the same thing either way.

Both enchants are filling up the combat table. Stop overcomplicating it.

All you have to do to accurately calculate Blade Ward, is do the following things...

1. Calculate Blade Ward's average uptime based on the boss's swing timer
2. Repeat step 1 for each of the five levels that Blade Ward can stack.
3. Calculate up the frequency of the buff reaching each level of the stacking.
4. Average out the 5 stacks, relative to their average duration before dispelling and their frequency.

It's really not that hard, it only takes around 3-4 minutes of spreadsheet work to figure it out if you already know how much Parry that Blade Ward will grant you per stack level.

Here's a hint for those of you who haven't yet done the math: Blade Ward absolutely destroys Mongoose on single targets.

If you think Mongoose is better than Blade Ward, you haven't done the math, and YOU ARE WRONG.

You're definitely on the right track with the right ways to evaluate the effectiveness of this enchant but due to the complexity of the enchant it's really hard to convince people of its worth. People consistently put flawed methods of evaluation into their reasoning and it gets severely off track. This is the specific reason I went to evaluating logs.

Blade Warding's uptime is misleading, however.

Since the proc is consumed on any parry, your 'normal' parries will remove the buff--even if statistically many of those parries were not caused by the proc. Since the proc never has a chance to be 'used' in those cases (the TPS portion does, but the avoidance doesn't) it is thus 'wasted' in many cases.

I'm working with someone to properly model Blade Warding mathematically, as it is actually very complex due to its mechanics.

I, however, believe that the specifics of the complexity will only add a very little extra understanding to what we who've done the basic log analysis and related math already know. That doesn't detract my eager interest in seeing the complexities fully explored. I'm a huge proponent to the full viability of this tanking enchant and I'm constantly frustrated by those who ignorantly call it outright terrible.

[Bkl]

According to this WoL parse from premonition, Xav had 42% uptime on mongoose. According to rawr, 120 agi only adds 1.02% dodge to my character (I took off any trinkets or weapon enchants that would mess with the dodge and replaced some stam gems with agi until i got 120 additional agi). Which means mongoose is roughly equivalent to .42% dodge. I currently use Blade Ward because after 3.2 came out it was said somewhere on tankspot (cant remember the exact thread) that Blade Ward gives more avoidance than mongoose now. I checked some of my guilds WoL reports (I cant link them here unfortunately because they are not publicly viewable) and on our last heroic jaraxxus kill the parse showed 22.2% parries. I didn't pop any trinkets and the parry on my character tooltip shows 21.48% meaning Blade Ward gave me .72% avoidance for the fight. I understand that the parse wont necessarily always agree with the character window simply because of RNG, but its gotta be damn close.

Anyway, the reason I even looked into this is because I noticed xav and some other high end tanks still used mongoose. Now, unless I got crazy RNG on that fight, I dont see any reason to use mongoose over Blade Ward unless you really like that 240 armor it gives.

but did u actually parry with bladeward proc'd or not?

[Racker]

I was using blood draining, but now that i am tanking ToGc i switched to mongoose for a few reasons.

1. If you go from 40% to dead Blood draining doesn't proc, alot of the time you will die from 36% or higher to dead, if you slowly tick down get good healers.

2. More threat with the crit/faster melee speed

3. Armor and dodge

[Aggathon]

I was using blood draining, but now that i am tanking ToGc i switched to mongoose for a few reasons.

1. If you go from 40% to dead Blood draining doesn't proc, alot of the time you will die from 36% or higher to dead, if you slowly tick down get good healers.

2. More threat with the crit/faster melee speed

3. Armor and dodge

If something is gonna hit you from 40% to dead then no weapon enchant will save you. Blood draining is straight up the EHP choice. If you need threat (which I personally don't at all) then MAYBE Mongoose, but imo the uptime is just too low, at least for warriors. Bladewarding for warriors is proven more avoidance, but I guess if you want that armor for a small amount of time then go for it. I wouldn't turn my nose up at someone enchanting mongoose, but I definitely wouldn't do it myself.

Edit: I actually changed from bladewarding to blood draining for ToGC.

[Remmz]

For offtanking the adds on H-Anub, blooddraining is far superior than anything. I take a ton of damage when shield block isn't up and every last heal counts.

I use agility (Yes, plain agi) on my tanking weapon for anub adds. The main reason is the time tanks are most vulnerable are when adds are just spawning and being positioned since debuffs aren't up, we are moving, and you risk out-ranging your healer for a split second.

In that scenario, I take the straight agi enchant for the consistant avoidance, as opposed to risking not having BW or mongoose proc.


For everything else, Mongoose all the way. You all are focusing so much on the mitigation aspect of the enchant... But keep forgetting that current content is easy. Avoidance won't save you. Bosses for the most part don't hit hard consistently. They hit for a mediocre amount, then wind up and hit you super hard with something you cannot avoid. At that point, mongoose won't matter and neither will blade ward. Blood draining isn't worth it either because of how often it gets leapfrogged. Just use health pots / stones better.

Mongoose still provides a nice amount of threat. That's the real reason you're going to see a lot of top tanks using it. Gives a little bit of EH, a little avoidance, and a little threat.

[bait]

I believe your missing the main aspect here. Mongoose has a way better glow than either of the two enchants. I mean come on no brainer.


But for what it's worth i use blood draining because I can never get into raids and only run 5 man heroics so with it i can pretty much clean up any boss with ghetto heals from the last survivng ret pally or the priest in blues that went oom because the dps that is /cheer because they just broke 1k dps. gosh i need to tank real things...
But blood draining will save you from a just getting into it side of of things. Dunno if every topic is only for the top of the food chain 50k health unbuffed type.

[Darthmullet]

I would think that if you're in a situation where Blood Draining really helps, you're going to die anyway (in ToGC, or the like). I think the debate is really between Mongoose and Blade Ward, now I dunno for sure, but with a 20% dodge reduction in ICC, Blade Ward might be the better enchant after 3.3.

[krc]

. I think the debate is really between Mongoose and Blade Ward, now I dunno for sure, but with a 20% dodge reduction in ICC, Blade Ward might be the better enchant after 3.3.

Not necessarily, unless you have under 20% dodge to begin which is very unlikely assuming the tanks is tanking Icecrown just from avoidance that just comes with gear. The dodge reduction does not increase the returns you get from dodge it just reduces your overall number, 50 dodge rating will still be worth 50 dodge rating in Icecrown.

[Aggathon]

I use agility (Yes, plain agi) on my tanking weapon for anub adds. The main reason is the time tanks are most vulnerable are when adds are just spawning and being positioned since debuffs aren't up, we are moving, and you risk out-ranging your healer for a split second.

If you're over 101.6% (like I am) then agility adds zero benefit. Also... I'm referring to heroic 25 man anub, where the add tank doesn't move at all, so you don't have to worry about that last part.

I mean... imo it really comes down to personal preference and play style. Each enchant has their benefits. Mongoose = okay avoidance + armor + threat, but lower up time. Bladwarding = more avoidance for warriors mathematically, close to negligible threat increase, and no armor. Blood draining is a decent smart heal when you might need it, and each have various benefits, and imo it comes down to the situation and the playstyle of the tank and the healers.

[Bladesong]

Dunno if every topic is only for the top of the food chain 50k health unbuffed type.

Heh, it feels that way sometimes but you just have to read between the lines. When I see discussions revolving around fractions of a percentage point my take-away is "Any of these three enchants will be fine for almost everything I tank". On the other hand, having made a few attempts on Gormok in heroic 25, I understand why even a tiny boost is important in some fights. I'm currently using Blade Ward, but if I get a weapon upgrade I'm changing to Mongoose - I agree that it clearly has the best glow

Blizz said that they didn't want a "must have" weapon enchant and it looks like they succeeded.

[Aggathon]

Blizz said that they didn't want a "must have" weapon enchant and it looks like they succeeded.

I still don't understand their logic on this. Every other class does. Melee dps = berserker, spell dps = 63 sp, etc.

[Raij]

They want to give us options, yet at the same time throw abilities and boss mechanics that pigeon-hole us into one clear-cut set, (EH for ToC anyone?). Makes sense. /sarcasm

[Aggathon]

They want to give us options, yet at the same time throw abilities and boss mechanics that pigeon-hole us into one clear-cut set, (EH for ToC anyone?). Makes sense. /sarcasm

Well in their defense anub'arak does require a completely different and bassackwards set of gear that actually values less hit points and high mitigation for the add tank, less hit points, high armor, and nature resist(?!?!?!) for the MT. From I tanking/healing perspective it is a completely different dynamic.

[Fledern]

Mongoose is better. End of discussion, ......

Not really

While i respect Xav, i prefer to browse my own logs than somebody elses when making my enchanting decision.

I've used mongoose from the day it came out in TBC. I know how it feels/handles like. I can feel it when i switch between a weapon with mongoose and one with something else. And i've used it at the start till sometime into Ulduar. Sorry, but with the amount of avoidance you get on your gear, mongoose's feel just about dissapeared. And with 30K armor raidbuffed, the occasional 240 from mongoose does f***all. Mongoose for me, friends, is no longer a valid enchant.

I did two raid runs on hardmode with my old mongoose weapon and with the new blood draining i had put on. Mongoose didnt feel any different. But browsing my logs, i found 36 heal procs of blood draining. That is a lot of real world saves, i dont care what theorycraft says.

If you want to imagine how blood draining can save your ass, if you're pushing hardmodes with 2 healers instead of three, i think you can visualize the potential a bit better.

[sikxrevenge]

Kugen is clearly using mongoose for his Block set for tanking heroic anub adds. Mongoose is great for that but a fight with huge spike Blood Draning works better for me, i sit at 52k buff HP as a warrior and if i get hit below 30% say on NRB its a free potion and its going to give my healers a chance to top me off before the next swing. saying Blood Draining is useless is say health cookies and health potions are useless. it also depends on you're class, Warriors in most cases should use Blood draining and pallys should use Blade ward and druids should stick to mongoose...i dont belive there is one tanking enchant for all classes.

[orcstar]

Am I top of the food chain? Don't know.

Most all of previous examples there are "over the course of a fight" arguments. Whether mongoose is better or blood draining or blade ward. And people looking at an entire ToC run to look how often an enchant procced.

In my opinion that's totally wrong. For me there are 3 fights which can destroy me as tank and those are Heroic Anub 10/25, Heroic Northrend Beasts 25 and Algalon 10/25.
I main tank them all and in each of these fights I noticed that I don't get 2 shot when I die. If I die as tank its almost always from a 10-15 k hit, I also see that I'm below 35% fairly often.

That's why I use blooddraining. Because honestly, at my gear level, on all other fights in game I might as well use spellpower on my weapon and it wouldn't make any difference to the outcome of the fight.

It's moments that kill you and you have to identify those moments and what would have been best on those moments.
Parsing combatlogs of a full Ulduar run or something to prove which one is better isn't going to do you any good.