+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 55

Thread: Avoidance value of Expertise

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    284
    Vezax doesn't parry haste either.
    The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    242
    Quote Originally Posted by Grü View Post
    So we find ourselves in a situation where :

    - either the parry haste flag is set, and we need to stack exp along with standard EH stats to avoid spike damages
    - or it is disabled, and exp can almost be ignored as long as threat isn't an issue

    Considering the criticity of this flag, I am surprised that no one listed its value for every single boss out there... Or is it that the few encounters mentioned above really are the only ones with the flag unset ?
    This would suggest that guys like Icehowl, Valkyrs, Algalon can actually parry haste, even in heroic mode ?
    Gru, the only true way to test this outside of blizzard just telling us whether or not a boss has parry-haste turned off is to have tanks look at their combat logs after any boss fight and look for signs of appreciable parry haste. if you can't find a single instance of a boss's melee swing following another swing at ~40% faster than his average swing time (logs are never 100% accurate), then it's probably true that the boss doesn't parry-haste. Splug posted some combat logs for Vezax awhile back where none of us could find any signs of parry-haste in the log, so we were able to deduce that he doesn't parry-haste. i'm unaware if this information was officially posted anywhere, but the evidence was fairly conclusive just by looking at that log.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    4
    Yep, I see your point here. I was just trying to figure out if anyone had already gathered all the results somewhere, since it would be great input for all of us working our way through HMs.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    25
    Maintankadin • View topic - Comprehensive List of Bosses With Parry Haste Enabled

    This seems to be the best list of parry hasting bosses that I've seen. Obviously there's still a few blanks to be filled in. But I would expect the twins and anub to have parry haste enabled.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Paris
    Posts
    4
    Nice post indeed, ty. I'll try to get some interesting data on Anub & Algalon the next time I get to tank them.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    262
    Quote Originally Posted by GravityDK View Post
    Vezax doesn't parry haste either.
    When did they change this? I know he used to
    "Upon an order we plead, with the lure of a song, a sacred song, to the moon and the stars. An illusionary light is here placed."

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    284
    Not sure when Tuffmuffin, but we proved he didn't parry-haste in a thread here (it was originally about DW DK tanking but ended up showing no parry-haste on him, quite interesting).
    The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sproutster View Post
    Maintankadin • View topic - Comprehensive List of Bosses With Parry Haste Enabled

    This seems to be the best list of parry hasting bosses that I've seen. Obviously there's still a few blanks to be filled in. But I would expect the twins and anub to have parry haste enabled.
    I have checked those two and neither has the parryflag aktivated. I also build an own sim and my numbers (for my avoidancevalues and warriors) differ extremly from the ones the op has found (0.3*exp = dodge). Will have to rewrite the formulas hopefully I have some typo.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    721
    That being said - while expertise is 70%ish as effective as dodge in terms of reducing damage, it is exactly similar to dodge in that it doesn't remove worst-case scenarios and is unreliable (at least until you get a ton of it).

    That it tends to not be a factor on the fights that hit the hardest from a melee perspective also kinda sucks for it to be stacked. Thorim's especially annoying in that even if you personally stack all the expertise you can, the other tanks are still likely going to parry gib you when they're not tanking.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    7
    a solution would be to stop attacking at all if you have to stand in front of a parry-boss (unfortunatly my old ulduar logs are lost so I can't confirm that Thorim has the parry flag on, but we will visit ulduar again in the near future so a complete list will be availible soon)

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    7
    I have written a short spreadsheet where you can tweak in your stats and the weaponspeed of the boss and get out the damageavoidance from expertise vs dodge. As I thought the numbers are higher for Warriors then Paladins, for my gear Expertise is 34% more usefull than dodge. The spreadsheet may be used by any class, they only differ in the constands used for diminised avoidance and the number of parriable attacks.
    http://www.mallaun.com/parryhaste.xls
    http://www.mallaun.com/parryhaste.ods

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    70
    Plugging a warrior's attacks per second into my calculation, I actually get that it's less effective for warriors than for paladins. It's coming out to around 62% effectiveness for warriors, compared to 80-85% effectiveness for paladins.

    Just to check, I put the dodge/ parry/defense ratings and agility from my simulation into your spreadsheet, and it's giving a negative number for damage reduction per dodge gem. It looks like the agility is hardcoded on the 'numbers' page rather than referenced from the 'Front' page.

    I'm trying to track down the errors in your spreadsheet right now. One I can see right off the bat is that it won't work properly for paladins, since it's not including Holy Vengeance applications.
    "Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
    MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    7
    jep agi was hardcoded (shame on me) should be fixed now

    as for palas... I am not quite comfortable with their mechanics, but couldn't you plug in the holy vengeance into number of parriable attacks/min?

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    70
    No, because Holy Vengeance applications occur with every weapon swing and every Hammer of the Righteous (HotR). The ones from HotR can be added statically in the fashion you suggest, but the ones that proc from unavoided melee attacks will scale with parryhaste.

    In the MATLAB code that I'm using, this is how I calculate the base player attack speed for each class:
    Code:
    if class=='paladin'
        player_attack_speed=1./((2-boss_avoid./100)./player_swing_speed + (2-boss_avoid./100)./6);
    elseif class=='warrior'
        player_attack_speed=1./(1./player_swing_speed + 33/60);
    end
    based on the suggestion that a warrior makes 33 parry-able attacks per minute.

    In addition, I think I've found your error. First, here's what I get from my simulation using:
    parry rating = 251
    dodge rating = 775
    defense rating = 777
    agility from gear = 22
    player_base_swing_speed=1.2433687 (from your spreadsheet)
    class='warrior'

    Code:
    Arrays tracking values while we iterate the parry-haste coefficients:
    variable              Iteration #1          #2          #3          #4          #5
    player_swing_speed          1.2434      1.2073      1.2067      1.2068      1.2068
    player_attack_speed        0.73841     0.72555     0.72532     0.72534     0.72534
    boss_swing_speed                 2       1.907      1.9097      1.9095      1.9095
    player_parryhaste           1.0298      1.0304      1.0303      1.0303      1.0303
    boss_parryhaste             1.0488      1.0473      1.0474      1.0474      1.0474
    
    variable                  Iteration #1           #2           #3           #4           #5
    redux / exp skill           0.00162512   0.00157703   0.00157971   0.00157954   0.00157955
    redux / equiv dodge         0.00249452   0.00249452   0.00249452   0.00249452   0.00249452
    redux eff (%)                  65.1475      63.2199      63.3272      63.3202      63.3207
    # extra attacks                7.31304      7.09665       7.1087      7.10791      7.10797
    expertise to rem 1 att         4.10226      4.22735      4.22018      4.22065      4.22062
    equiv dodge rating             33.6283      34.6537      34.5949      34.5988      34.5985
    equiv dod % post-DR           0.470557     0.484804     0.483988     0.484041     0.484038
    equiv # att dodged (vs 0.4)   0.740248     0.761611     0.760387     0.760467     0.760462
    # att eff (%)                   62.442      60.6905      60.7881      60.7817      60.7822
    
    
    
    
    Final values:
    
    player_swing_speed              1.20676
    player_attack_speed             0.72534
    boss_swing_speed                1.90952
    player_parryhaste               1.03033
    boss_parryhaste                 1.04739
    redux / exp skill            0.00157955
    redux / equiv dodge          0.00249452
    redux eff (%)                   63.3207
    # extra attacks                 7.10797
    expertise to rem 1 att          4.22062
    equiv dodge rating              34.5985
    equiv dod % post-DR            0.484038
    equiv # att dodged (vs 0.4)    0.760462
    # att eff (%)                   60.7822
    I then plugged those values into your spreadsheet with A=33 to see what we get.

    You calculate "Damage Reduction per expertise gem" properly, though your diff is slightly larger than what I get (~0.0067 rather than 0.00736). However it agrees well enough with what I get if I scale my results up to 20 expertise (0.00157955*20/8.2=0.0039, or 0.39%).

    However, when you calculate "Damage reduction per dodge gem," you just calculate the difference in dodge rating, or 0.2806% dodge. That's not the same as damage reduction though.

    The damage reduction due to that much dodge is properly calculated as follows:
    Code:
    redux_per_equiv_dodge = 1-(1-player_avoid/100-(dodgedr0-dodgedr)/100)/(1-player_avoid/100);
    In other words
    1 - (1-avoid%_after)/(1-avoid%_before)
    or, since your spreadsheet has 53.77% base avoidance before the gem:
    1-(1-0.5377-0.002806)/(1-0.5377) = 0.0061

    Which agrees exactly with what I get when I scale up my value of "redux_per_equivalent_dodge" to 20 dodge rating (0.00249452*20/8.2=0.0061=0.61%)

    Thus, the ratio of these works out to around 63%, exactly like my simulation suggests.

    TLDR version: Your spreadsheet calculates damage reduction incorrectly for dodge rating, artificially decreasing its value (and thus making expertise look better than it should in comparison).
    "Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
    MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    7
    However, when you calculate "Damage reduction per dodge gem," you just calculate the difference in dodge rating, or 0.2806% dodge. That's not the same as damage reduction though.
    my bad my bad... one suggestion for your sheet:
    player_attack_speed=1./(1./player_swing_speed + 33/60); is not entirly correct, because your auto-hits scale with parry wheras the specials do not: (A2/A3 in the numberspage)

    edith sagt: ah you iterated the weaponspeed from the player. however you can solve the two equations for parried-weaponspeed
    Last edited by kahalm; 10-26-2009 at 08:21 AM.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    70
    No, my code is correct. There's an iterative algorithm in there that adjusts player_swing_speed and player_parryhaste with parry-haste.

    Code:
    %% Second (and subsequent) Iterations
    for m=2:5
        %player swing
        player_swing_speed=player_base_swing_speed./player_parryhaste;
        if class=='paladin'
            player_attack_speed=1./((2-boss_avoid./100)./player_swing_speed + (2-boss_avoid./100)./6);
        elseif class=='warrior'
            player_attack_speed=1./(1./player_swing_speed + 33/60);
        end
        %boss swing
        boss_swing_speed=boss_base_swing_speed./boss_parryhaste;
        boss_attack_speed=boss_swing_speed;
    
        %parryhaste
        player_parryhaste=1+((player_swing_speed*(player_parry./100)*0.24)./boss_attack_speed);
        boss_parryhaste=(1+((boss_swing_speed.*(boss_parry./100).*0.24)./player_attack_speed));
    That code accurately scales player_swing_speed with parry haste while keeping the static part (33/60 for a warrior, or the HotR term for a paladin) constant.

    If you look at the tables I posted, the algorithm converges for both player_swing_speed and player_attack_speed within just a few iterations. This is much better than you can do for any single formula, and since I assume that Excel is not iterating despite the way you recursively called things in column B on the 'numbers' sheet, your formulas are going to give you values that are "first approximations," equivalent to the first column of my output. That would also explain the discrepancy in the Boss Weapon Speed that I highlighted earlier.
    "Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
    MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    70
    Oh by the way, I realize this is a "warrior" thread, but if anyone has a good estimate of the number of attacks per second for a DK (both base-weapon speed and number of extra parry-able attacks per second due to specials), I'd appreciate it.

    The numbers are likely different for 2H vs dual-wield, so I may have to calculate for both.

    I think I'll finally have some time to write this up as an article this month (last month was quite busy), so if I get numbers before then, I can include DKs in the analysis.

    I think bears should be straightforward as well. They can't parry, but can be parried (I think - correct me on that if I'm wrong). So the same code will work with a slight modification to null out their parry chance.
    "Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
    MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by kahalm View Post
    edith sagt: ah you iterated the weaponspeed from the player. however you can solve the two equations for parried-weaponspeed
    I just ran through the math to solve for the parry-haste factor, and I'm getting something slightly different than what you have. I see the discrepancy though, and it's in the way we're calculating parry haste. I'm not sure which is correct yet, though; I'll have to do some digging to figure it out.

    Regardless, our results agree within 1% or so for the parry-hasted swing speeds, so it's not going to make or break the results.
    "Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
    MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by theckhd View Post
    Oh by the way, I realize this is a "warrior" thread, but if anyone has a good estimate of the number of attacks per second for a DK (both base-weapon speed and number of extra parry-able attacks per second due to specials), I'd appreciate it.

    The numbers are likely different for 2H vs dual-wield, so I may have to calculate for both.
    There are 2 relevant informations needed for DKs (our guildtank is currently at vacation so no help from this side): how much of your autohits are converted into runestrikes (and how do they work when dualwielding, does it only replace the mainhand strike or both?) and how much of your other abilities can be parried? (and if a strike uses both weapons can they both be parried?)

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Cornwall, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    875
    I'm eagerly anticipating that article Theckhd. I've got a couple of questions regarding what kind of impact different levels of ratings have on the final answer, but you'll probably answer them in your article. I'll have to hold my breath.

    Interesting reading! Keep up the good work guys.

    Be a Champion, not a hero.
    Drae

    http://www.zetbit.com/sig-1454507.jpg


+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts