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Thread: Less dodge/parry more armor?

  1. #1
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    Less dodge/parry more armor?

    Hello,

    I've been wondering for some time now if since the 3.2 armor nerf DK's should be trying to stack more armor. I haven't really found a good thread for this anywhere so I was wondering what the DK tanking community thought on this matter.

    The reason I am asking is I'm debating whether or not to itemize some armor neck pieces and rings over purely dodge/parry exp/hit.

    Looking over my gear it seems I would probably benefit some more armor over dodge, but it's still a hard choice not knowing exactly what effect the 400 or so armor would be compared 1 or 2% dodge.

    Current stats:

    554 Defense
    29.13% dodge
    19.80% parry
    25741 armor (62.82% reduced physical damage)

    Thanks

    - Xiphid
    US-Balnazzar-Horde

  2. #2
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    Well, it's rarely really a decision as you can't "stack" armor per se. That said, do not underestimate the value of those necks, rings, and cloaks (and anything else) that has extra armor. It is a very nice way to boost up your effective health.

    400 armor vs 1 or 2% avoidance isn't a good trade, but it's also not a fair trade, you'll see itemization trade it more along the lines of 400 armor vs 0.3-0.5% avoidance, which is a fair trade, but between two rather different survival tools.

    So, the short answer? You don't need to trade one for the other, take the piece that you like better overall. Piece #1 is Str/Stam/Def and Dodge+Parry, while choice number to Str/Stam/Def and Dodge+Armor, grab the one with the better total (usually the higher level piece).

    The more appropriate answer would probably be, between equivalent pieces, with Blood/Frost I'd favor Armor, and for Unholy I'd favor all the avoidance you can grab.
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  3. #3
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    I agree with Satorri. unholy favors avoidance, blood and frost tend to favor armor (or effective health). personally I've never been all that impressed with trinkets/cloaks/rings that have additional armor on them, but I think that's strictly personal preference.

    this chart might be helpful as well:

    formula for DR = armor rating / (armor rating + 15232.5)

    so that yields the following chart:

    60% = 22849
    61% = 23826
    62% = 24854
    63% = 25937
    64% = 27080
    65% = 28289
    66% = 29569
    67% = 30927
    68% = 32370
    69% = 33905
    70% = 35543

    basically once you past 61% DR, you start getting into the realm of needing over 1000 armor, ever-increasing, to get 1% additional DR. avoidance suffers from Diminishing Returns as well, so as far as which is better from a relative standpoint, instead of giving yourself headaches with the math comparing 1% damage reduction vs. 1% avoidance, I would just choose avoidance over extra armor if you're unholy, and armor over extra avoidance if you're blood/frost.

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the advice,

    I have to say, I usually prefer cloaks/rings/neck without armor. (I am frost spec) But it's becoming to the point where I see more and more of these cloaks/rings/neck pieces and wonder if my dodge is starting to hit diminishing returns too hard. Just for clarification I'm talking about same item level gear (looking at 245 to be more specific).

    For some reason I always under the impression that frost was the better spec for stacking avoidance leading me towards stacking dodge/parry. (I guess my reading is lacking on this topic).

  5. #5
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    To be clear, Lyd =P neither avoidance nor armor *suffers* diminishing returns. They're diminished so that stacking doesn't have an exponential return, it instead only has a linear return.

    Adding 200 armor is of equal value to your survival if you have 20k or 30k. Conveniently high level gear adds rather more armor. =)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #6
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    If you're referring to it in the context of a percentage of the remaining damage you are taking, then yes, I agree, the diminished rating creates a linear benefit, but it's worth noting that we're referring to two different concepts: the amount of total avoidance/mitigation you have per point versus the amount that each point gives you relative to the damage you're still taking after mitigation is factored in. the fact remains that as armor increases, you gain a regressive benefit to your mitigation per unit of armor. the same is true for dodge and parry. the regressive benefit creates a linear progression only when viewed as a function of the % of attacks still unavoided, or the % of damage still taken.

    so if you go from 50-60% mitigation, you've increased your total mitigation by 10%. however, you can also say you've decreased the amount of real damage you were taking by 20%. if a boss hits for 10k, and you mitigate 50%, you take 5k. at 60%, you would take 1k less. you increased your total mitigation by 10%, but 1k = 20% of 5k, which is your post-mitigation total. in order to make the benefit linear relative to the post-mitigation percentage, you would have to reduce the mitigation benefit per point of armor after 50% to equal 500 instead of 1k to make it 10% again. in other words, the same amount of armor that gets you to 60% before a regressive function will only get you to 55% after the regressive function is applied to armor value. that means that the amount of mitigation you get per point of armor is not linear. it is regressive. the amount of mitigation you get per point of armor relative to the damage you are still taking, however, is linear, when viewed as a percentage of the damage you're still taking.


    it's kind of like how if you start at point A, and only move half the distance to point B at a time, you will never actually reach point B. the same concept is true here. I don't disagree with what you said, we were just talking about 2 different aspects of the way armor and avoidance work. in order to achieve a linear percentage model that functions off of post-mitigation damage totals rather than pre-mitigation totals, the benefit per point of armor must necessarily be made regressive, i.e. non-linear. you were referring to the former, I was referring to the latter.

  7. #7
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    Personally, as a healer, I can tell you that regadless of effective damage reduction, whenever the numbers in both cases are close enough, go for armor. It's far easier for a healer to gauge your incoming damage when it's more stable than when it's fluctuating like hell. It also increases the chance of heals to atleast heal something, which is something that totally pisses me off personally. Perhaps it has no mathematical effect, but when I land 5 heals in a row that all totally overheal, I start to question the worth of spamming heals, which IS needed in worst case scenarios. In the end the game doesn't only have mathematical considerations, but also phsychological factors that make or break a boss fight.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Personally, as a healer, I can tell you that regadless of effective damage reduction, whenever the numbers in both cases are close enough, go for armor. It's far easier for a healer to gauge your incoming damage when it's more stable than when it's fluctuating like hell. It also increases the chance of heals to atleast heal something, which is something that totally pisses me off personally. Perhaps it has no mathematical effect, but when I land 5 heals in a row that all totally overheal, I start to question the worth of spamming heals, which IS needed in worst case scenarios. In the end the game doesn't only have mathematical considerations, but also phsychological factors that make or break a boss fight.
    I like this analyse. I always thought the same. In most situations, psychology limits more the raid than maths (unto a certain point). Healers would always prefer linear damages as long are they don't put them oom.
    Last edited by Aradril; 09-20-2009 at 03:42 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aradril View Post
    I like this analyse. I always thought the same. In most situations, psychology limits more the raid than maths (unto a certain point). Healers would always prefer linear damages as long are they don't put them oom.
    This is a classic argument in the EH vs. avoidance argument. A longer TTD also means a higher room for error for your healers.

  10. #10
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    Totally depends on the content you are tanking.
    If you are 245 gear, and you are starting into heroic ToC 25 or just farming ToC 25 regular, you are going to have much better returns with armor/stamina and completely ignoring "Stacking" avoidance for Northrend Beasts / Anub'Arak.
    For twins and jaraxxus, a balanced set is optimal, and obviously for Jaraxxus you aren't really tanking.

  11. #11
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    I have some thoughts wrt this topic that hopefully you guys can clear up.

    Straight numbers wise everything is correct indicating that 2% DR (via armor) is equivalent to 2% avoidance in damage reduction. Yes there is healing issues and spec issues here (I used to heal in BC and the beginning of Wrath), but lets just talk math. Assuming that a Tank is starting at 0% of each, these numbers hold up perfectly. Each % decreases your damage intake accordingly (although by different methods). Now what no one has refered to, or apparently included in their calculations is the fact that inorder for Armor's DR to be effective, you need to be hit.

    For instance if a mob swings for 10k every 10s.

    at 50% DR (from armor), and 50% avoidance. You on average take a 5k hit every 20s (250DPS).

    at 60% DR (from armor), and 50% avoidance. You on average take a 4k hit every 20s (200DPS)

    and at 50% DR (from armor), and 60% avoidance. You on average take a 5k hit every 25s (again 200DPS)

    Obviously these numbers are abstract for the purposes of easy comparison. Im just trying to highlight that the two mechanics are roughly equal (in a vacuum) in terms of survival. Its a mater of seeing where you are on the diminishing returns scale. For instance comparing the Eitrigg's Oath (10man ToC) to Glyph of Idominabilty (badges), at my gear levels the Oath produces almost 2% dodge, where as the Glyph would give me alittle bit less than 1.5% DR. (I know there are other considerations, but from an avoidance stance).

    So I guess the big question form me is: Is my logic off base?

  12. #12
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    The amount of dps you take does NOT MATTER.
    Ever.
    Ever.
    Spike kills tanks.

    Also avoidance is nice, but you shouldn't gear for it excessively. The largest spikes in the game now come from stuns or are unavoidable. Armor/Stamina are king.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 09-22-2009 at 10:38 AM.

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