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Thread: Critical Block buff

  1. #21
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    It's a straight buff... it's just a minimal buff. But after my warrior tank compatriot got repeatedly gibbed on the Twin Valkyrs heroic superfastattackspeedbuff they get from the shields last night, I'm not gonna sneer at block. It's the first time since they took out crushing blows that I was actually thankful I was block capped.

  2. #22
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    It's a buff but minor. It's not like argent defender. Can we get something like Inspiration type critical block buff?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crommi View Post
    It's not going to change anything, there is not a single piece of gear in ToC with block rating on it. It would be useless anyways since heroic mode bosses hit for massive amounts and it doesn't make any sense to sacrifice EH and avoidance for block.
    I think this is the driving force for it, since there isn't much SBV around in top end gear, they have to bring it up somehow. You'd have to gear down to get SBV to stupid levels, but then you are just gearing for soloing 70 or lower instances.

  4. #24
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    It's not going to change anything, there is not a single piece of gear in ToC with block rating on it.
    Take another look at the T9 4pc bonus and do not ignore the Block Value on the T9 helm and the T9 legs.

    The T9 4pc bonus is effectively a BIG increase in Block Rating and Value and has the most interesting interaction with this buff. I'm not saying its huge, and I'll leave the math to others who are better at it, but there IS an impact and I am interested to see some more numbers.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grymauch View Post
    Take another look at the T9 4pc bonus and do not ignore the Block Value on the T9 helm and the T9 legs.

    The T9 4pc bonus is effectively a BIG increase in Block Rating and Value and has the most interesting interaction with this buff. I'm not saying its huge, and I'll leave the math to others who are better at it, but there IS an impact and I am interested to see some more numbers.
    My thoughts exactly. I'm now going to grab the 4p asap. This WILL make our damage taken pretty spikey tho, but it will be lower overall.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by drae View Post
    Ohhh huuzah for making my incoming damage spikier!

    -Obviously a huge buff while shield block is active. 6k blocked is a ton of block, even against mobs hitting me for 35k.. that's like 15% less damage; enough to change a 2hit kill to a 3hit kill. It will also make damage incoming much spikier won't it? That won't make my healers much happier :/

    No it won't.

    Avoidance makes incoming damage spikier.
    Mitigation makes incoming damage smoother.

    Talking from a healer's perspective (disc priest), avoidance and EHP + Avoidance sucks. The present tanking situation sucks. I hope they fix it, and personally I like where this buff is going.

    Avoidance works thusly, even with a huge HP pool:
    <miss>
    <dodge>
    <parry>
    <dodge>
    <dodge>
    <parry>
    <miss>
    <hit!>
    "ZOMG! HEAL THE TANK! HEAL! HEAL! HEEEAAAAAL!"
    <heal>
    "Crisis averted."
    <miss>
    <dodge>
    <parry>
    <parry>
    <parry> --> Healer begins to yawn because he's not doing anything entertaining
    <parry>
    <dodge>
    <hit>
    <miss> --> Yawn finishes
    "OMG! HE'S LOW! WE GUNNA DIE YO!"
    <hit>
    Your heal fails. Target is dead.
    "Crap"
    Tank: "Where were my heals?"

    Block makes us happy because consistent, manageable damage makes our job more like DPSing. Even if the tank is taking more damage overall, healing consistent damage is less stressful with fewer stretches where we sit around and wait. It allows us to think about the job at hand more, gives us more time to react, and in general makes us happier.

    The most fun I've had as a healer was in a total "we're going to fail but we wanna see it anyway" impromptu ToC the week it came out. We had just finished a guild meeting and were totally stoked about the new raid and just wanted to see the first boss, but only had one of our usual tanks for Ulduar. As a result we pulled the first boss with one tank geared for keepers, and one tank geared for Naxx.

    You can guess what happened to the newbie tank...

    We managed to kill the first NRB with one tank by the skin of our teeth. The damage in was hardly "manageable" by any means, but it was consistent.

    No real worry about overhealing. No worrying about triage. Just healing. It felt like DPSing. Huge crits and all.

    Boss fights should honestly go more like, from the healer's perspective, this:
    <tank pulls>
    "Heals incomming!"
    "BOOM! You see that crit?"
    "He's got nuthin yo! I could do this all day."
    "...and still look this good."
    "Ooo...tripple...no, quad crit!"
    "With a shield chaser. Tell me how much you love the bubbles!"
    Tank: "We loves teh bubbles. No damage, no damage, no damage, I think the boss cried a little there."
    "Lolz! That's right, I bring the holy light."
    "The light burns...but it loooooves me."
    "Crit...new record!"
    "Could I get an innervate?"
    Tank: "Incoming breath. Watch my health!"
    "I'm watching it. Big heals incoming!"
    Tank: "Ouch...damnit!"
    "I gotcha, yeah you love the heals. You know it."
    Tank: "More big damage incoming."
    "What's that mr boss? Deathwing was your daddy?"
    "No he wasn't. You know how I know?"
    "BECAUSE I'M YOUR DADDY NOW! LOOOOOOOVE THE BUBBLEEEEEEEEEEEE!"
    <boss dies>
    "30% mana left. Could you guys have cut that any closer?"

    Seriously. Avoidance and EHP suck to heal. I realize there's nothing we can do about it right now with how gear is stated, but the all or nothing damage thing blows. For this reason alone, any buff they can make to block is a good change. Especially if it comes at the expense of avoidance.

    Honestly, it should be our job to bring enough healing that we can keep you up for as long as the DPS needs to down the boss. But it should be your job to make our jobs, and the DPS's jobs as easy as possible. Right now, DPS is drooling-on-your-keyboard easy for the most part (as in, no stress whatsoever), with tanking being right behind DPS once you get beyond a certain gear level. Sure you've got to manage where the boss is and where he's facing, but beyond that they pretty much took threat generation out of the equation this expansion unless you're talking about an extremely low portion of the DPS population.

    Healing sucks.

    Not as in "woe is me! Healing is so haaaaaaard to dooooooooooo!", but rather from a perspective of stress. The only jollies to be had as a healer right now are honestly the ones you get from being the hardest member of the group/raid to find. Healing is, in practice, no more difficult than DPSing.

    Assuming every mob you fight has a total damage immunity shield on a totally random uptime-downtime timer and you play a mage with nowhere close to infinite mana with expensive spells and if you go OOM from pewpewing the boss while he's immune too much the entire raid fails because he won't die. Except the boss is the tank, and he will die. And he'll take the rest of the raid with him.

    Other than that healing is "Don't stand in the fire" and "pewpew". It's just stressful pewpew.

    This really got off on a tangent...sorta...but I'm going to post it anyway. Because I love block.

  7. #27
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    I think you love paladin's block, and this buff doesn't move warrior's block towards paladin's block at all. This buff does absolutely nothing to make warrior block more consistent. Assuming 60% avoidance and 18% block with 1500 sbv, out of 100 12k hits on the average:

    - 60 will do 0 damage
    - 6 will do 9k damage
    - 12 will do 10,5k damage
    - 22 will do 12k damge

    and in next patch:

    - 60 will do 0 damage
    - 12 will do 9k damage
    - 6 will do 10.5 damage
    - 22 will do 12k damage

    So the proportion of zero tank damage streaks and full tank damage streaks remains exactly teh same. Only the amount of blocked hits changes slightly from 1:2 to 2:1 ratio of big to small blocks.
    Last edited by Hengist; 09-17-2009 at 04:16 AM.

  8. #28
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    I like how you reasoned that with a higher chance to block for more, you'll be taking MORE big hits. No, really, that's some powerful logic there.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    I like how you reasoned that with a higher chance to block for more, you'll be taking MORE big hits. No, really, that's some powerful logic there.
    Just a typo, fixing it now.

  10. #30
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    Cool. Don't forget that you're not intended to block every hit like a pally is though You have worse worst cases(unblocked hits) and better best cases(shield block criticals), and should be taking around the same damage over time.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Cool. Don't forget that you're not intended to block every hit like a pally is though You have worse worst cases(unblocked hits) and better best cases(shield block criticals), and should be taking around the same damage over time.
    I know that I am not intended, but I find it to be simply dumb design. If one dpser does 12k damage each 3 seconds he is basically equal to dpser doining 4k damage each second in most pve situations. On the other hand tank taking 2 huge hits in a row, and then geting critical block isn't equal to a tank who takes three blocked hits in a row, because back-to-back unblocked hits greatly increase probability of tank's death, even if damage taken per second remains the same. Best case and worst case happening randomly do not balance each other, three critical blocks in a row won't bring me back to life if I died second before due to three unblocked hits in a row. That's the whole point.

  12. #32
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    I did some calculations in a spreadsheet focussing on one tank that had 55% avoidance, 18% block chance and 1600 block value (without the 4 piece tier 9) and tank 2 that had 50% avoidance, 20% block and 2080 block value (picking up the head and the legs from T9 (245) gives that much more. So I took in account swapping in some avoidance for block and block value. I didn't account for differing HP and armor possibilities, focussing solely on damage after armor.

    I set hits after armor to 25k (like a hard mode boss) and the swingtimer on 2 seconds (perhaps a little too fast?). Either way the outcome was that the tank focussing on real avoidance took less overall damage. The numbers only started evening out after I gave the 'block tank' more than 2800 blockvalue while keeping all other things as they were (not a realistic scenario).

    I'm sorry but I don't have the time to post calculations here from work... Bottom line for me was hey, nice little buff, sadly the 4 piece T9 isn't worth getting at the moment.
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  13. #33
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    Maybe they should change critical block talent into X% more block rating? (perhaps only from certain sources)

    That would allow warriors to get to max avoidance level faster, providing a far steadier income of damage than it is now AND increase our EH without necessarily decreasing the difficulty while tanking. Not to mention that it would greatly shift gearing more towards block value/rating, instead of the current stepchild status it is now.

  14. #34
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    I've always been rather fond of block, not only because it gives large Shield Slam damage, but because shaving 2k damage off of a blow DOES make for overall less damage taking during a prolonged raid encounter. If a boss hits you forty times for 20k a shot, and you block even ten of those, that's 20k less damage you took then you would have if you didn't have the ability to block. If you block 3-4k with a Critical Block, off a 20k hit, that's a damage reduction of 15 - 20% - equivalent to a LOT of armor. Granted, it's not a constant like armor is, and even with an increased chance to critically block, its not a given that you will always get a block, but every little bit helps. While it's true that avoidance and EH are mandatory on bosses who hit for ridiculous amounts with every shot, this doesn't mean that block is a worthless throw-away stat... just that there are certain situations where it's more viable then others. It can also be handy in those fights were you're taking both big incoming hits and a lot of little smaller ones at the same time (because plenty of bosses hit with both 12-26k shots and some 3-5k shots from adds, random stuff, etc. It's not always blockable, but some of it is).

    And besides... most warrior tanks take Critical Block anyway, so why not look favorably on a buff to an ability we already have, even if it's not a great fix to the block problem?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eravian View Post
    And besides... most warrior tanks take Critical Block anyway, so why not look favorably on a buff to an ability we already have, even if it's not a great fix to the block problem?
    Cause I'm considering the possibility that with a slow weapon and the Devastate glyph, I could drop critical block and imp Revenge in favor of other talents, keeping the same TPS with a single macro and more avoidance.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Maybe they should change critical block talent into X% more block rating? (perhaps only from certain sources)

    That would allow warriors to get to max avoidance level faster, providing a far steadier income of damage than it is now AND increase our EH without necessarily decreasing the difficulty while tanking. Not to mention that it would greatly shift gearing more towards block value/rating, instead of the current stepchild status it is now.
    When I looked at block in detail the largest chunk in blocked damage occurs when shield block is up. Currently you´d get a lot more mileage out of block value than block rating.

    What you suggest makes us start blocking like paladins (factcheck please: are they still doing that in T9 content?) on every blow we don´t avoid. That's nice and all but arguably a quite boring implementation of block...

    The more I look at block the more I start to see in Ghostcrawlers comments about tank health and boss hits. That would be the real fixing point for blocking - the current block/blockvalue mechanic is neigh impossible to tune without breaking of to either side of the coin.
    My lack of proper signature actually is a proud minimalistic stand

  17. #37
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    My problem is almost every single boss in the game is specifically tuned to negate the effects of block. It's like they were so terrified that critical block was going to be game breaking in beta that they designed boss fights that basically negated it by hitting so hard and slow.

    In the end critical block sucked horribly yet most bosses still hit with the same extremely hard and slow mentality. A nice balance of swing speeds on bosses would be nice. Rather than the LK trend that either the boss hits like a truck, the boss hits for magical damage, or the boss damage on the tank is negligible so that healers can focus on other mechanics of the fight.

    For melee characters their are 5 specs that focus on DW or fast attacks (feral cat, rogue, shaman, fury, frost dps) and 4 that focus on slow or 2h dps (arms, DK, ret, feral bear). Why is it that of the 39 raid bosses we have, so far only one of them is fast hitting melee damage.

  18. #38
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    Maybe it would be worth checking BV-based trinkets such as Lavanthor's talisman again ? Not for progression, obviously, but for 10 man fights involving fast-hitting bosses... I would love to see some numbers pre and post 3.2.2 in terms of mitigation anyway.

  19. #39
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    Block would be a lot better if they brought back the old shield block, where your next two hits are guaranteed to block (or was it three? I can't remember).

    Don't bring crushes back, just bring back the old shield block skill.

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