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Thread: Protection DPSing

  1. #1
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    Protection DPSing

    I have become bored lately, and have a tank and heal set. Perhaps I should be working on them, but my guild issued me a challenge:

    DPS as protection spec, in a non-tank position.

    Purely as fun of course, but I want to see if it could be put into practice.

    I am asking this in theorycraft section as I do not know of anyone who does this, and the values and calculations would be mostly theoretical at the moment.

    What are people's opinions on this topic?

    I'm up for a challenge!

  2. #2
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    Both my specs are Prot so when I’m not tanking I DPS as prot spec.

    Gear wise I put all my BV gear on first (be careful of hitting the DR) then fill the gaps with Ret or PvP gear gemmed for Strength and hit.

    I’ve cracked over 3k doing it a couple of times which is acutely more dps then I put out in my Ret set anyway.

    Just don’t try it on Vex.

  3. #3
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    Oh man, thanks, that sounds like a lot of fun.

    So, for stats go for Strength and Hit and how about Armor Pen at all?

    Sorry I sound a bit noobish but what does DR stand for? I'm used to saying the names of stuff fully and not using acronyms, hehe.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juu View Post
    Sorry I sound a bit noobish but what does DR stand for? I'm used to saying the names of stuff fully and not using acronyms, hehe.
    Diminishing Returns.
    The Shield Slam skills (Shield Slam, Shield of the Righteous) have been given a cap of how much extra damage they get from block. Once you hit 2400 (80*30), your damage starts diminishing. Once you hit 2760 (80*34.5) block value, you have reached the maximum benefit from block value as far as the damage increase of these abilities. You can still go over that number for mitigation purposes, but no longer gain any extra damage to the Shield Slams. (Yes, the [level]*30 and 34.5 are pretty random numbers, but that's what Blizzard chose)
    "Upon an order we plead, with the lure of a song, a sacred song, to the moon and the stars. An illusionary light is here placed."

  5. #5
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    Diminishing Returns. The only dps you get from BV is for ShoR, but ShoR has a DR equation to cap the amount of damage it does. So getting more BV past a certain point no longer gives you any more damage. It of course still adds mitigation, but since we are talking about DPS, then that isn't much help.

    In terms of the stats you should stack Theck over at maintankadin did a threat stat analyis in the Advanced Training forum there. I believe the order is:

    STR > BV > Hit > Expertise. Once you hit or get close enough to the BV dps cap, then it becomes

    STR > Hit > Expertise.

    Or something like that. The site is down currently, so I can't double check those just yet.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuffmuffin View Post
    Diminishing Returns.
    The Shield Slam skills (Shield Slam, Shield of the Righteous) have been given a cap of how much extra damage they get from block. Once you hit 2400 (80*30), your damage starts diminishing. Once you hit 2760 (80*34.5) block value, you have reached the maximum benefit from block value as far as the damage increase of these abilities. You can still go over that number for mitigation purposes, but no longer gain any extra damage to the Shield Slams. (Yes, the [level]*30 and 34.5 are pretty random numbers, but that's what Blizzard chose)
    That's not quite how it works.

    DR starts kicking in for sure at 2400 BV, but it doesn't stop at 2760 BV. 2760 is the maximum amount of damage you can get from BV, but it takes more BV that that to get there. I think it is somewhere around 3100 BV that you start to cap out (I.E. 3100ish BV gives you about 2760ish extra damage to ShoR).

    EDIT: Here is a chart to illustrate (values are before damage modifiers):
    Code:
    BV    Extra Dmg
    ----  ----
    2400  2400
    2413  2413
    2439  2436
    2454  2450
    2475  2468
    2521  2506
    2627  2584
    2673  2614
    2825  2691
    2978  2740
    3022  2749
    3025  2750
    3041  2752
    3087  2758
    3100  2759
    3117  2760
    3130  2760
    Last edited by jere; 09-13-2009 at 06:00 PM.

  7. #7
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    DR = Diminishing returns, once you reach 2700ish Block Value it starts to lose value as a DPS stat pretty quickly. Stats order i would go something like

    BV > Str > Hit > Exp but don’t skimp on Hit if you have a decent yellow socket bonus take a hit gem or two.

    In terms of a rotation you won’t follow a stick 96969 rotation but you really want to keep the two 6sec abilities separated. If you use them next to each other it creates a lot more conflicts. Theck did a really good writeup about interlocking FCFS roatations somewhere that is worth a read.

    Glyph AS for sure, it is a massive burst of damage.

  8. #8
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    AS?

  9. #9
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    Cheers Jere,

    I knew the cap was 3100ish but i wasnt sure of the numbers under that. From the looks of the chart you probably want to stop stacking BV at around 2800 including libram.

    AS = Avenger Shield

    Im logged out in my PvP gear which isnt far off my Prot-DPS gear...
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    Last edited by Irat; 09-13-2009 at 06:05 PM. Reason: armory

  10. #10
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    haha tytyty imma noob

  11. #11
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    Oh, thanks Jere. I knew the 2760 number was a cap of whatever sort, didn't particularly care to research the full effect since I don't really use my shield tanks. Good to know though
    "Upon an order we plead, with the lure of a song, a sacred song, to the moon and the stars. An illusionary light is here placed."

  12. #12
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    Though it can be a fun thing to try, it's much more easier to dps as a retribution paladin. You can pick up quite some gear without any big effort (leather pieces, naxx stuff, badges stuff, new ToC HC / normal).

    I mean.. Sure people can do 3k dps when they really try and are lucky, but everyone can do that as a retri with HC gear (and raid buffed). Plus, you bring more utility to the raid as a retri (:

    Just my two cents of course ^^
    is a bit of a retired Tankadin at the moment

  13. #13
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    I think the point is that he has a Holy offspec, Prot mainspec and doesn't necessarily want to change either to Ret, yet also realises that there are some fights where only one tank is needed and a Holy Paladin is not the ideal choice.



  14. #14
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    She, lol but yes, that is exactly what I mean!

    Sometimes on monday nights I want to cram in a raid and (very rarely) the spots are all full for tanks/heals. Also, if I don't have enough gear for a certain fight, I don't want to be carried, I want to be able to contribute (aka dps).

    ALSO, I love prot spec and how all the attacks pan out. Sooo much fun. I never want to do retri ever ever again. xD (I know retri is great but I <3 prot. Not hating on people!)

    Sooooo yeah.

    If BV has a cap, couldn't you get higher dps after that with strength, and keeping the BV at its cap? I mean, there can't be a SET damage cap for prot palis. (well, within reason, of course there's the damage cap of like, 5-6k whatever, for everyone)

    And to confirm: Sword and shield?

  15. #15
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    I think it's a fun challenge not an actual solution. As a prot/holy myself, if we only need one tank, I bump a healer (shaman/priest, usually) to DPS and I go from tank to holy. Finding 5-6 in a raid healers with all heal dualspec would be spectacularly rare.

    Ever since they buffed prot to be self sufficient while soloing, BV has been the mechanism to achieve good DPS. Warriors can try and use Devastates instead in the latest patch, but I haven't looked too deeply into that. Paladins don't have a really strong single target weapon strike to followup a shield to the face (HotR is closest, but its balanced around hitting several targets). I'm just wondering if it's better to strap on STR heavy DPS gear or a mix of BV/DPS gear, as I would think BV Would be move valuable than STR before you hit 2400.

    From an item budget level, how much is STR and how much is BV?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    From an item budget level, how much is STR and how much is BV?
    BV is much cheaper than STR, but STR is still better per itemization point. I'd point you to my maintankadin thread, but they've taken the site down for upgrades temporarily. Here's the plot I would have pointed you to though, from the 3.2 analysis:



    As you can see, despite getting 3x more BV per itemization point, STR still wins across the board. This means that 10 STR will always be > 30 BV up to 2400 BV, and gets far better afterwards.

    Also note that after around 3000 block value, you're better served by stacking hit to the melee cap (8%) before returning to STR again, because the threat you get from the 2 STR -> 1 BV conversion diminishes the same way block value's threat does.

    As a side note, this is going to change even more in 3.2.2 thanks to the TbtL change. You'll gain an additional ~1.5-2 DPS per point of STR, making it even better yet than BV (and probably Hit too, even under cap).
    "Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
    MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0

  17. #17
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    I've seen a paladin in conquest vendor gear pull over 2.5k dps in full prot spec so it's easily doable without even theory crafting.

    This was also done while tanking.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juu View Post
    She, lol
    My apologies



  19. #19
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    I typically hit 2.3-2.5k-ish DPS while tanking. My highest while tanking has been 3.8k with Heroism on a zerg of Sarth 3D 10-man. Embarassingly, that's higher than I usually get in my Ret stuff, though some of my Ret gear is pretty woeful :P



  20. #20
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    Oh, what we mean is dps in a non-tank position, in prot spec. So... without righteous fury. When there's someone else tanking.

    i.e. hodir when there's only one tank necessary.

    Or even just going into a raid only as a dps.

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