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Thread: DK tanking changes in PTR build

  1. #21
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    I've done a little testing of Rune Strike with Threat of Thassarian on the PTR. Rune Strike still only activates to replace a main-hand strike. Currently, it appears to be bugged, as I'm getting the main-hand strike and *two* off-hand strikes every time it hits. It does not reset the off-hand swing timer - there are many cases of Rune Strike hitting, and then the off-hand weapon hitting with a regular swing a fraction of a second later.

    Incidentally, Improved Icy Talons appears not to be working on the PTR. Assuming they fix both of these bugs, DW frost tanks can expect threat to increase by 10-15%.

  2. #22
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    Glyphed bone shield will now only have 4 charges. Still a buff (8 bones per 2 minute period), but this will definitely crush my hopes of 100% up time

  3. #23
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    Well, certainly looks like except against gimmicky magic attacks UBA is gonna be the best defensive cooldown option now. But parity is much much closer in this patch than it is now at least.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheYanger View Post
    Well, certainly looks like except against gimmicky magic attacks UBA is gonna be the best defensive cooldown option now. But parity is much much closer in this patch than it is now at least.
    I don't know why you'd say that. I can't see a strong basis for such a proposition, except on lower-geared tanks perhaps whose avoidance means bone shield dissipates too fast?

    Only a few posts earlier in fact I showed that bone shield has higher damage reduction than UBA, plus of course BS mitigates all damage not just physical.

    I suppose it comes down to how long 4 charges stay up, and whether UBA remains 20s duration or also gets reduced (I'd expects duratio it to be reduced to 15 seconds to be in line with other tank cooldowns).

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    Also I've done and updated a google xls calculator which, using Kurens figure on dk.info, shows UA gives 32.65% total damage reduction and 31.81% if glyphed.

    I compared this to the net reduction bone shield + armour gives you (ie. unholy tank), and they're surprisingly close albeit BS is ahead by 1.7% or so. Therefore, this truly is a solid buff to UA.
    Last edited by GravityDK; 09-14-2009 at 04:00 AM.
    The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.

  5. #25
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    Glyph of Bone Shield will add 1 additional charge to your BS instead of 2. So 3 total bones vs 4 total bones.

    If you're planning to use BS like the old 1 minute IBF (cooldown win) then it needs to last the full 15 seconds of a boss ability (I'm thinking of things like Molten Fists, Surge of Darkness, etc).

    On a 2.5 second boss swing timer and character sheet avoidance of 50% (most DKs will have higher total, I'm just trying to factor in diminishing returns and bad RNG), three bones should be sufficient no? Glyph of BS would, using the assumptions above, be worth only 5 more seconds of bone shield.

    Perhaps this glyph slot could be used to shore up the dismal single target threat of UH.

  6. #26
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    With a 1 min CD back, I'd glyph it and use it obscenely, the way I used to. Pre-buff, reapply on CD. With 4 bones and Naxx gear's worth of avoidance plus 10% parry from Blade Barrier (interesting a bit shy of where I am now) I had uptimes of 25-40 sec depending on situation, I once watched it last the full CD on Patchwerk, but that was terribly lucky.

    I suppose when it comes to later raid level tanking you may want it more on demand, but I'd err on the side of as much uptime as possible, try to get pacing down, and save IBF for the times you need a CD and don't have Bone Shield up.
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  7. #27
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    So you would say that 1 extra bone on the bone shield is worth a major glyph slot?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhthomps View Post
    So you would say that 1 extra bone on the bone shield is worth a major glyph slot?
    If it is worth it now, it's still worth it after the patch. Currently the glyph gives 2 bones per 2 minutes. After the patch it will still be 2 bones per 2 minutes. The glyph of Vampiric Blood is in the same boat: pre-patch 10 sec per 2 minutes; post-patch 10 sec per 2 minutes.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craxs View Post
    If it is worth it now, it's still worth it after the patch. Currently the glyph gives 2 bones per 2 minutes. After the patch it will still be 2 bones per 2 minutes. The glyph of Vampiric Blood is in the same boat: pre-patch 10 sec per 2 minutes; post-patch 10 sec per 2 minutes.
    It's true from maths but that also depend how you use it: if you use it like satorri said, every time is up then the glyph worth it; if you use it to counter a spike damage from the boss however it rarely last more than 10 sec; so 5 more sec may not worth it.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanorr View Post
    It's true from maths but that also depend how you use it: if you use it like satorri said, every time is up then the glyph worth it; if you use it to counter a spike damage from the boss however it rarely last more than 10 sec; so 5 more sec may not worth it.
    This is what I had in mind - using it to counter all spike damage like pre-nerf IBF (Steelbreaker, Koralon, Vezax, use it when the other tank taunts Gormok off of you). Boss abilities mostly last about 15 seconds (nothing longer that that is coming to mind now but who knows), so the extra bone would mainly serve to help counter bad RNG. I'd like to try SS-Unholy Blight-Dark Death glyph to shore up UH single-target threat.

    Then again 3 bones could go away in as little as 5-8 seconds depending on the boss (no I won't be UH for algalon). This is probably an issue I'll have to answer for myself when 3.2.2 rolls around.

    Right now I'm curious about:
    1) Are there any forms of spike damage that last longer than 15 seconds?
    2) TOC, with it's lack of spike damage and plethora of physical damage would probably be better tanked as frost (or blood). If not frost then as Satorri mentioned you would use BS everytime it's up. Ulduar (cooldown style tanking) might not require more than 3 bones
    3) What is the threat tradeoff? (A few more seconds of 20% extra damage, vs glyph of unholy blight)
    4) Does the question even matter? With the RNG style of BS an extra bone could just be "mandatory" for aspiring UH tanks.

    To put this into context I raid in a 10 man only guild, we have cleared normal Trial of the Crusader and Vezax.

  11. #31
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    1) Are there any forms of spike damage that last longer than 15 seconds?
    2) TOC, with it's lack of spike damage and plethora of physical damage would probably be better tanked as frost (or blood). If not frost then as Satorri mentioned you would use BS everytime it's up. Ulduar (cooldown style tanking) might not require more than 3 bones
    3) What is the threat tradeoff? (A few more seconds of 20% extra damage, vs glyph of unholy blight)
    4) Does the question even matter? With the RNG style of BS an extra bone could just be "mandatory" for aspiring UH tanks.
    if you're asking whether or not you should bother glyph'ing BS as unholy in 3.2.2, then I think the answer is unequivocally yes, you should. I think blizzard assumes you'll have the glyph while tanking, because 3 charges isn't going to get you much in the way of additional mitigation unless you're using it to ward off a single attack, like a Fusion Punch. I also don't see it getting you through 15 seconds worth of Meteor Fists on Koralon. as for your other questions, I can't think of any fights where spike damage, in the way that it's discussed and mentioned on this forum, lasts longer than 15 seconds. Fusion punch is more or less a one-shot deal when it occurs; Koralon's meteor fist was already mentioned, which is exactly 15 seconds in duration. If a spike damage moment is lasting longer than 15 seconds, I doubt blizzard would balance it around the idea that you're using a mitigation cooldown to get through it.

  12. #32
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    Look at it this way: 1 more bone/charge may seem like a small thing, but, it is a 33% increase in your charges, which in a large sample, is essentially a 33% increase in the duration of the unglyphed shield.

    33% increase in duration of 20% decreased damage? Sounds like paydirt for a tank to me.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  13. #33
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    I rate unholy highly. I love bone shield and all its anti-magic tricks.

    I've decided I'm happy with the UA glyph too if you do not need more threat, then why not use it.

    That said, I still think blood has an edge over the others in a raid MT situation, but would rank unholy 2nd.
    The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.

  14. #34
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    lol, i'm stubborn. ignoring the fact that i enjoy DW tanking, I prefer the "feel" of frost to the other two trees. the increased throughput of blood scares me, and I don't like the way boneshield functions. frost just feels more reliable to me, and i can't imagine being without Howling Blast O.o

  15. #35
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    As far as TPS goes, how does Unholy stack up vs Blood and Frost atm?

    I was an Unholy tank for a long time, until the guild got into Ulduar and I was having trouble keeping my threat above our DPS. I switched to Frost and haven't had threat problems since.

  16. #36
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    In the Kahorie sim I use (which has some limitations, like it can't model rune strike nor that you are facing the boss so your rotation can't be as tight as a DPSer), I found Frost 2Her does ~8% more tps than the new Unholy.

    i think, unless you're really pushing content and need every inch of tps you can get, Unholy will have enough.

    I TRULY hope that Live is reasonably consistent with the simulation; i like unholy too.
    Last edited by GravityDK; 09-22-2009 at 03:48 PM.
    The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyd View Post
    lol, i'm stubborn. ignoring the fact that i enjoy DW tanking, I prefer the "feel" of frost to the other two trees. the increased throughput of blood scares me, and I don't like the way boneshield functions. frost just feels more reliable to me, and i can't imagine being without Howling Blast O.o
    As a proud member of club loldw, I can definitely back you up on this sentiment. I never could get the hang of Unholy, and Blood just feels too spiky to me. Frost is nice and steady, and gets 3% avoid, which can't be overlooked, and constant 2% mitigation other specs don't.

    Add in the fact that DW lets you use real tank weapons, and the buff to ToT, loldw is becoming less and less lolworthy by the day!

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by lyd View Post
    i can't imagine being without Howling Blast O.o
    I agree. Howling Blast is the bomb, especially when glyphed.

    I'm overjoyed with the changes to Frost Tanking. Can't wait to try it out later. The ToT change is going to be so incredibly interesting

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