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Thread: Stacking defense rating over parry and dodge?

  1. #1

    Stacking defense rating over parry and dodge?

    I've seen posts here hinting at the fact that stacking defense rating is better than stacking either dodge or parry. Are there any solid numbers to confirm this?

  2. #2
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    it's really kind of hard to just simply "stack" defense versus avoidance because of the way blizzard itemizes gear. most epic tanking pieces have a mix of defense and avoidance stats on them. as far as gemming is concerned, I've always been of the opinion that once you have the defense cap you should be gemming for stamina to increase your Effective Health, because avoidance kind of comes on its own as gear improves. also consider that avoidance is subject to diminishing returns, even when it comes from Defense Skill. so the more of it you stack, the less benefit you get from it per point:

    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...avoidance.html

    if you find yourself having to make a choice between two pieces of gear based on raw avoidance and defense skill, just do the comparison on a piece-by-piece basis. if one increases your total avoidance more than the other without sacrificing other stats to an unreasonable degreee, i'd say wear it. I wouldn't say you need to worry so much about stacking one over the other, unless you're worried that you might fall under cap. However, if you're ever unsure, I would say err on the side of defense.

  3. #3
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    I would agree with the above post, but I would add 2 more things"
    1) Tanks must balance threat and survival, if you have 540 defense without having to gem for it and you want to know what to gem/enchant, check that your threat stats are in line.
    2) While stacking defense keep an eye for your "Chance to be missed", the hidden components to defense. Defense has 5 effects
    • Increase dodge by 0.04% per point
    • Increase parry by 0.04% per point
    • Increase block by 0.04% per point
    • Increase chance to be missed by 0.04% per point
    • Decrease chance to be critically hit by 0.04% beyond attacker's weapon skill (which is where we get 540 defense cap)
    The chance to be missed is on your tooltips as you hover your mouse over defense stats, but not an entry on its own like dodge/parry/block. It is also important to note that it is also subject to diminishing returns.

  4. #4
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    The character sheet doesn't show post-diminishing returns Miss, unfortunately so I'd recommend a macro or addon that will calculate it. Tankadin2 works for Paladins (and presumably other classes) in this respect.

    Due to DR, it's not usually immediately clear whether a piece with lots of Defense Rating offers more overall avoidance than a piece with lots of a single avoidance stat, I'd recommend using RatingBuster - it'll show you how much of each stat you gain or lose compared what what you're wearing now, factoring in all diminishing returns, gains from Defense Rating, etc.



  5. #5
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    Theck's estimates come uncomfortably close to how DR really works, Defense rating past 689, dodge rating past 72~ and parry past 98~ should follow, optimally, a proportion of roughly 1,8:2,4:1 or something like that.

  6. #6
    Thanks for the responses. I already use ratingbuster (such a great mod).

    @Synapse
    Could you explain the ratio you mentioned in your post (1,8:2,4:1) please. I saw a thread here on the forum that has similar ratios and I just can't make heads or tails of what it means.

  7. #7
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    What that means is do the following :
    1)Subtract the values mentioned (689, 72, 98) from what you actually have.
    2)Divide all of the numbers by the result of the Parry number.
    3)The results can then be analyzed to see where you want to go with your gear.

    example : 715 Def, 112 Dodge, 111 Parry.
    Subtracting the bases gives 26:35:13
    Divide them all by parry(13) gives 2:2.69:1
    Comparing that to 1.8:2.4:1 shows both Defense and Dodge as being higher than the optimal ratio. The solution to such a case is increase your parry (probably at the expense of some dodge).

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyffyr View Post
    What that means is do the following :
    1)Subtract the values mentioned (689, 72, 98) from what you actually have.
    2)Divide all of the numbers by the result of the Parry number.
    3)The results can then be analyzed to see where you want to go with your gear.

    example : 715 Def, 112 Dodge, 111 Parry.
    Subtracting the bases gives 26:35:13
    Divide them all by parry(13) gives 2:2.69:1
    Comparing that to 1.8:2.4:1 shows both Defense and Dodge as being higher than the optimal ratio. The solution to such a case is increase your parry (probably at the expense of some dodge).

    WoW...that's some interesting math. I'll keep this in mind when gearing up.

    Off topic: Tanking gear is on the up and up and when I originally posted this I was just under 20k hp with 535 def skill....now at 25k hp and 546 def skill

  9. #9
    Ok, just did the math for this and these are my starting numbers (keep in mind that I'm a dk dual wielding with swordbreaking on each weapon:
    710:203:191

    Numbers after subtraction:
    21:131:93

    Numbers after division:
    1,61:10,07:7,15

    Clearly these numbers are a lot higher than suggested but the thing is I have no gems or enchants that add to dodge or parry.

    Here's my armory link:
    WoW Armory - Unruley

  10. #10
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    @ Venum Rush I think something went wrong with the divisions

    your numbers after division are
    (21/93=)0,23: (131/93=)1,41: (93/93=)1

  11. #11
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    What I did was simply compare the effects of the three stats using...
    Rune of Repulsion - Item - World of Warcraft
    Repelling Charge - Item - World of Warcraft
    Valor Medal of the First War - Item - World of Warcraft

    It shows me I get almost as much avoidance from defense as I get from dodge, and defense does more then just avoidance (plus the avoidance gained is partially better then dodge) so defense wins out for me.
    I used an avoidance calculater macro, of course.
    Come to think of it, I used a calculator that I need to update. Damn.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nickolaas View Post
    @ Venum Rush I think something went wrong with the divisions

    your numbers after division are
    (21/93=)0,23: (131/93=)1,41: (93/93=)1
    Aaaaah ok, I totally misunderstood the division. I thought 13 was just a base number used universally.

    That makes so much more sense now. Thanks for clearing that up

  13. #13
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    I never really thought about defense comparisons because T9 gear has so much of it.

    My pally has 732 702 366 which equals 43 630 268

    When you divide that out it is .16 2.35 1

    Technically if I cared about nothing but avoidance with these calculations, I could stack almost 500 more defense rating to equal my parry rating. I know that wasn't the whole point of the thread but by these numbers defense would always be stacked over dodge or parry rating. Atleast for me

  14. #14
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    The same as Kelthor here.

    Here are my stats as a DK with the +25 def rune on my 2H sword. Then :
    Def : 685 + 123 (that's for the flat 25 def on the sword, short approx as these are not subject to DR and all, but will do just for that).
    Dodge : 571 (50 of these are from geming)
    Parry : 439 (none from geming).

    Then I'll just do the maths from above :
    781 / 571 / 439
    92 / 499 / 341
    0.26 / 1.46 / 1

    Let's say that I've overgem in dodge and regem that in def the numbers should be :
    142 / 449 / 341
    0.41 / 1.32 / 1

    And if I would just get the def rating to let the ration be 1.8, I'll be looking for 1300 def ratin on the stuff.

    Am I wrong somewhere ?

  15. #15
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    After reading this I decided to plug in my numbers. I hope I'm calculating the defense correctly, since I'm a DK with Stoneskin. I just took 157 and multiplied by 4.9. I have a feeling it's not the same =\

    Defense 557 (769 rating)
    Dodge 506
    Parry 580

    Values before subtraction: 769/434/482
    Values after subtraction: 80/434/482
    Final ratio: .16 : .9 : 1

    The goal ratio is 1.8 : 2.4 : 1
    1.8 is 75% of 2.4, and my .16 is 17% of .9

    That's a pretty huge discrepancy. Does this mean I need to stack more defense? Problem I'm having is I can figure out what my ratio is, but I'm having trouble understanding what to do with it once I know what it is.

  16. #16
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    That's the problem. Even if this technic is the good one to balance stats, all it is saying is : gem for def and not anyhting else.

    I really don't know what to do with red sockets now :s

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrke View Post
    That's the problem. Even if this technic is the good one to balance stats, all it is saying is : gem for def and not anyhting else.

    I really don't know what to do with red sockets now :s

    Not only def...dodge as well.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrke View Post
    I really don't know what to do with red sockets now :s
    Expertise and depending on class Crit comes to mind.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrke View Post
    I really don't know what to do with red sockets now :s
    Expertise and depending on class Crit comes to mind. So just choose Def vs Sta based on what you currently miss more when fighting, and pick the red stat for Exp below cap and Str or Crit above cap.
    Assuming you want the socketbonus ofc, but then I found I can always use a tad more Expertise.
    SQUEAK.
    -- (The Death of Rats, Terry Pratchett, Soul Music)

  20. #20
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    Just for the record:
    This is the thread that originally spawned the discussion, and this is the post where I calculated the 2.4:1.8:1 Dodge:Def:Parry rule:
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck
    1. Take current ratings and subtract out 689 def, 96 dodge, and 64 parry
    2. Figure out your current ratio of dodge:def:parry
    3. if one of these is higher than the ideal ratio of 2.4:1.8:1, swap out some of the rating that's above the target ratio for a rating that's below or at the target value.
    4. Recalculate and lather, rinse, repeat.
    That being said, there's a much easier way that nets you results that are almost as good:
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck
    Keep
    (character_sheet_dodge_% - base_dodge_%)/(character_sheet_parry_% - base_parry_%) = 1.88
    to maximize avoidance. Look up your base dodge and parry. Don't forget to do this while fully raid buffed (MotW, Kings, Libram procs, etc.).

    Here's the post where I compare the different algorithms and show that they're always within about 0.05% avoidance of one another, regardless of how "inefficient" you are with the defense rating -> skill conversion (i.e. regardless of whether you try and actively micro-manage defense or not).

    Also, standard disclaimer: This system is really only useful for making decisions like gems, where you have a choice of an equal amount of dodge and parry rating. It's entirely possible to be in a situation where you have a ratio of 2.0 dodge:parry and still have more avoidance by choosing something with 20 dodge over something with 15 parry, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck
    First of all, don't slavishly follow this advice. This is for maximizing avoidance if you have two options with equal amounts of rating (i.e a gem with 10 dodge or 10 parry). It doesn't help you decide whether that item with 30 dodge rating is better or worse than another item with 60 parry rating. Use your own good judgment, or an addon such as RatingBuster for items with greatly disparate stat allocations.
    "Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
    MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0

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