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Thread: Glyphed Devastate Threat; napkin math

  1. #21
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    Are you certain (as was suggested in your math) that devastate is not normalized for AP contribution? wowwiki says it is, which could be wrong, but if it is normalized, that swings the math heavily in favor of a fast weapon.

  2. #22
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    I have yet to see any proof of normalization and can't currently test it because I'm stuck on slowband for another week (d/l limits FTL).

    If anyone could tell me if it is normalized (and to be certain, check the normalized speed as well please). I would agree that with a normalized Devastate a fast weapon would probably win with Heroic Strike, with slow weapons purely for rage-starved situations benefitting Deep Wounds.
    Sure hope it's not normalized though, would be a nice waste of time I did here if it was

  3. #23
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    I'm pretty sure it is -

    Devastate - Spell - World of Warcraft

    Note the 'normalized weapon damage' for effect2.

    I'm planning on doing some pretty heavy number crunching in the near future to model the difference in attack speed, and see if there's any point where other abilities can be taken out of the rotation, thus simplifying some talent build decisions. Certainly this changes things significantly if it is in fact true, particular in favor of fast weapons (which will still get a nice slow benefit from the 2.4 normalized speed [unless you use a dagger, at which point it drops to 1.7]).

  4. #24
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    It also says normalized weapon damage on Whirlwind - Spell - World of Warcraft, kinda not trusting Wowhead on this one.

    I might have time somewhere this weekend or next week to do some tests, but I don't have a slow 1H weapon atm, so if anyone has one lying around, feel free to test for me

    Edit: Also, on Heroic Strike - Spell - World of Warcraft it says weapon damage (+ 495) while Devastate effect 1 is weapon % dmg (because of the old 50-60%). It would ofcourse be awesome if Devastate did weapon damage AND normalized, but we would've noticed that by now, right?

  5. #25
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    I've been doing some napkin math for some number crunching myself here - not completely done as of yet, but it's appearing as if the 2.6 weapon might be the way to go for tanking, as it affects the average weapon damage for deep wounds, which increases damage and threat on all of your tanking abilities. Should have some postable numbers soon - my initial math forgot to take one handed weapon spec into account.

  6. #26
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    Good job, but I have a question.

    Did you include gag order(10% shield slam dmg), because I can't find it?

    EDIT: Might also add that devastate is normalized.(unless they've made a change I wasn't aware about)
    EDIT2: You should include dmg reduction from armor aswell, since the base threat is not affected by armor, but the damage isn't. Assuming a boss with 13083 armor(still applies for all bosses?) you should have a 38.9% reduction with major + minor reduce armor debuff.
    Last edited by Rashor; 09-11-2009 at 05:53 AM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rashor View Post
    Good job, but I have a question.

    Did you include gag order(10% shield slam dmg), because I can't find it?

    EDIT: Might also add that devastate is normalized.(unless they've made a change I wasn't aware about)
    EDIT2: You should include dmg reduction from armor aswell, since the base threat is not affected by armor, but the damage isn't. Assuming a boss with 13083 armor(still applies for all bosses?) you should have a 38.9% reduction with major + minor reduce armor debuff.
    1) Nope, forgot gag order, will add it now, thank you.
    2) Are you completely certain about that normalization?
    3) I did, as noted, the damage increase from crits and 1H weapon spec etc roughly negates the reduction post-debuff bosses have. This was to keep the math relatively simple so it can still be posted here. I'm however working on a spreadsheet with this included, as well as hit/expertise (for Shockwave/Thunderclap). Might be a while untill I can finish that one though.

  8. #28
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    I can't garantue it to a 100% since I've never tried it myself, but everything points towards it. All websites claims it is and the reason behind the normalization is so that instant attacks won't scale insanely good with slower weapons. So why should devastate be any different?

    I have a spreadsheet like that, with hit/miss/parry, all different talents and a two roll system for both DPS and TPS. It's an excel document so if anyone can name a site where I can upload it I'd be more than happy to share it. It is basicly a TPS/DPS calculator, where you can see your expected damage/threat with each attack and you can insert your stats and everything yourself. Standard rotation with sword and board included, but not with deep wounds so the TPS/DPS calculation isn't 100% exact so I use it mainly to compare abilities.
    Last edited by Rashor; 09-11-2009 at 08:23 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    It also says normalized weapon damage on Whirlwind - Spell - World of Warcraft, kinda not trusting Wowhead on this one.
    Er. Are people mis-understanding weapon normalization in this thread? The contribution from AP is normalized--the contribution from weapon damage is *not* normalized. So slower weapons do hit harder with normalized abilities, and faster weapons hit less hard—but not nearly as much as was the case before normalization was added.

    So the difference in damage between a fast and a slow weapon with a normalized ability might be (assuming attack power is the same), assuming 180 DPS for each of them:

    Fast weapon (1.5s), 180 * 1.5 = 270
    Slow weapon (2.6s), 180 * 2.6 = 468

    That's a difference of 198 per hit, which is not insignificant. Let's assume 3300 AP, just to have a round number. 3300 AP is ~236 DPS. One-handed swords are normalized for 2.4 speed. So the damage from AP is 236 * 2.4 = ~566. So again:

    Fast weapon (1.5s) = 180 * 1.5 + 236 * 2.4 = ~836
    Slow weapon (2.6s) = 180 * 2.6 + 236 * 2.4 = ~1034

    Still a difference of 198 per hit, which in this case adds up to about 19% of the larger hit. So yeah--it adds up.

    For even slower weapons, it adds up even more—and that's why the normalization happened in the first place. Let's look at Whirlwind, with 232 weapon DPS, and 5000 AP:

    Fast 2H weapon (3.1s) = 232 * 3.1 + 357 * 3.3 = ~1897
    Slow 2H weapon (3.6s) = 232 * 3.6 + 357 * 3.3 = ~2013

    A difference of only 116 damage, or only almost 6% of the total. That's because the difference between fast and slow is smaller. If we go back historically to the very fastest and very slowest ever:

    Fastest 2H weapon (2.1s) = 232 * 2.1 + 357 * 3.3 = ~1665
    Slowest 2H weapon (3.9s) = 232 * 3.9 + 357 * 3.3 = ~2083

    A difference of 418 damage, or again like the 1H weapons about 20% of the max value. Now, what would the difference be if it wasn't normalized?

    Fastest 2H weapon (2.1s) = (232 + 357) * 2.1 = ~1237
    Fast 2H weapon (3.1s) = (232 + 357) * 3.1 = ~1826
    Slow 2H weapon (3.6s) = (232 + 357) * 3.6 = ~2120
    Slowest 2H weapon (3.9s) = (232 + 357) * 3.9 = ~2297

    A difference of 1060 damage (46%!) between highest and lowest historical speed, and a difference of 294 damage (14%) between the current high-low range.

    So anyway, yeah: normalization is there, but only on the AP part, not the base weapon damage part. This means there's a measurable difference in performance between fast and slow, but not as nearly overwhelming a difference as there once was. That normalization is definitely there in both Devastate and WW.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia View Post
    So anyway, yeah: normalization is there, but only on the AP part, not the base weapon damage part. This means there's a measurable difference in performance between fast and slow, but not as nearly overwhelming a difference as there once was. That normalization is definitely there in both Devastate and WW.
    That's what I said
    Quote Originally Posted by Rashor View Post
    All websites claims it is and the reason behind the normalization is so that instant attacks won't scale insanely good with slower weapons. So why should devastate be any different?


    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Starting assumptions:
    • A weapon with 1.6 speed has 300 average weapon damage and 1.6/14 = 11.4% AP scaling
    • A weapon with 2.6 speed has 500 average weapon damage and 2.6/14 = 18.6% AP scaling
    Should be

    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Starting assumptions:
    • A weapon with 1.6 speed has 300 average weapon damage and 2.4/14 = 17.1% AP scaling
    • A weapon with 2.6 speed has 500 average weapon damage and 2.4/14 = 17.1% AP scaling
    Good page explaning normalization:
    Normalization - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

  11. #31
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    bingo.

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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    1) Nope, forgot gag order, will add it now, thank you.
    2) Are you completely certain about that normalization?
    3) I did, as noted, the damage increase from crits and 1H weapon spec etc roughly negates the reduction post-debuff bosses have. This was to keep the math relatively simple so it can still be posted here. I'm however working on a spreadsheet with this included, as well as hit/expertise (for Shockwave/Thunderclap). Might be a while untill I can finish that one though.
    It is a lot more complicated, too, than it seems on the surface. Given that different tanking abilities are going to have different crit percentages, it's a lot better to directly take reduction into consideration without making the assumption that it will balance out.

    On top of that, here are a couple of further things to consider:

    1) When determining damage for heroic strike with multiple speeds, one thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that the added crit chance of heroic strike from incite increases the underlying (formerly white) damage due to a higher chance of crit, in addition to making the crit damage subject to impale.
    2) A slower weapon is going to provide a benefit to the threat and damage of abilities other than devastate, as deep wounds is based on weapon damage as well.

    Ideally, when I get the time to sit down and plug out some formulae, I'd really like to make a spreadsheet of it all that will let you enter your gear and will use that to determine the optimal threat rotation and expected TPS - and with that, of course, how it changes when you switch weapons. It'd be a short step from there to determine which stats will work optimally for increasing threat (obviously the common consensus is expertise, but I'd like to make sure it evaluates the impact of strength and armor penetration on threat as well). The early notebook and pen math I've been doing though does seem to point towards a slow weapon working out better overall, though.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    bingo.
    Yup, I messed up and made myself look like a fool. Shame on me!!


    Normalization hits you for 541156106510 damage (crushing).
    Your failing math dies.



    @bacchanal: I actually did all of that (if you (re)read the crit/damage assumption carefully). I even added a small note to HS which already states that Incite (and Impale, did forget that one) is the only AP scaling HS has. I even did the Deep Wounds math today (which now is the only viable math left in here as it disregards that normalization error), which was the hardest part up till now, as I added parry haste to it (thus making my earlier HS threat useless as well, yay for wasted efforts!!).

    I'll take a look at Rachor's spreadsheet, see if I can't merge that with what I have, and once it's done I'll put it up for review in a new thread, because this one is based on wrong numbers from the start off.

  14. #34
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    your work is still appreciated, and the numbers just need to be reworked. =]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  15. #35
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    I've already put most of it in a spreadsheet (so I can fix mistakes faster :P), just need to rewrite parry haste formula so spreadsheets accept it (it's a self-adjusting number).

    So far the only problem I have with basic abilities is Shockwave/TC:
    1) SW/TC don't use expertise, because they're AoE spells, but do they use melee or spell hit?
    2) Tc uses spell crit bonus(150%), does it use spell crit as well and if so, how much is that?
    Those are the only 2 questions I can't solve myself easily, because I don't have access to my decent pc for testing atm.

  16. #36
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    spell hit for sure for SW and TC

    not sure about spell crit for tc. interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  17. #37
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    I know TC used to be spellcrit in tBC, because the first time it ever crit for me was in an heroic with a boomkin :P. Thing is I'm not sure about is if they changed it in WotLK, because I know Shockwave uses melee crit rate.

    Guess I'll need to search WWS for a nice big log of TCs to be sure.

  18. #38
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    BTW, slowest historical speed weapon was 4.0 and it happened 3 times in vanilla and once on a Storm Peaks vendor in WotLK.

    Pendulum of Doom
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    Brunnhildar Great Axe

    Certainly nothing you would likely be using to raid tho

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSquirrel View Post
    BTW, slowest historical speed weapon was 4.0 and it happened 3 times in vanilla and once on a Storm Peaks vendor in WotLK.

    Pendulum of Doom
    The Blackrock Slicer
    The Pacifier
    Brunnhildar Great Axe

    Certainly nothing you would likely be using to raid tho
    This thread is kinda closed, I moved all my math into a spreadsheet which can be found here:
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/5...readsheet.html

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