now try a 2.6-2.8 speed weapon assuming were wearing t9 content gear and have 20 extra defense and can spare the defensive stats on their weapon
A revision of how Devastate with Glyph compares to other threat abilities after it's recent buff.
Below math is wrong, due to me being a complete nabhead and not calculating in normalization as I should be.Thanks to bacchanal, Rashor, Hypatia & Kazey (and all others I missed) for taking the time to read all this and point out my mistakes. /bonk self!!
Note that the Deep Wounds math at the end is still relatively correct, but I will incorporate it into a new calculation/spreadsheet later on to keep it clear of this mess I made :P
Update: Complete spreadsheet is well on it's way and should be complete and ready for review somewhere this week.
As most of you have read by now, Glyph of Devastate currently acts as if you do a Sunder Armor attack on top of the Devastate. With the recent changes to the damage of Devastate, I thought I'ld make a rough threat comparison with our other basic abilities.
- A weapon with 1.6 speed has 300 average weapon damage and 1.6/14 = 11.4% AP scaling
- A weapon with 2.6 speed has 500 average weapon damage and 2.6/14 = 18.6% AP scaling
- Sunder Armor (ability) threat is 315 + 5% AP
- Devastate can be seen as plain damage + a Sunder Armor attack
- Glyph of Devastate adds a second Sunder Armor attack to Devastate
- All threat values not mentioned above are taken from http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/39775-wow-3-0-threat-values.html
- All numbers for Devastate are with the Glyph of Devastate.
- All abilities with +15% crit from talents are calculated as normal hit = average damage (crit damage and overall damage increases negate the boss armor). Abilities that do not have these kind of talents suffer a 10% damage penalty, noted as 'CL' for crit loss. This is a very rough number to make comparing damage and innate threat easier. The last equation containing “dmg” numbers is the one where damage and threat have not been added together.
Devastate threat with glyph:
Devastate = Damage + 2* Sunder Armor attack
* Damage = Weapon damage + AP scaling + base damage per Sunder (debuff)
* Sunder Armor attack = 315 + 5% AP
Devastate = Weapon Damage + AP scaling + base damage per Sunder + 2*(315 + 5% AP)
For a 1.6 speed weapon this becomes
Devastate(1.6) = 300 dmg + (1.6/14 AP) dmg + 1010 dmg + 630 + 10% AP
Devastate(1.6) = 1310 dmg + (11.4% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP
Devastate(1.6) = 1940 + 21.4% AP
For a 2.6 speed weapon this is
Devastate(2.6) = 500 dmg + (2.6/14 AP) dmg + 1010 dmg + 630 + 10% AP
Devastate(2.6) = 1510 dmg + (18.6% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP
Devastate(2.6) = 2140 + 28.6% AP
Shield Slam threat & efficiency comparison:
SS = Gag Order * (base dmg + (actual) block value dmg) + 770 innate threat
SS = 1116.5 dmg + (1.1 * block) dmg + 770
SS = 1886.5 + 1.1 * block
Comparing to Devastate:
SS = Devastate(1.6)
1116.5 dmg + (1.1 * block) dmg + 770 = 1310 dmg + (11.4% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP
1886.5 + 1.1 * block = 1940 + 21.4% AP
1.1 * block = 53.5 + 21.4% AP
block = 48.6 + 19.5% AP
Example: 3000 AP Devastate(1.6) does as much threat as a 633 block value SS. At 4000 AP you need 828 block.
SS = Devastate(2.6)
1116.5 dmg + (1.1 * block) dmg + 770 = 1510 dmg + (18.6% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP
1886.5 + 1.1 * block = 2140 + 28.6% AP
1.1 * block = 253.5 + 28.6% AP
block = 230 + 26% AP
Example: 3000 AP Devastate(2.6) does as much threat as a 1009 block value SS. At 4000 AP you need 1267 block.
Comparing efficiency with 0/3 Focused Rage:
SS = 20 / 15 * Devastate(1.6)
1116.5 dmg + (1.1 * block) dmg + 770 = 4/3 * (1310 dmg + (11.4% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP)
1886.5 + 1.1 * block = 2587 + 28.6% AP
1.1 * block = 700.5 + 28.6% AP
block = 637 + 26% AP
Example: 3000 AP Devastate(1.6) is as efficient as a 1416 block value SS. At 4000 AP this becomes 1676 block.
SS = Devastate(2.6)
1116.5 dmg + (1.1 * block) dmg + 770 = 4/3 * (1510 dmg + (18.6% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP)
1886.5 + 1.1 * block = 2853 + 38.1% AP
1.1 * block = 966.5 + 38.1% AP
block = 879 + 34.6% AP
Example: 3000 AP Devastate(2.6) is as efficient as a 1918 block value SS. At 4000 AP you need 2264 block.
Comparing efficiency with 3/3 Focused Rage:
SS = 17 / 12 * Devastate(1.6)
1116.5 dmg + (1.1 * block) dmg + 770 = 17/12 * (1310 dmg + (11.4% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP)
1886.5 + 1.1 * block = 2748 + 30.4% AP
1.1 * block = 861.5 + 30.4% AP
block = 783 + 27.6% AP
Example: 3000 AP Devastate(1.6) is as efficient as a 1611 block value SS. At 4000 AP this becomes 1887 block.
SS = Devastate(2.6)
1116.5 dmg + (1.1 * block) dmg + 770 = 17/12 * (1510 dmg + (18.6% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP)
1886.5 + 1.1 * block = 3032 + 40.5% AP
1.1 * block = 1145.5 + 40.5% AP
block = 1041 + 36.8% AP
Example: 3000 AP Devastate(2.6) is as efficient as a 2145 block value SS. At 4000 AP you need 2513 block, which is within DR values.
With a slow weapon Devastate and Shield Slam will be very close together in threat (depending highly on your block value). In virtually all cases Devastate is more Rage-efficient than Shield Slam, even reaching into the DR values with a slow weapon and atleast average raiding gear.
Revenge = imp. Revenge * CL * (1615 dmg + (20.7% AP) dmg) + 121
Revenge = 1.2 * 0.9 * (1615 dmg + (20.7% AP) dmg) + 121
Revenge = 1744 dmg + (22.4% AP) dmg + 121
Revenge = 1865 + 22.4% AP
Revenge = Devastate(1.6)
1744 dmg + (22.4%) AP dmg + 121 = 1310 dmg + (11.4% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP
434 dmg + (11% AP) dmg = 509 + 10% AP
75 - 1% AP = 0
The turning point lies far below 0, in favor of Revenge. Only in specific case of high damage reduction is it worth redoing this calculation.
Revenge = Devastate(2.6)
1744 dmg + (22.4% AP) dmg + 121 = 1510 dmg + (18.6% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP
234 dmg + (3.8% AP) dmg = 509 + 10% AP
0 = 275 + 6.2% AP
Again we have a negative turning point, but this time in favor of Devastate.
A fast weapon can never catch up to Revenge. A slow weapon on the other hand makes Revenge obsolete TPS-wise. Revenge is still far more efficient in all cases though.
Concussion Blow, Shockwave and Heroic Throw:
Concussion Blow = Shockwave = CL * (75% AP) dmg
Heroic Throw = CL * (12 dmg + (50% AP) dmg) * 1.5
With the exception of the amazing 12 base damage on Heroic Throw, all 3 abilities scale the same with AP, with no innate threat. I'll be comparing against Shockwave, but it will apply to all three.
Shockwave = CL * (75% AP) dmg
Shockwave = (67.5% AP) dmg
Shockwave = Devastate(1.6)
(67.5% AP) dmg = 1310 dmg + (11.4% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP
(56.1% AP) dmg – 1310 dmg = 630 + 10% AP
46.1% AP = 1940
AP = 4210
Shockwave = Devastate(2.6)
(67.5% AP) dmg = 1510 dmg + (18.6% AP) dmg + 630 + 10% AP
(48.9% AP) dmg – 1510 dmg = 630 + 10% AP
38.9% AP = 2140
AP = 5497
Untill you reach 4210 with a 1.6 speed weapon or 5497 AP with a 2.6 speed weapon, Devastate wins in threat.
With a slow weapon and a gear set with relatively low block value, Devastate pretty much beats all other GCD abilities TPS-wise. Shield Slam lies close enough to exceed that if you have some extra block value, e.g. from Glyph of Blocking.
Concerning efficiency you will want to keep using Revenge on the cooldown and use up S&B procs whenever you can.
Heroic Strike + Deep Wounds effects: next post
Last edited by Airowird; 09-14-2009 at 04:39 AM. Reason: I am legend .... ary moron >_<
now try a 2.6-2.8 speed weapon assuming were wearing t9 content gear and have 20 extra defense and can spare the defensive stats on their weapon
Heroic Strike = Weapon swing + 495 dmg + 259 threat
If you consider Incite, the ADDED threat from Heroic Strike will be
HS_Added = Weapon swing + 495 dmg + 259 threat – CL * Weapon swing
Weapon swing is ofcourse base weapon damage + AP scaling.
HS_Added = weapon dmg + AP dmg + 495 dmg + 259 threat – CL * (Weapon dmg + AP dmg)
For a 1.6 speed weapon:
HS_Added(1.6) = 300 dmg + (11.4% AP) dmg + 495 dmg + 259 threat – 0.9 * (300 dmg + (11.4% AP) dmg)
HS_Added(1.6) = 795 dmg + (11.4% AP) dmg + 259 threat – (270 + (10.3% AP) dmg)
HS_Added(1.6) = 525 dmg + (1.1% AP) dmg + 259 threat
HS_Added(1.6) = 784 + 1.1% AP
For a 2.6 speed weapon:
HS_Added(2.6) = 500 dmg + (18.6% AP) dmg + 495 dmg + 259 threat – 0.9 * (500 dmg + (18.6% AP) dmg)
HS_Added(2.6) = 995 dmg + (18.6% AP) dmg + 259 threat – (450 + (16.7% AP) dmg)
HS_Added(2.6) = 545 dmg + (1.9% AP) dmg + 259 threat
HS_Added(2.6) = 804 + 1.9% AP
TPS(1.6) = HS_Added(1.6) / 1.6
TPS(1.6) = (784 + 1.1% AP) / 1.6
TPS(1.6) = 490 + 0.7% APTPS(2.6) = HS_Added(2.6) / 2.6
TPS(2.6) = (804 + 1.9% AP) / 2.6
TPS(2.6) = 309 + 0.7% AP
Note that both 0.7% AP scaling are identical, as well as being 1/1.4. This is the 10% dmg loss from not having Incite on white swings, which is the only scaling Heroic Strike has.
Comparing total fast weapon TPS to slow weapon:
To know how much TPS you get, simply take the average amount you use an ability, times it's average threat and add everything up. Again I will be making some base assumptions here:
- You Heroic Strike 100% of the time.
- 10% of your GCD is wasted on refreshing Demo Shout and Thunder clap.
- Rage is not an issue
- A fast weapon rotation consists of Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate (priority in that order)
- A slow weapon 'rotation' consists of Devastate mashing.Slow weapon TPS:
TPS(2.6) = 0.9 * Devastate(2.6) TPS + HS(2.6) TPS
TPS(2.6) = 0.9 * Devastate(2.6) / GCD + 309 + 0.7% AP
TPS(2.6) = 0.9 * (2140 + 28.6% AP) / 1.5 + 309 + 0.7% AP
TPS(2.6) = 1593 + 17.86% AP (17.86% = 250/14)Fast weapon TPS:
TPS(1.6) = 0.9 * (rotation TPS) + HS(1.6) TPS
To know the weights of the GCD abilities, we'll need to calculate the average cycle length etc.3sec: SS – S&B proc = 30% chance
4.5sec: SS – X – S&B proc = 70% * 30% = 21% chance
6sec: SS – X – X – X/S&B = 100% - all above = 49% chance
The chance you can Revenge somwhere in any of the above cycles is:
You can build up a tree with all possible Revenge - # of GCDs – SS – rest of cycle combinations and see for yourself.
This means that the average of Devastates in these cycles are:
3sec: .67 Dev
4.5sec: 1.33 Dev
6sec: 2 Dev
The above 2 can be smplified into: Out of every 3 non-SS attacks, one is Revenge.
Average time between SS = 4.785 seconds
Time left for Devastate and Revenge: 3.285
Average amount of GCDs left: 2.19
Average amount of Revenges per SS: 0.73
Average amount of Devastates per SS: 1.46rotation TPS = (SS + 0.73 * Revenge + 1.46 * Devastate) / 4.785
rTPS = ((1886.5 + 1.1 * block) + 0.73 * (1865 + 22.4% AP ) + 1.46 * (1940 + 21.4% AP)) / 4.785
rTPS = ( 1886.5 + 1.1 * block + 1361 + 16.3% AP + 2832 + 31.3% AP) / 4.785
rTPS = ( 6079.5 + 1.1 * block + 47.6% AP) / 4.785
rTPS = 1270 + 9.95% AP + block / 4.35Adding this to the formula we started with:
TPS(1.6) = 0.9 * (1270 + 9.95% AP + block / 4.35) + HS(1.6) TPS
TPS(1.6) = 1143 + 8.95% AP % + 20.7% block + 490 + 0.7% AP
TPS(1.6) = 1633 + 9.65% AP + 20.7% block
Comparing TPS from both weapons:
TPS(2.6) = TPS(1.6)
1593 + 17.86% AP = 1633 + 9.65% AP + 20.7% block
8.11% AP = 40 + 20.7% block
AP = 493 + 2.55 * block
If your AP is above 493 + 2.55 * your block value, you are better off using a slow(2.6 speed) weapon.
At 1000 block value, this is 3043 AP
At 1375 block value, this is 3999 AP
At 1768 block value, this is 4999 AP
At 2160 block value, this is 6001 AP
At 2400 block value, this is 6613 AP
At 2760 block value, this is 7531 APAll of this excludes Deep Wounds. Below is weird wall of math explaining the benefit of slow weapons on DW.
(read: too tired to find out why it looks so weird)
There are only 2 things that matter with Deep Wounds: Weapon Damage and amount of crits (in a certain period of time).
DW DPS = 48% * Weapon Damage(+AP) * #crits / second
The easiest way to calculate #crits for a certain crit rate C is the frequency of each ability multiplied by it's actual crit rate (= C + talents). For GCD abilities this is easy, for Heroic Strike we need to account Haste. In your average raid setup, you should have a WF-buff (20%) and a minor haste aura (3%). Adding parry hastes is a LOT more difficult, but rough estimate would be boss swing timer / weapon swing * 40% (parry swing reduction) * 60% (for the 20% minimum cap). Ofcourse average weapon swing timer is dependant on this parry haste, so quadratic equations with several unknown varials need to be calculated and that's all boring stuff. Bottom line is with a 20% parry chance and 2.5s boss swing timer, you get about 11% haste on a fast weapon and 17% on a slow weapon.
(Actual weapon speed will be 1.16435 and 1.79444 for resp. a fast and slow weapon. Just so you know)
For 2.6 speed weapon:
#crits / second = Devastate crits/second + HS crits/second#crits / second = Dev_crit * Dev_freq + HS crit * HS freq
#crits / second = (C + 15%) * 1/1.5 + (C + 15%) * 1/1.79444
#crits / second = C/1.5 + 10% + C/1.79444 + 15%/1.79444
#crits / second = (1.5 + 1.79444)/(1.5 * 1.79444) * C + 0.1836
#crits / second = 1.22 * C + 0.1836
For 1.6 speed weapon:
Due to lack of Revenge crit talent, weighted equations apply again.
#crits / second = Shield Slam crits / 4.785s + 0.73 * Revenge crits / 4.785 + 1.46 * Devastate crits / 4.785s + HS crits/second
#crits / second = ((C + 15%)* 1/1.5) / 4.785s + 0.73 * (C * 1/1.5) / 4.785 + 1.46 * ((C + 15%) * 1/1.5) / 4.785s + (C + 15%) * 1/1.16435s
#crits / second = (1 + 0.73 + 1.46) * C / 7.1775 + (1 + 1.46) * 15% / 7.1775 + C/1.16435 + 15%/1.16435
#crits / second = 4/9 * C + 0.0514 + C/1.16435 + 0.1288
#crits / second = 1.303 * C + 0.1802
At 10% base crit rate the result would be:
DW DPS(2.6) = 48% * weapon damage * 0.3056 crits / second
DW DPS(2.6) = 14.67% * weapon damage
At 3000 AP, this is 155 DPS
At 4000 AP, this is 182 DPS
DW DPS(1.6) = 48% * weapon damage * 0.3105 crits / second
DW DPS(1.6) = 14.9% * weapon damage
At 3000 AP, this is 96 DPS
At 4000 AP, this is 113 DPS
Add another 60-70 DPS to slow weapons for Deep Wounds (yay!)
Also note that regardless of crit rate, a slow weapon favors DW more due to it's higher damage per proc.
Last edited by Airowird; 09-11-2009 at 03:14 PM. Reason: nana nana nana nana Mathman!!
I'd like to see what you come up with the 1-2k range of block value (personally I'm at about 1100 in my set).
I'm rocking a pretty good excess of defense and I'm at a point where I might consider swapping to a slower wpn to see what kind of TPS boost I can get out of it.
Awaiting a TOC 2.6 wep to drop myself, just need to play the waiting game to see what the tps is like compared to my run of the mill tank based wep.
well its just that i downgraded from sorthalis to a Malice that happened to drop yesterday and saw immediate results in my dps and tps by fairly large amounts and now im curious to see the math behind it.
no world of logs report yet but i got a 4-600 dps increase just from switching and prioritizing devastate a little more over thunderclap
I've done all the weapon speed stuff in my second post and I have to say, I'm impressed by the increase in both DPS and simplicity when using a slow weapon. Guess I'll have to start hunting for some DPS axes for my Orc
My only dissappointment is that this has become yet another "speed > stats" issue I have played with for years on my Enhancement Shaman. I definately see normalization coming here soon, or tank weapons as they are will be the new Holy plate.
Last edited by Airowird; 09-06-2009 at 12:56 PM. Reason: slelping
The World of Warcraft Armory
I picked up a Vulmir last week that I have been using for threat sensitive bosses. I will say that I notice a decent jump in my DPS/TPS.
I don't have any real numbers at the moment. I'll try to use Vulmir an entire raid night (possibly today, we'll be working on Heroic 25 Twins) so you can have some additional numbers to look at. I'll keep this post updated with links to my meters (we upload to WMO).
I know I'm probably late posting this, but here is our most recent WMO log. We did Regular 25 TOC, I used Vulmir for pretty much every boss but Anub'Arak. There are also a ton of other logs for various fights.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay
Last edited by kroxix; 09-23-2009 at 07:25 AM.
Thanks for the extra insight and readable math guys!
In therms of low rage scenario's this seems fine. I'd like to see the dps lost from using heroic strike about 40 ish percent less before I'll cheer though.
My lack of proper signature actually is a proud minimalistic stand
I wouldn't be surprised if very soon new builds for slow DPS weapons will surface. If SS isn't our bread and butter TPS generator anymore then skipping Critical Block in favor of Puncture or even some +damage talents in Arms and Fury or a couple of shouts.
The "machine gun revenge" Unrelenting Assault build also begins to look less attractive.
And since +stam and +armor have become the rulers in the warrior tank world I guess that we can shuffle out some avoid equip pieces for +ap. Even I have come to a point where each avoid pieces becomes less and less valuable.
I wonder if this is intentional? I somehow smell a nerf inc for the IC content patch...
Last edited by Mačl; 09-08-2009 at 12:59 AM.
I also seem to have forgotten improved Revenge with that one, yay for more Edits!!
Editted the correct calculation in now.
Wow, I don't know how I made such errors in the Revenge calculation before.
Even with Imp. Revenge and an average 15% gain on Devastate from crit (deviates depending on Impale & actual crit already, I know), The turning point seems to be negative!! This would make Devastate with a slow weapon THE best TPS move.
Last edited by Airowird; 09-08-2009 at 01:18 AM.
This post confuses me on a whole lot of levels, first of you say:
Which doesn't make sence, you haven't mentioned weapon speed at this point, however you need a 2.24 speed weapon to get 16% ap scaling out of your weapon. It's 11.43% on a 1.6 second weapon, so the 21% ap makes no sense. The only way it could make sense is with glyph of devastate (of which there is no mention), however glyph of devastate also doubles up the innate +315(*) threat portion- so it still makes no sense.Glyphed Devastate: Weapon dmg (see bottom) + 1010 + 5% AP + Sunder threat
Rewritten: ~1310 base dmg + ~21% of AP + 345 threat
You can not say this without factoring in loss of heroic strikes. PS. It was already calculated here:In an infinite rage MT'ing position, your best threat now comes from getting a slow DPS weapon, use a Devastate + HS macro and your only choice now becomes using SS on the cooldown or just for procs.
The math done in that thread does need to be modified in order match different TPS rotations (ie; excluding SS/rev), but to say that a slow weapon wins out without factoring in heroic strike is not the way to go.
Also there is no deepwounds waste, but you'll see why in the thread I linked.Deep Wounds ticks, both damage and amount (slower weapon = less refresh waste)
Last edited by Warloco; 09-08-2009 at 06:36 AM.
you do not get sunder threat from using devastate, you get the damage, the innate %ap based threat. that's all. Unless something changed recently, but sunder has never been "part of the threat" of devastate. and may be skewing your numbers.
Well, yes, I understand that things "changed" so to speak in the threat values, but what I read in your quote was that he was factoring in "sunder" threat, which doesn't sound right to me since the sunder effect caused from devastate has never generated the threat a sunder armory normally would generate.
Hrmmm... I might do some threat calculations soon if my I get enough studying out of the way. I'm doing alot of 5 mans at the moment and have this overwhelming obsession with knowing the math behind every button I push.
Don't worry your not alone though. A lot of this post doesn't sound right to me either. Could just be the wording, but I don't have the motivation to try and figure it out atm.
I'm very wary of devastate threat as I was one of the original people who tried to work out the threat mechanics of it when sunder was first added to it's ability (and thus making it useful). I foolishly published what I thought was accurate and tested findings only to realize I had made some mathematical mistakes and looked like a dork for both preaching amazing things as well as not double checking my math. Luckily Satrina rectify the damage I had caused with his mathcraft/testing.
Thank you for the input guys, I'll see if I can't clarify a lot of the things you been wondering about tomorrow.
Edit: Redid the math and tried to make a bit more structure in the posts. Also added more accurate HS calculations, but all of this is still pretty rough numbers, as I haven't had time (yet) to update and add lay-out to my old spreadsheet.
If I have time later this week I'll throw in a bit of Deep Wounds numbers as well, but I'll let this stuff sink in for today
Last edited by Airowird; 09-09-2009 at 04:39 AM.