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Thread: Why my DK sucks as Tank, pls help me to find my problem

  1. #1

    Why my DK sucks as Tank, pls help me to find my problem

    Hi guys, it's my first post, i find a lot of helps in this forum i lurked from long time, and it help me. But now i cant find my problem. This is my story:
    I play with DK 80lvl (dual spec tank/dps) before 3.2 patch i tank without problem with unholy tree, after 3.2 bang! All change! I change from unholy to frost. I have also increase my gear level but MY REAL problem is that i cant tank!!! And i dont know why?
    Look my pg (in armor sometime is set as dps...):
    wow armory link
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    Wow Heroes link
    WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings


    My main problem is that i lost aggro too easily. I'm little bit noob i know that but i not find where is my error.
    First question: Weapons and Def Rating.
    Looking this screenshot:
    with dual wield i have 533 in defence but 655 in def rating:



    with two hand weapons runeforged i have 541 defence and 573 in def rating. (540 is cap for hc right?)

    so i'm confused coz anyone tellme i have to do tank with dual wield where def rating is hight others tell me inverse... is better with one hand or with dual weild?
    Axe i have (dropped in ToC) is not for tank dueal weild weapons is for tank.

    Second Question:
    Healers tell me that my heal reduce too quickly and i have 29k of hp and 24k of armor.


    3rd Question:
    Anyone tell me that my problem is also rotation this is my basic rotation:

    What do U mean about?


    I think my gear to tank in hc is fine, but i wrong something to lost too easily aggro and threat on mob. Please if U have any suggestions (change talent or need this gear...or other) help me.
    Thanks Guys

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    My thoughts:

    Don't dual-wield as a tank, you sacrifice too much getting your +hit +expertise and defense at acceptable levels.

    Never gem for parry, it has a steep diminishing returns curve. For avoidance go dodge.

    Where possible always gem x+stam or pure stamina, never a pure avoidance/defense gem.

    Your expertise is *really* low, swap some gems around and get it up closer to 26.

    Enchant your gear, you're missing back, shoulders, and gloves.

    You have two gathering professions, personally I'd drop herbalism and powerlevel JC, you get some amazing +stam gems and it has great synergy with mining.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    also jsut looking at you stats screenshot when dw, expertise needs to be 26 for each weapon.

  4. #4
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    Most important thing is to macro runestrike to all your moves
    /cast runestrike
    /cast icy touch

    (judging from the overlays on buttons I'd assume those are macros)

    I will even use a dodge trinket after RP gets above 50% on boss pull just to be able to runestrike as much as possible. And don't forget to use AMS to refill RP even if you don't need the magic mitigation.

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Gems: Change +Parry (In your Bolstered Legplates) to + Strength for better threat or +dodge.
    Gear: Enchant what isn't, if that's an available option. (I myself haven't unlocked the Sons of Hodir faction, so shoulders don't bug me, but cloak (Titanweave or the agility enchant!!) and gloves (Armsman enchant) are an absolute must.)
    Talents: With your expertise nonexistent, you're gonna get parry-wasted dual-wielding. Thus, take the three points from Threat of Thassarian, and the three from Nerves of Cold Steel, and move those into Morbidity (3/3 Unholy) and finish off Scent of Blood, as well as two handed weapon specialization. Also, if you could find a way to pick up Deathchill, it's a MASSIVE threat front-loader. Mobs hate being critted from the jump.
    Rotation: Tanking as Frost myself, I prefer a single-disease rotation. This lowers the damage on Obliterate, and thus the threat as well, but makes things almost easy enough to manage aggro for my 9 year old son to tank Naxx 10. As you're running a double disease rotation, everything looks to be in order. I'd upgrade to the Sigil of Avoidance, which causes Rune Strike (HUGE THREAT BOOST) to give you an additional 136 dodge rating, and thus bigger threat via more rune strikes. Spam rune strike, and use your defensive cooldowns (UBA going in, IBF as soon as it's available) and judging by your rotation, you should do ok.
    ...Thoughts of a philosophical Death Knight...
    If death is the inevitable end of life, is life the inevitable end of undeath?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    Gems: Change +Parry (In your Bolstered Legplates) to + Strength for better threat or +dodge.
    Gear: Enchant what isn't, if that's an available option. (I myself haven't unlocked the Sons of Hodir faction, so shoulders don't bug me, but cloak (Titanweave or the agility enchant!!) and gloves (Armsman enchant) are an absolute must.)
    Talents: With your expertise nonexistent, you're gonna get parry-wasted dual-wielding. Thus, take the three points from Threat of Thassarian, and the three from Nerves of Cold Steel, and move those into Morbidity (3/3 Unholy) and finish off Scent of Blood, as well as two handed weapon specialization. Also, if you could find a way to pick up Deathchill, it's a MASSIVE threat front-loader. Mobs hate being critted from the jump.
    Rotation: Tanking as Frost myself, I prefer a single-disease rotation. This lowers the damage on Obliterate, and thus the threat as well, but makes things almost easy enough to manage aggro for my 9 year old son to tank Naxx 10. As you're running a double disease rotation, everything looks to be in order. I'd upgrade to the Sigil of Avoidance, which causes Rune Strike (HUGE THREAT BOOST) to give you an additional 136 dodge rating, and thus bigger threat via more rune strikes. Spam rune strike, and use your defensive cooldowns (UBA going in, IBF as soon as it's available) and judging by your rotation, you should do ok.
    Nice post man!
    look now my talent build, stat, and gear (after your advice):
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    what do u think about?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    381
    This might be silly but if you have dual spec are you making sure you turn on frost presence after you switch spec? I have had some accidents (not proud to admit it) where I had been trying to tank without a presence active since the spec switch (or if it just my macro for it) removes any presence which is active.
    Just saying this since I as a fellow frost tank almost never ever have any aggro problems. Sure it has to do with you you are running with but unless they are well over your level in gear it shouldnt be a big issue.

  8. #8
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    Definitely go with a 2H. 1H means you need far more non-tank stats to sustain threat (namely Hit and Expertise) and just give yourself additional chances at getting parry-gibbed.

    In order to get around being critted, you need to be at 540 Defense Skill (689 Defense Rating) or higher. You may show as 540 but below 689 Rating if you use Stoneskin Gargoyle, as it directly adds to skill and not rating, but 540 is the magic number for raids (for heroics, it's only 535).



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hades View Post
    Gems: Change +Parry (In your Bolstered Legplates) to + Strength for better threat or +dodge.
    Gear: Enchant what isn't, if that's an available option. (I myself haven't unlocked the Sons of Hodir faction, so shoulders don't bug me, but cloak (Titanweave or the agility enchant!!) and gloves (Armsman enchant) are an absolute must.)
    Talents: With your expertise nonexistent, you're gonna get parry-wasted dual-wielding. Thus, take the three points from Threat of Thassarian, and the three from Nerves of Cold Steel, and move those into Morbidity (3/3 Unholy) and finish off Scent of Blood, as well as two handed weapon specialization. Also, if you could find a way to pick up Deathchill, it's a MASSIVE threat front-loader. Mobs hate being critted from the jump.
    Rotation: Tanking as Frost myself, I prefer a single-disease rotation. This lowers the damage on Obliterate, and thus the threat as well, but makes things almost easy enough to manage aggro for my 9 year old son to tank Naxx 10. As you're running a double disease rotation, everything looks to be in order. I'd upgrade to the Sigil of Avoidance, which causes Rune Strike (HUGE THREAT BOOST) to give you an additional 136 dodge rating, and thus bigger threat via more rune strikes. Spam rune strike, and use your defensive cooldowns (UBA going in, IBF as soon as it's available) and judging by your rotation, you should do ok.
    Strength gems in any sort of tanking gear is always bad advice.
    The agility enchant lost it's appeal last patch, Defense or Titanweave is the way to go.
    Armsman has almost no practical use as a tank compared to hit, expertise, or stamina.
    Parry-haste being a huge issue dual-wielding while compared to 2-handed tanking is an absolute myth.
    Morbidity is an absolute waste of a talent as frost, you don't use DC's or DnD.
    Deathchill is an average opener talent for AoE threat with Howling Blast, for overall TPS it is one of the weakest talents available.
    Sigil of Avoidance would increase in a threat gain of around .2-.4%% being generous. The sigil that increases Frost Strike damage would be a better choice if threat is the problem.


    HOWEVER - Two handed tanking builds are easier when you start off as a DK. Stoneskin Gargoyle is great, 2-handed tanking rots are easier.

    The nice simple build for tanking 5 man heroics is - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft . Hungering cold gives you a nice self CC, and Glyph of Howling blast makes a single disease rotation extremely easy. Good luck, and check out other posts for gear lists!

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    I know a lot of people have posted good information, but I am going to *actually* answer your questions directly. The information so far has been good, but I think you need to understand WHY you are having problems, not simply fix the problem, or you will run into the same problems as you go into the next round of encounters.

    Quote Originally Posted by steveaustin1974 View Post
    Hi guys, it's my first post, i find a lot of helps in this forum i lurked from long time, and it help me. But now i cant find my problem. This is my story:
    I play with DK 80lvl (dual spec tank/dps) before 3.2 patch i tank without problem with unholy tree, after 3.2 bang! All change! I change from unholy to frost. I have also increase my gear level but MY REAL problem is that i cant tank!!! And i dont know why?
    Look my pg (in armor sometime is set as dps...):
    wow armory link
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    Wow Heroes link
    WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings
    With 3.2, DKs received a nerf. Troubles with DKs in general mean you need to adjust to game changes. Also, you may need to adjust to the new rotation, while your rotation (posted further down on your post) appears to be OK, it may not be as fluid because it is still new. Hang in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by steveaustin1974 View Post
    My main problem is that i lost aggro too easily. I'm little bit noob i know that but i not find where is my error.
    First question: Weapons and Def Rating.
    Looking this screenshot:
    with dual wield i have 533 in defence but 655 in def rating:



    with two hand weapons runeforged i have 541 defence and 573 in def rating. (540 is cap for hc right?)

    so i'm confused coz anyone tellme i have to do tank with dual wield where def rating is hight others tell me inverse... is better with one hand or with dual weild?
    Axe i have (dropped in ToC) is not for tank dueal weild weapons is for tank.
    Defense for DKs is derived from 3 sources:
    1) Every character has a base defense skill, 5 points for every level. Therefore, sitting naked in Goldshire/Cross-roads/etc., you can have a maximum of 400 defense skill at level 80. The only way to improve this (if you aren't already there) is to get hit during combat, your character will "Learn" defense skill on the fly. You can verify you are at 400 in your skills tab.
    2) When using 2h weapons only, DKs have the option to enchant it with stoneskill gargoyle runeforge, which adds 25 Defense SKILL and a stamina bonus. Please note the Defense SKILL.
    3) Defense from items give Defense RATING. At level 80, about 4.92 defense rating makes 1 defense SKILL. Let's look at your 2 scenarios
    a) while dual wielding, you get 655 rating. 655 rating divided by 4.92 rating/defense skill = 133 Skill (The game mentions this in your picture). Therefore, your total defense is 400 base skill + 133 defense skill from items = 533. You need to have 540 defense rating for raids. (you can do 535 for heroics, but you should be able to get to 540)
    b)while using your 2h weapon, you have less defense rating, 573 defense rating, which works out to 116 defense skill (less than dual wielding). However, you do have the Stoneskill Runeforge, which gives you an extra 25 defense SKILL (but its not listed in your defense rating tooltip, as it is not part of defense rating). Therefore your defense is 400 base skill + 116 defense from items + 25 from runeforge = 541.

    Incidentally, you will be very hard pressed to beat tanking with 2h weapon with stoneskill runeforge.


    Quote Originally Posted by steveaustin1974 View Post
    Second Question:
    Healers tell me that my heal reduce too quickly and i have 29k of hp and 24k of armor.
    Typical symptom of attempting content beyond your gear and skill. Even if you fix gear, you need to learn how to survive better. There's been a lot of talk of gear, but you need to learn to help healers. Things include:
    1) Knowing the fights. If you know the fight, you know when something bad is about to happen, and you use your tanking cooldowns at that time (icebound fortitude, Anti-magic Shell, unbreakable armor, etc.). If you are not using these regularly, even with appropriate gear you can and will fail. These things are not there to make your bar look pretty or to be saved for a blue moon. Use it as frequently as the fight permits.
    2) proper gemming and enchanting. After hitting 540 defense, for survival, your best bet (for now) is to stack as much stamina as possible. It doesn't help reduce damage taken, but it does mean you are more likely to survive a hit (and maybe even another one) before the healers can land a heal on you. You should be aiming for mid 30k hitpoint.
    3) Balancing survival and threat. If you lose threat, the mobs will eat your healer, and the game is over. If you don't have enough survival stats, the mobs eat you, then the rest of the raid, game over. You need to build both simultaneously.

    Quote Originally Posted by steveaustin1974 View Post
    3rd Question:
    Anyone tell me that my problem is also rotation this is my basic rotation:

    What do U mean about?

    I think my gear to tank in hc is fine, but i wrong something to lost too easily aggro and threat on mob. Please if U have any suggestions (change talent or need this gear...or other) help me.
    Thanks Guys
    If you are tanking multiple mobs, you want to move your Howling Blast (HB) up in your rotation. If you are tanking single mobs (like bosses), skip Death and Decay and HB altogether. So, using your nice big red numbers where possible, try the following rotations

    for many mobs,
    1 -> 5 (HB) ->Blood Boil (I don't see it on your bar)-> 5(HB) -> 5(HB)-> etc.
    For this to work, you *must* glyph for howling blast. Replace Icy Touch Glyph with Howling Blast. The key thing is that Death and Decay is used only once, at the beginning, and throughout the fight your area of effect is Howling Blast and maybe Blood Boil.

    For Single Mobs
    2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 (BS) -> 5 (BS)-> Frost Strike -> 5 (BS)-> 5 (BS)-> 5 (BS)-> etc.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1

    Everone has miss the obvious

    Your hit rating is the first and formost problem. It is arguable that you cap hit or def first but both of thes are absolute musts. Your hit rating is at 160 i believe it was you must have 265 to be capped. If you are missing then you are not generating threat. Get that hit rating up to 265 and you will be a whole lot better off. To prove this before you gem up for it, go get the food and pots that give hit. You will get i think it is 90 hit from them. Go tank something and i guarentee you will have much better results... o and blood tanking FTW!!!!

  12. #12

    Much much better

    Guys ty all for your advice. Really thanks!
    i do that:
    1) change my spec , now i have FROST 13 / 48 / 10 and 2h weapon
    2) i have pick shoulder for t8 (much stamina, def and armor)
    3) add more gem/ench for hit rating and expertise ...and much threat.

    now is much better. Yesterday i done ToC Hc with no problem!

    look now:
    WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings

    http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ion&n=Prodigio





    thanks a lot guys!!! )))

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