Glyph of Indomitability (50 Emblems of Triumph)

[Lenox]

Glyph of Indomitability

I'm thinking of getting this, because it's the only triumph item that would fit nicely with my current stat allocation. I'm thinking of having it replace my Defender's Code. I'm just not sure how to feel about this trinket as a warrior tank.

Health (Self-Buffed): 35,881
Armor: 26,015 (63.07% damage reduction)
Shield Block Chance: 24.93% (151 rating)
Shield Block Value: 1738
Current Dodge:27.27%
Current Parry: 18.88
Current Expertise: 6.5% (26)
Current Hit:6.22% (204 rating) I use Snapper Extreme to get my hit nearer to the cap in raids.

WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings

And yes, I gemmed for parry. I actually get more avoidance from it currently point-for-point than dodge rating.

TLDR: Let's have an intelligent discussion about this trinket for warrior tanking of current 25-man progression content, and NOT talk about how I should get other stuff. Feedback such as "druid trinket" or "good trinket for all tanks" are examples of helpful responses.

[Omok]

Although, it is an extremely nice trinket for effective health, I don't know how much use it will be for progression content at the moment. Looking at damage that you take in Coliseum, a lot of it is magic damage which will not be affected by this trinket. You will probably be better off getting a trinket with a bunch of stamina on it. I would still buy the Glyph and use it for fights with more physical damage than magic damage.

[Wars]

Overall if you are using Defender's Code, GoI is the next step up in your stat allocation. If you like the way you are tanking and your healers are used to the way that you take damage, keep it that way. If people can predict more-often-than-not what is going to happen(aka healers knowing how often they have to heal you) you're going to be more successful than if they're out there just spamming away.

Changing one trinket from EH/Avoidance to Threat/EH or some such switch will not drastically change this and probably won't make a noticable difference.

As you said for your stat allocation it is an upgrade, I say that's perfect for you and to keep it the way you are going. That amount of passive armor(even with armor diminishing returns its a good badass chunk of physical EH), and the clicky is another good button to hit if someone's got a soft enrage in the future or there is a moment where you need the raid to move and the healers might be a bit preoccupied for a second or two.

[Halgreg]

Dang, and here I was intrigued that a glyph may cost triumph emblems. That must be some glyph! Silly Blizzard and their choice of item naming.

[Muffin Man]

It's funny. I love devotion aura but I don't like this trinket (or armor trinkets in general, although the on-use here is really good).

I've also raided without priests and didn't feel concerned over no fort, but I always wear two stamina trinkets when raiding.

I don't know why I feel this way about my buffs and trinkets... but I wouldn't spend 50 emblems on this, I just feel the opportunity cost is too high and I have a bias against armor trinkets anyways.

[krc]

The glyph of Indomitability is a solid upgrade to defenders code better in both EH and avoidance.
So yes it would go well with one set, an EH set or an avoidance. In my opinion it shouldn't be one of the first trinkets you should spend your triumph badges on because it costs 50 and there are better options out there.

[Lenox]

Dang, and here I was intrigued that a glyph may cost triumph emblems. That must be some glyph! Silly Blizzard and their choice of item naming.

Lol!

It's funny. I love devotion aura but I don't like this trinket (or armor trinkets in general, although the on-use here is really good).

I've also raided without priests and didn't feel concerned over no fort, but I always wear two stamina trinkets when raiding.

I don't know why I feel this way about my buffs and trinkets... but I wouldn't spend 50 emblems on this, I just feel the opportunity cost is too high and I have a bias against armor trinkets anyways.

I think the reason you feel this way is because PUGs and a large part of the uneducated (about tanking) community put so much emphasis on HP (because it's one of the only things you can see) rather than overall balanced tanking stats. I try to not worry so much about what the uneducated part of the community holds important. I do however care what my healers think and what my dps thinks, and to some degree the tanks I'm working with. I consistently have an open dialogue with my healers regarding my survivability and ease of healing, just as I do with my dps in regards to my threat levels.

Overall if you are using Defender's Code, GoI is the next step up in your stat allocation. If you like the way you are tanking and your healers are used to the way that you take damage, keep it that way. If people can predict more-often-than-not what is going to happen(aka healers knowing how often they have to heal you) you're going to be more successful than if they're out there just spamming away.

Changing one trinket from EH/Avoidance to Threat/EH or some such switch will not drastically change this and probably won't make a noticable difference.

As you said for your stat allocation it is an upgrade, I say that's perfect for you and to keep it the way you are going. That amount of passive armor(even with armor diminishing returns its a good badass chunk of physical EH), and the clicky is another good button to hit if someone's got a soft enrage in the future or there is a moment where you need the raid to move and the healers might be a bit preoccupied for a second or two.

Amazingly helpful response. Thank you.

Although, it is an extremely nice trinket for effective health, I don't know how much use it will be for progression content at the moment. Looking at damage that you take in Coliseum, a lot of it is magic damage which will not be affected by this trinket. You will probably be better off getting a trinket with a bunch of stamina on it. I would still buy the Glyph and use it for fights with more physical damage than magic damage.

I can't think of a fight where unavoidable magic damage can be a raid-wiping nuisance to tank healing. It has been my experience that magic damage in a raid encounter isn't something that really wipes raids due to it being bursty. Usually when it does wipe raids it's due to the "standing in the fire" scenario. In those scenarios, being smarter > gearing for stamina. I do however see how it can reduce the marging for error, but playing better negates that. Incomimg melee damage however, can wipe raids and can be a nuissance on tank healing.

Omok, can you give me a scenario or encounter where unavoidable magic damage poses a big enough threat, whereas avoiding it by being a smart player is not enough, and gearing for stamina instead of mitigation would not work?

[Omok]

Omok, can you give me a scenario or encounter where unavoidable magic damage poses a big enough threat, whereas avoiding it by being a smart player is not enough, and gearing for stamina instead of mitigation would not work?

I don't think it's a matter of magic damage posing any more of a threat than physical damage, they are probably on even footing in most cases. But some examples are The Twin Jormungars with the bulk of their damage being fire and nature. Icehowl doing his ice breath, Lord Jaraxxus doing a lot of shadow and fire damage. Twin Valkyrs doing shadow and holy damage. None of these are instant gib mechanics, but armor is not of much use on this type of damage. In these cases, health would be advantageous over armor. The only encounter in the Coliseum that has no magic damage whatsoever would be Gormok the Impaler, who is only one phase of a boss encounter.

Think of it this way. If Jaraxxus does 50% physical damage, and 50% magic damage to the main tank, then armor is totally ineffective on half of the damage he is doing. Whereas health would be 100% effective in keeping you alive against the damage he is doing. If you have to make a choice on where to spend your itemization on an encounter with that much magic damage, I think it is a smarter choice leaning towards health. On a fight where there is no magic damage, go for a balanced set up. Although in the end it does not really matter, as you could stay health focused and still be just as survivable. Although you would require more healing to keep you alive.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am a huge effective health advocate, I believe very much in maxing out health and armor to the best of your ability. But some encounters don't warrant you worrying about your armor too much. That's the beauty of multiple sets of gear. Switch it out depending on what you are fighting.

[Lenox]

I don't think it's a matter of magic damage posing any more of a threat than physical damage, they are probably on even footing in most cases. But some examples are The Twin Jormungars with the bulk of their damage being fire and nature. Icehowl doing his ice breath, Lord Jaraxxus doing a lot of shadow and fire damage. Twin Valkyrs doing shadow and holy damage. None of these are instant gib mechanics, but armor is not of much use on this type of damage. In these cases, health would be advantageous over armor. The only encounter in the Coliseum that has no magic damage whatsoever would be Gormok the Impaler, who is only one phase of a boss encounter.

Think of it this way. If Jaraxxus does 50% physical damage, and 50% magic damage to the main tank, then armor is totally ineffective on half of the damage he is doing. Whereas health would be 100% effective in keeping you alive against the damage he is doing. If you have to make a choice on where to spend your itemization on an encounter with that much magic damage, I think it is a smarter choice leaning towards health. On a fight where there is no magic damage, go for a balanced set up. Although in the end it does not really matter, as you could stay health focused and still be just as survivable. Although you would require more healing to keep you alive.

Now, don't get me wrong. I am a huge effective health advocate, I believe very much in maxing out health and armor to the best of your ability. But some encounters don't warrant you worrying about your armor too much. That's the beauty of multiple sets of gear. Switch it out depending on what you are fighting.

True, I thought of those fights. I'll have to look more closely at my parses to see how much of the fights' damage is from magical sources, and for how much they're doing on average.

[tuffmuffin]

True, I thought of those fights. I'll have to look more closely at my parses to see how much of the fights' damage is from magical sources, and for how much they're doing on average.

All you have to do is look how each fight works to get a rough guess. Logs will simply verify the information to give a clearer picture.

Gormok's lethal damage comes from the bleed which armor doesn't mitigate. Fires should never be placed where the tank would get hit by it, and the rest of his damage is his melee. The stationary Jormungar will do the majority of his damage as magic (Fire or Poison), the mobile one will do most of his through Melee, with a portion coming from their sprays or poison clouds. Icehowl will rarely cast his breath on the tank, the vast majority of his damage is physical. At anyrate, the only lethal part (Ferocious Butt + Melee) is physical.

Done properly, the Jaraxxus tank will take virtually all physical damage. Looking at a few logs the past few weeks our tank took over 80% melee damage on Jaraxxus and the next highest source of damage came from Infernals charging to the melee and using their Fel Inferno (~8%)

[krc]

Basically what Omok said just use multiple sets of gear where as you can use a stam trinket for very heavy magic damage, Glyph of Indomititability for heavy physical spike damage and an avoidance trinket for really fast or slow hitting non spike damage boss.

[Pyrea]

I think perhaps bosses where different trinkets are useful are better found in ulduar:

Steelbreaker: Stamina. lots of stamina. Fusion punch hurts, and is magical damage.

Kologarn and to a certain extent Vezax: just about all damage taken by the MT is physical, an armor trinket is useful here.

Freya: (non hardmode at least): not a particularly fast attacker, and she doesnt hit hard anyway, a good time to equip that avoidance trinket, means the healers can look after the raid while freya attempts to hit you.

Switching trinkets is a very easy way to change the way your gear mitigates the incoming hits, whether you decide to soak the damage, reduce the damage, or hope to avoid the damage.

[krc]

Actually Pyrea I would think that Vezax would be an avoidance fight because of the slow swing timer where healers can heal you up in between swings and with avoidance you could save healers mana from not as much overheals.
In my opinion armor is for more or less heavy physical spike damage because EH utilizes consistency to survive randomness, Not a whole lot of physical spike damage in Ulduar because every boss hits for ridiculous amounts. A good example for spike damage would be dragons, cleaves, tailwhips etc.

With the same amount of EH with armor and stamina I would give the slight edge to stamina because of more unmigitable damage in ulduar and ToC not to say armor isn't useful armor is a very good stat in any fight.

[Muffin Man]

I think the reason you feel this way is because PUGs and a large part of the uneducated (about tanking) community put so much emphasis on HP (because it's one of the only things you can see) rather than overall balanced tanking stats. I try to not worry so much about what the uneducated part of the community holds important. I do however care what my healers think and what my dps thinks, and to some degree the tanks I'm working with. I consistently have an open dialogue with my healers regarding my survivability and ease of healing, just as I do with my dps in regards to my threat levels.

Maybe I should qualify this for you. I pug with two block value trinkets and gear from Naxx. It's my full SBV set. So no, I don't really care what pugs think of my stats when I know I can handle the situation.

Stamina is much more reliable than armor, for all the reasons that Omokk has pointed out. I'm aware that armor improves TTL linearly against physical damage. But almost all forms of boss burst are non-physical (exceptions being Vezax's dark surge, Thorim... can't think of much else that's really scary).

Maybe it's also because I pvp a fair amount where the biggest threats to my warrior are casters in which case armor does nothing (not that I use stamina trinkets in pvp).

From my very rough estimates the armor on the Glyph will provide more physical EH than any of the current stamina trinkets (it's close compared to HoI thought). So it's not that I think the Glyph is worthless, it's that physical EH has proven to be a very niche protection so far. On top of that I feel that 50 emblems is much too high a price to pay.