Bridging the gap between reg ToC and H Toc

[Gnurled]

Awesome forum, have learned a lot here. Retroactive thanks for prior knowledge, and preemptive thanks for replies

So I've been tanking maybe a week and a half, two weeks. Been farming reg ToC and have all the tank gear from there. Have my eyes on the gear from H ToC, but three miserably failed attempts have me crying into my beer. I'm going down in the first fight like a clothy.

I'm def capped and in frost presence (unbuffed) have 30K HP, 23.3k armor, 20% dodge and 15% parry.

Each time in HToC I've rolled the rogue (lucky me) and twice got rogue+warrior. So, no cakewalks. But I run thru reg ToC like a hot knife thru butter given reasonably competant DPS and healz.

Am I undergeared? I checked data last time and I'm getting hit HARD with physical damage. For some reason I dont seem to be mitigating anything. Along the lines of:

1188 nature damage from poison
runok attack dodged
viscerii melee hits for 2206
viscerii attack dodged
rurok melee hit for 4422

Later in the fight it shows me some mitigation, but for some reason it's only 140, and exactly 140, on each and every hit:
hunter shoot 5012 physical (140 absorbed)
runok melee 3332 physical (140 absorbed)

EDIT: I just realised the 140 mitigation is essence of gossamer proccing

So, I'm pretty frustrated and tired of wiping groups and thinking that I suck as a tank and I should go pick up Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Any advice appreciated on ToC or my gear or how to get rid of that embarrassing dandruff.

My Toon:
The World of Warcraft Armory

[jimbabwe]

Well as you can see:

The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm geared to amlmost the exact same stats you gave in your post. I've only done this once before, but I'm pretty sure it's very reliant on having a good healer. I was able to do it without using cool downs excessively against warrior/hunter/mage lineup.

When I did it I started off with shieldwall (60% damage reduction 12sec) to give my healer a chance to ease into healing while i was rounding them up. Then I just stunned and shield blocked when I could to reduce damage.

I'd also say good dps is pretty helpful as it will really shorten the time required that you'd have to be tanking all 3 of them.

[Kurtosis]

Don't sweat it, I'm a little better geared and still find that first 3-boss fight to be the hardest phase of any heroic in the game right now, harder than even Iadric/Paletress and the Black Knight.

Every other Heroic is easy-mode, even with fail healer and pugs. I can tank through Loken's Lightning Nova in H HoL, and solo Krystallus in H HoS, but get pounded like a lvl 1 clothie in that first boss fight of H ToC. It's the first H I've done in a long time that requires a good healer. Druids, Pallies, and Discipline priests seem to have the easiest time of it, Holy priest struggled, and haven't run it w/ a resto Shamman yet.

A few thoughts:

1. Do everything you can to survive long enough to knock one out. If you can reduce your incoming dmg from 3 to 2 quickly, it makes a big difference to the outcome. Reduces your overal dmg taken, and the healer's mana use. It's even worth blowing your cd's right up front to survive that inital 3-boss dmg spike.

2. Doing that requires keeping the healer silienced as much as possible. I ran w/ a pug once where nobody silenced the healer, and it took forever and cost our healer almost all his mana just to get one down, hence we wiped soon after.

3. Regarding your spec, you should probably respec for survivability till you get better gear. Here's the Blood spec I use for it, which focuses on buffing self heals and single-target threat as much as possible. As long as dps know to focus fire my current target and not use any AoE themselves, I can keep aggro on me. Only problem is that damn hunter that disengages out of my DnD, and I either have to DG him back or watch him carefully and taunt when necessary if DG is on cd.

4. Try to get your rep up across the board. Most of the rep enchants are BiS and make a difference in your survivability.

5. Might be worth farming old heroics for a few days to pick up Conquerer's Breastplate and Helmet, then back to H ToC after that.

[uglybbtoo]

Do it old school if you are struggling with gearing make careful selection of your classes you take with you.

All of the first 3 bosses are stunable and disarmable so a rogue, dps warrior and ret pally can keep some of the damage down till you have burnt the first one down.

[Meldwyn]

Definitely be picky with your group. This 5man Heroic is not like any other Heroic and is not for newbies to lvl 80. You must have solid heals and very good dps regardless of how good a tank you are (this means that you can't carry anyone through it - i.e., newbie lvl 80 dps hitting for 600+)!

This is on par with Naxx25man and possibly Ulduar 10man imo, so make sure everyone is ready for it. Don't be afraid to ask for dps from your damage dealers and if your potential healer has successfully healed it before.

On a side note, the Hello Kitty Island Adventure, Cat Scratch Fever v2.0 is due to be released next month so make sure you have your pre-order in soon! I know I have mine! Woot!

[Mert]

I believe the healers are interruptable as well as stunnable, so watch for their cast bar (get a mod such as Xperl if you have trouble seeing it quick enough) and burn them down quickly. If you get any ranged (the Mage can be a pain) then Deathgrip them into range and have them silenced if possible - they'll just start hitting you with their staff, it's pretty laughable damage. It also stops the healer getting Sheeped, which has only happened to me once but was pretty scary for a minute.

But as suggested, use your cooldowns proactively to mitiage some of the initial burstiness of the fight. If you're not doing so already, remember that once they're dismounted you can run out of the instance and run back in, allowing the initial pull to be much less chaotic.

With regard to your healer selection, a Disc Priest or Holy Paladin will help you a lot in this phase as you're the only one taking damage but you should bear in mind that they will struggle with the Black Knight's third phase if your group's DPS isn't very high.

Good luck anyway - you'll get there soon I'm sure

[dirt]

Your group makeup is important for sure. Also, prioritizing who to take out first in the group of 3 your facing can help alot. Make sure your marking skull at a minimum and your dps are focus firing to get them down. The shammy I believe can heal the others and the hunter is annoying as well. Don't be afraid to ask CC's in your group to use their skills for temporary relief. Don't stand in the green clouds and use all available stuns you have to keep 1 or more under control.

Looking at your gear, I'd imagine you are having a bit of a struggle. Your going to need a good healer for sure and a fair amount of dps. The fight gets exponentially easier for each one you get down, but weathering the storm w/ all three up is where the challenge comes in. Again, use all you CDs, stuns & CC abilities up front to keep them as locked down as possible. That's going to ensure your best chance of success.

Good luck.

[Gnurled]

Thanks for some very solid advice and replies. Sounds like it can be broken down into thirds:

1/3 my own inexperience tanking
1/3 undergeared
1/3 poor group structure; sub-optimal pug members.

I know that I need to move out of the poison but to be honest there's two issues here. One I have a hard time seeing it with all the other crap going on and two I suck at moving and fighting.

I guess I need to go run BG's for a couple days...if I can hit those coked up 12 years olds on sugar highs, it will probably help my tank mobility. *shudder* I hate BG's.

Well good to know it's not all my skills, and I guess I'll give it a rest until I get my gear and abilities improved a bit.

Can any of you give a rough guide as to what kinds of stats I should aim for to have a reasonable chance at surviving upon return?

[Petninja]

It's a hard case to make that you're undergeared for it. I think you're more likely just barely geared for it. It's a tough heroic though, and making sure your group members are pulling their own weight is important. A lot of healers get lazy these days in heroics, and aren't prepared for the damage this boss dishes out. Everyone should blow their CDs on the first target. Once he's down the adrenaline is pumping and the incoming damage is reduced and you've got more of a coast. It really is the hardest fight and if you know a decent Enh shaman or something have him pop heroism :P.

On a side note, the Hello Kitty Island Adventure, Cat Scratch Fever v2.0 is due to be released next month so make sure you have your pre-order in soon! I know I have mine! Woot!

ROFL! XD

[Meldwyn]

Gnurled,

Two things: have you looked at keybinding, mouse turning, and effective strafing on the forums here? I would highly recommend you think about changing how you operate your abilities and navigate the keyboard simultaneously. You may find that you are able to fight and move at the same time much easier when you remap your keys.

Second, two days in bg's probably won't make you a star at moving and fighting at the same time, but it probably will get you frustrated. Don't PvP to learn tanking... been there and done that and it didn't work out so well for me (got to know a lot of spirit healers on a first name basis though).

I would suggest you just keep running other Heroic and regular instance dungeons in Northrend to practice your skills.

Stats:
This isn't scientific, but it does come from experience... for a tank I would try to be close to 28K+ health with the standard 540+ Def, 19% Dodge, 18% Parry, etc... DPS should be 2.5K or higher and your healer needs to be well geared and preferably good at aoe heals (i.e., druid, priest) unless they are really good, then class won't matter as much. Just make sure they have been there before.

One last thing... once you do complete it, get to know the PUG members well and invite them back for additional rounds when you can, knowing you are able to complete it effectively together!

Good luck. Won't be long before you are reaping the rewards from H ToC!

[Ion]

Eh, your gear is fine. I know nothing about DK specs so I will leave that to the others, but I do agree that you can't just randomly pick up scrubs for H ToC. Bad DPS can wipe you almost as easily as a bad tank/bad healer can in other heroics...you really need to have an actually competent crew to do the instance.

However, the hunter won't attack you with "shoot" unless it's out of melee range. You definitely shouldn't let it get that far away for more than a minimal amount of time. Death grip it over, run back over to it...whatever you have to do to keep it in melee and limit its damage.

Similarly you have to move out of the ground candy (the poison clouds the rogue drops) and if you can, try to tab to the shaman/mage to interrupt their casts whenever you can.

Yeah, it's lot to manage, especially if you have to keep it up for a long period of time because of bad dps...doubly so if your dps are taking damage they don't need to be taking themselves and forcing the healer to cover that too.

It can defintiely be the trickiest heroic encounter.

[Musclebound]

I've tanked this heroic almost daily since it was released. From my experience, what usually causes wipes in the first encounter are :
Low dps (I booted a hunter in naxx 10 gear last night who was only pulling 700 dps)
People not following the kill order (I mark all 3 and explain the kill order before I pull, and people still target the wrong one)
Standing in the rogues poison cloud.

If you can solve those issues you solve 90% of the problems in this encounter.

A word of advice on the Black Knight as well : If you have a DK or Boomkin with you, I find it helpful to have them save Army of the Dead / Treants for his second phase, they will usually keep his adds off the healer. I also have everybody stack on me at this phase so I can pop thunderclap and shockwave and try to get a grip on them.

[maddfez]

Having tanked and healed this several times, I highly recommend marking the mage or hunter (or shaman if you have neither of those) as the "kill first" target and not actively tanking it. Get the rogue / warrior away from the rest of your group and the damage on the rest of the group will go way down and make the healer's job a lot easier. I'll taunt the mage / hunter periodically, but my #1 goal is to keep the bladestorm / fan of knives / poison damage from impacting the rest of the group.

[Insahnity]

I'd wager your gear is a bit borderline erring to not enough gear. If you add a poor healer, yer toast.

My advice is based on Alliance, for all you Hordies out there reading this, Sorry, I don't have experience on that.

Assuming you can fix gear, you *really* have to pay attention to kill order. My preference in order:
1) Tauren shaman - Lots of HP, hits like a cotton ball, but his biggest danger is that he heals others. Generally, if you wipe with healer up, it's because you couldn't burn him fast enough before other 2 DPS nailed you. As mentioned above, can be stunned, interrupted, etc., so be sure to save your interrupts for those rather than chain lightning, etc., as it is easy if you interrupt every heal.
Typically, I assign some DPS to stay on interrupts, especially shamans, but being the cynical PuGer I will use mine if they aren't fast enough for my liking. Following tools are useful
Druids - Bash
Paladins - Hammer of Justice, Avenger's Shield
Warriors - Gag Order, (Shield Bash/Heroic Throw), Revenge stun, etc.
DK - strangulate, mind freeze
2) Undead rogue. He puts out a lot of poison damage. Some people kill him before tauren shaman, but I hate having to burn through heals. DPS also need to be aware of the poison clouds, as the tank is the one getting the heals.
-If you have a shaman, insist on cleansing totem. Druid healers should maintain abolish poison, it saves a LOT of healing.
-If you cannot see the poison vial cloud, YOU WILL GET A DEBUFF (looks like Romulo's Poison Vial Trinket (from Kara) Icon, Ghost Dye, etc.) Look at your debuffs rather than the ground if you have lower graphics settings.
3)Blood Elf Mage - Fireballs are annoying, but having somebody sheeped really hurts.
4)Troll Hunter - Not particularly bad, but I kill ranged before melee.
5) Orc Warrior - He is quite annoying, simply because he tosses you out of melee range. This is especially bad for bears and warriors, as his toss is just under charge min range. Fortunately, if you are on somebody else, his toss puts you within charge range of them. If you are out of melee range, your healer aggro is on the rise, your DPS may not react fast enough and their aggro rises, but your aggro drops to a halt. Early on pulls, this can result in a loss of aggro as you can't establish enough aggro because you don't have enough contact time. Paladins shouldn't have that issue with a shield toss and hammer of the righteous (the two along with a consecrate is more than enough to establish solid aggro), and unholy/Frost should grab enough with their respective abilities (DnD+pestilenced diseases or DnD + HB). I can see blood DKs having some troubles. He also bladestorms, which is really bad when melee DPS doesnt get out of the way.

Misdirect/TotT helps, obviously. Most healers fail because they can't heal 5 people that fast (unless they are holy, but then they struggle with single target tank healing if they or the tank are undergeared, so its tough either way).

Appropriate resistances do have a significant impact. Fire for mage, nature for shaman/hunter/rogue, shadow for Black Knight. Shamans and paladins are handy here, as they cover 2 out of 3, with hunters and priests contributing.