Reply With QuoteWhen running under the hit cap, I saw a lot of Demo, TC, and Taunt missing. That is just something I cannot handle when holding the line.
So I was poking around in my BiS list and threw the various upgrades I expect to get over the next few weeks onto the wowhead profiler:
ilvl 245 upgrades - Profiler - Wowhead
Looks pretty good with over 41.3k+ unbuffed hp (BS/JC), 57 (hard-capped) expertise, great defense, dodge, parry.
The only glaring issue that I see is the substantial lack of hit (only 52 in my example) being WELL below the hit cap of 263. Is that much of a problem? I suppose that would carry with it the need to glyph for taunt to allow tank swaps on required fights.
How much of a problem would it be to have hit between 0-100? You could switch in the T9 legs for some added hit but even with that you are still barely going to break 100 unless you continue to use some older Ulduar pieces (lower ilvl) such as back, wrists, hands, ring, belt, etc to try and make up for a lack of hit on all the new ilvl gear.
It would seem odd to pass on gear upgrades with higher ilvl and better stats simply due to a complete lack of hit on most of all the new gear.
Thoughts?
EDIT: The 52 in my example even counts gemming hit/stam in some yellow sockets lol
EDIT2: I suppose I should have prefaced this thread with a note that this is really only looking at BiS ToC gear with ilvl245
Last edited by Squirrelnut; 08-20-2009 at 02:10 PM.
When running under the hit cap, I saw a lot of Demo, TC, and Taunt missing. That is just something I cannot handle when holding the line.
I agree I was seeing a fairly substantial number of misses to Thunderclap / Demo Shout and Taunt if not glyphed for it even when around 170 hit; only when I return to 200+ hit does it seem like little issue of things missing.
But perhaps hit isn't as important as many people thought when in near BiS gear with high ilvl, near or at expertise cap, great hp and great avoidance? Xav comes to mind even when looking at gear prior to ToC release as I noticed he used Glyph of Taunt and only had like 50-100 hit with BiS gear from hardmodes & Algalon etc.
Just looking at that gear set you could easily switch out the neck with the Conquest badge neck which is basically just as good as the one you have on there (4 more strength, 6 less stam, 4 less defense rating, and 42 hit instead of 48 expertise) and that would just about double your hit by itself.
That's still really low, though...
Personally I try to stay over at least 6% chance to hit because an early shield slam miss combined with an eager DPS getting an early string of crits can spell certain doom for your caster friends, but who knows, the expertise hard cap might make up for the loss of hit as long as you had a respectable 3-5% to hit... I dunno how the numbers would work on that, but I can't imagine a + 1.49% to hit being a good thing...
Huhmmm. That is interesting. I will keep an eye on this thread to see what others say.
Seems like they have phased out both hit & block rating in the new content preferring to substantially add more expertise, parry & block value to gear. Very odd, perhaps an upcoming mechanic change in Icecrown?
Taunt is counting as spell... You need taunt glyph on top of 263 hit to be sure it wont miss EVER. Glyphing it over low amount of hit is making it more reliable but that will not change the problem this set have.
Try several changes:
Wrist: Saronite swordbreakers have hit + yellow gem slot (weaker then shieldmaiden one but better for this set)
Neck from badges as advised.
Enchant gloves with precision and weapon with accuracy.
Take into account worg tatare (+40 hit) food.
I think you have too much expertise btw...
Mookey | GM of <RISE> Xavius [EU]
I realize the taunt glyph is to take you beyond 263 hit cap to ensure they take effect but in my example the glyph was taking the place of the 263 hit so that taunts frequently still work just like they do for those of us in Ulduar gear (generally between 200-263 hit) but with no taunt glyph.
I intentionally left off mentioning hit food as I am curious as to the actual gear stats and it should be a given that people will use food to fill in gaps when it actually comes raid time.
I agree swapping in Saronite Swordbreakers - Item - World of Warcraft would be a viable option but the general question remains since even that would only bring you up around 100-150 hit.
Exp hard cap is nice and all, but Expertise doesn't help all of your abilities where Hit does. Thunderclap and Shockwave are your main AoE abilities, and Exp doesn't do anything for them, they will miss due to the lack of hit. If you are dropping that low on hit you can kiss AoE tanking goodbye.
In terms of Survivability, Expertise will prevent some parry haste which can be a very nasty mechanic in certain situations, but how does that haste added to 1 attack compare to missing thunderclap say 2 times in a row because of lack of hit. 16 seconds of full speed swings vs 1 swing having a 40% haste increase for what is left on the swing timer.
Your ad could be here.
I understand the difference between expertise and hit, my question was not a mechanics issue (comparing expertise above soft cap vs hit) as much as a discussion topic based on the stats available on 90% of all the new ilvl245+ gear and the reasoning behind it
Ulduar seemed to provide both expertise and hit options (slightly favoring hit) whereas ToC seems to substantially favor expertise.
EDIT: Perhaps the hit pieces (Saronite Swordbreakers - Item - World of Warcraft, Hellscream's Legguards of Triumph, Titanskin Cloak - Item - World of Warcraft) will become baseline and variation will only come in deciding what to use in other slots? It seems like that would GREATLY limit people's itemization choices unless Bliz simply expects people to bypass ilvl gear upgrades due to the fact that more pieces of Ulduar gear have hit then their ToC upgrade counterparts.
Last edited by Squirrelnut; 08-20-2009 at 01:51 PM.
Just because something has a higher ilevel doesn't mean it's always an upgrade.
I also think it's worth noting the badge trinket [item]Mark of Supremacy[/item] gives well over 3% of the 8% hit we need alone. Maybe they hope tanks will stop stuffing their pockets with cooldown trinkets (esp. since thus far in the coliseum it seems not as necessary). Blizz has said they wanted to get away from those sorts of fights and that they want tanks to focus more on "dps" stats than they are currently.
Blizz never seems to really get the ball rolling on balanced gear selections... It's always 500 items for one type of itemization, and very rarely is it 100 items each for 5 different itemizations. (Numbers being hyperbole obviously)
Another thing that kind of sucks is how there aren't (as far as I know) any high armor items out there besides the trinkets. Losing Saronite Plated Legs' 700 extra armor (on top of Leviathan's Coil losing half its armor two or three patches ago) makes Mofo a sad panda
I would be hard pressed to see a tank dropping Juggernaut's Vitality or Heart of Iron to pickup more hit.
Regarding armor there are some nice additions to help you out with losing Saronite Plated Legs for the armor lovers out there (Forlorn Barrier, Clutch of Fortification, Band of the Twin Val'kyr, Glyph of Indomitability)
Oh, I totally agree 'Nut. Just paraphrasing Blizz (and you'll note that even in your armor lovers list you're still swapping out one of those trinkets potentially. Granted... there's still an EH benefit there however.).
I disagree Squirrelnut, Ulduar gear has several metric tonnes of hit, not "slightly favouring". I saw a purely badge geared/crafted/BoE tank in t8.5 with no hit gems or enchants hitting 369 hit in the HALP forum. Just as Naxx has too much expertise and not enough hit, which added to the popularity of items like Grim Toll, the abundance of hit in one trinket alone was worth more than the ArP proc for some people.Originally Posted by Squirrelnut
As for blizzard, they out and out TOLD us they did not want to automatically assume moar ilvl=instant upgrade. They intended people to keep Nax gear even though it was lower ilvl and therefore inferior overall, to keep other important stats, all part of making sacrifices to remain viable. To balance this off, Ulduar had relatively little expertise, because you could get it in Nax gear (it was still there, just as hit was sparsely available in nax gear). And now they are doing it again, with ToC having expertise and little hit, so that we will retain some ulduar gear for hit and upgrade the rest for expertise (or even better, upgrade nax expertise gear to ToC expertise gear?? Kwazy Developers!)
Yeah, frustrating all in all.
Methinks Glyph of Indomitability will be as popular as Defender's Code, which is to say many people view it as "ilvl trinket for FL fight". I appreciate their EH value, but not everyone does.
Or as a "droods only" kinda trinket.
RE: Block rating going down. I think that with the Tier9 4pc bonus reducing the cooldown for Shield Block (down to 30 seconds with talents) we are going to be moving away from passive blocking and more toward active blocking via cooldown. 20 seconds per minute or 1/3 of a boss fight will have warriors protected by a 100% block rating.
I believe this concept is even more reinforced by the Block Value going up huge amounts on the new gear.
RE: Parry going up. Looks like they are hoping to move warriors to a more balanced avoidance system. Instead of 26% dodge and 19% parry we should hopefully see warriors running around with 24% to both dodge and parry. This is a very good thing considering diminishing returns on both stats.
RE: Hit rating. I have been noticing the swing away from hit rating as gear is being upgraded but there are certainly some easy fixes to the problem and that is mainly going to come from a few items having a lot of hit rating instead of having a little hit rating on many items.
As already mentioned:
- Tier9 pants. You'll want them for your 4 bonus and for the big chunk of block value, the hit rating is nice too.
- Dreadscale bracers or the Crafted bracers both yield hit rating and the Dreadscale also have parry for balanced avoidance stats.
- Conquest emblem neck is a good side grade
- Sabatons of the Lingering Vortex (ilvl 232)
Not mentioned:
With the amount of defense on all of our main items going up a large amount (90 on pants!) we are going to be able to dump defense from other sockets such as our rings and still be crit immune. Suddenly a tanking ring can be completely dropped for a TPS ring to beef up hit rating without giving up one of our huge stam trinkets for a hit trinket.
In the end, if we are cruising around 230+ hit rating and 50 expertise we should easily be able to keep our TPS above our DPSers and if it turns out we need to taunt, keep in mind that our Tier9 2pc bonus reduced the cooldown of taunt by 2 seconds AND we still have Vigilance in our toolbox.
I am at 107 hit rating and 49exp. I have no issue holding threat and on fights like Hodir and General hard-mode where i am tanking the animus i use a UA build and average 8-9k TPS
Last edited by Rukrow; 08-23-2009 at 01:02 PM.
Imo I would use The Black Heart - Item - World of Warcraft over Heart of Iron - Item - World of Warcraft, Black Heart's armor buff in a best case scenario works out to be ~1500.
Really can't pass up 1500 armor for 40 extra stam.
ICC 7/9 http://www.hysteriaguild.net/ -Recruiting CasterDPS(esp SPreist)
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