Satorri's Big Build Shop: Blood Tanking!

[dhthomps]

I started as a frost tank but recently switched to blood after reading post after post talking about bloods cd's(vb) being so strong as well as the tps.
So here is my armoury link and spec The World of Warcraft Armory
I must say im having a hard time adjusting to the new playstyle.
I almost find the rotation awkward and it seems my incoming dmg is spiky.
AOE: So on the pull im doing it-ps-pess-bb then multiple hs's?
Single target: It-ps-hs-hs-ds-hs-hs?
Am i missing something in my build, gear or rotation or is it just going to be a matter of playing this build till it gets comfortable?
Thanx

Read the original post in its entirety, most of your questions should be addressed.

[dhthomps]

From mmo-champ today (9/9/09)

Death Knight
Blood

• Heart Strike now has its total damage increased by 10% for each of your diseases on the target to the primary target, and half that to the secondary target.
• Vampiric Blood now lasts 10 sec. (Down from 20 sec.)
• Subversion now also affects Scourge Strike.

Frost

• Frost Presence now reduces damage taken by 8%. (Up from 5%)
• Threat of Thassarian now also affects Rune Strike.
• Unbreakable Armor now increases your armor by 25% and increasing your Strength by 10% for 20 sec.

Unholy

• Bone Shield cooldown has been lowered from 2 min to 1 min.
• Dirge no longer affects Obliterate.

Tier 9

• Item - Death Knight T9 Tank 4P Bonus - Decreases the cooldown on your Unbreakable Armor, Vampiric Blood, and Bone Shield abilities by 10 sec. (Down from 20 sec)

Glyphs

• Glyph of Scourge Strike - Your Scourge Strike increases the duration of your Blood Plague and Frost Fever on the target by 3 sec, up to a maximum of 9 additional seconds. (Old - Your Scourge Strike has a 25% chance to cause Blood Plague and Frost Fever.)
• Glyph of Unbreakable Armor - Increases the armor granted by Unbreakable Armor by 20%. (Old - Increases the amount of damage absorbed by Unbreakable Armor by 20%.)
• Glyph of Vampiric Blood - Increases the duration of your Vampiric Blood by 5 sec. (Down from 10 sec)

[Edgewalker]

Increases frost to an almost workable amount of TPS in comparison to blood. Unbreakable Armor is finally a real tanking cooldown. Makes DK's a much better class overall in my opinion.

[jaydee]

Sorry started a thread mentioning these changes:

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f56/5...atest-ptr.html

With these buffs to Frost and if they manage to make it to live, Glyph of Indomitability + Black Heart seems really attractive.

[alephnull0]

Satorri, thanks for the in depth and informative guide. I'm grateful for the time and effort you have put into this.

Now, before I get to my question, I understand that what I am proposing is far from optimal. I just need to know which way is most viable. I am interested in both blood tanking and dual wield tanking. Not things that normally go together.

I realize that after the patch, it will be foolish not to go frost for DW, but for now I want to give this a try. My question is, is it worth it to spec into IcyTalons

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Or would I be better served going into the Unholy tree for 3/5 Necrosis.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Since I am guessing that I need the first 8pts in frost, is it better to stay there or go UH?

Again, thanks for all that you have contributed to the community.

[dhthomps]

Satorri, thanks for the in depth and informative guide. I'm grateful for the time and effort you have put into this.

Now, before I get to my question, I understand that what I am proposing is far from optimal. I just need to know which way is most viable. I am interested in both blood tanking and dual wield tanking. Not things that normally go together.

I realize that after the patch, it will be foolish not to go frost for DW, but for now I want to give this a try. My question is, is it worth it to spec into IcyTalons

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Or would I be better served going into the Unholy tree for 3/5 Necrosis.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Since I am guessing that I need the first 8pts in frost, is it better to stay there or go UH?

Again, thanks for all that you have contributed to the community.

Your second spec seems more streamlined. Just try to move 3 points around for imp. Icy Touch (you cannot always guarantee someone else will be on your mob to apply it). If you're raid needs Icy Talons a Frost Tank could bring it, though he may be losing some TPS to do so.

[alephnull0]

Your second spec seems more streamlined. Just try to move 3 points around for imp. Icy Touch (you cannot always guarantee someone else will be on your mob to apply it). If you're raid needs Icy Talons a Frost Tank could bring it, though he may be losing some TPS to do so.

Well, I was thinking that I would want either Icy Talons or Necrosis to improve my white damage since I would be DW. If someone else applies Icy Talons, that is not going to help me much, is it? Or am I missing something?

I realiaze Necrosis is a little safer, even if parry haste is a small concern, I would think that it would not make much sense to push the issue. But, I can only get to 3/5 Necrosis because I need the first 8pts in frost.

So, I am not sure which way is better.

Thanks again.

[dhthomps]

Well, I was thinking that I would want either Icy Talons or Necrosis to improve my white damage since I would be DW. If someone else applies Icy Talons, that is not going to help me much, is it? Or am I missing something?

I realiaze Necrosis is a little safer, even if parry haste is a small concern, I would think that it would not make much sense to push the issue. But, I can only get to 3/5 Necrosis because I need the first 8pts in frost.

So, I am not sure which way is better.

Thanks again.

The general response to not taking Imp Icy Touch is this: Can you REALLY, 100%, guarantee that it will always be up? The dps you rely on to apply it may die, they may be off doing other targets, or they may let it fall. As part of your regular rotation it is usually best to let yourself put it up on a target. As for icy talons I am not qualified to discuss it, though I'd have to guess it's TPS per talent point is lower than other talents. DW may help it a bit, but that would be best for the DW thread.

[dhthomps]

Are any blood DK's switching to UH or FR next patch? I strongly considered it when BS had 6 charges, but 1 minute VB keeps me true to my original spec. If you are switching, are you just doing it for a change of pace or do you believe there will be a "better" spec.

[zegil]

Unholy build, suggestions?

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...H5H_,Y3I,10433

Blood

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...ITxI,YUI,10433

Iv been tanking as blood for a while, Looks like the unholy changes will be a good bump up the ladder.

The World of Warcraft Armory

[dhthomps]

UH: Take points out of BCB and put them in necrosis. Not because of parry-haste but b/c necrosis is better TPS per talent point then most talents.

Blood: Get improved icy touch. Search these forums if you would like a more detailed explanation.

[keebz]

Sorry if I shouldn't be reviving this thread, but it is a great read for anyone considering going Blood.

Anyways, my main spec is DPS, but I have a good tank set so I tank Ulduar 10/25, ToC 10/25, and of course heroics (dailies mostly). I am a frost tank and the build I use is http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...y,wMa-3e,10505. I use this build to OT ToC25 or Uld25, but also as MT. I like this build because I am able to cruise through heroics or crazily big packs of mobs in raids by utilizing Howling Blast. I changed to Blood last night, the same spec as you Satorri ( Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) as I read through your entire post and found it intriguing. I changed just so I could get a feel for Blood and the self-healing hype, and I must say it is nice to have ~12k heals on yourself with Vampiric Blood + Rune Tap.

However, I feel something is lacking in the threat department. I didn't have a very hard time holding aggro in H Gun'drak (I know a heroic isn't the best to test it in, but I figure it will do the job of testing AoE threat). Single target threat is no problem, just as I had no problem with Frost. With Frost, though, I had a button in addition to all the moves of Blood, and that move was Howling Blast. Whereas in Blood I simply lay down DnD, and spread my diseases around, use Blood Boil - in Frost, I have Howling Blast which is an extra attack that really makes things easier and more comfortable. If I lose aggro while tanking a pack of mobs, I don't have a button like Howling Blast to help get aggro back - I am stuck with my 2 taunts and regular strikes. Another thing to note is that most cases of tank frustration is not from aggro pulled by melee (you can just tab-target and attack), but by casters. As Frost, you have the instant cast Howling Blast which is ranged and has no travel time. As Blood (or Unholy), you have Death Coil which is good, but it has travel time, and may or may not give you complete threat back on that mob until he is back in your range.

Since this is my offspec (with good gear as well) and I love tanking with a passion, I need a spec that can be solid in AoE and Single Target threat, and Blood has the Single Target aspect. I believe, however, that Blood does not have the AoE snap aggro/threat capabilities of Frost (in emergency situations, I could pop Deathchill and that is like a KM proc on demand), or at least I don't know about it. Single target threat also doesn't really have a snap aggro rotation as far as I can tell or read. Although the longer you tank a single target, the greater the threat lead becomes which is the opposite of Frost from my experience. You can grab a great lead in the beginning but you may be pushing it close in a fight where DPS stay on the entire time (like you said, Hodir HM or say Ignis). This is due to, in my opinion, the smoother rotation of Blood whereas Frost is a bit scary when it comes to short CD's (Howling Blast) and heavy dependency on crit/procs.

When I say a smooth rotation for Blood, I mean it in terms of the general attack rotation - this does not include the need for well-timed Rune Taps, Marks of Blood, or even Vampiric Blood (I guess that can be said for any of the three tree cooldowns [Unbreakable Armor, Bone Shield]). It is certainly a challenge to have Rune Tap timed well, especially if your healers are on the ball, but what greater "oh crap" button is there than a ~13k self-heal?

Moving onto WotN, which I did not take: it seems like a life-saver for grand ToC or even some hard modes in Ulduar, but because of the confusion and seemingly underperforming mechanics, I chose to go Satorri's route: fully-talented Rune Tap. WotN may save you ~2-3k health by reducing damage, but you will still be in that low-health situation for a bit (face it, you are already there because something is going on with heals, and you don't know how long it will be until the heals roll in) even after WotN procs. Whereas with a fully-talented Rune Tap, you will be in that situation and will be able to save yourself more time by giving yourself a ~10k+ heal, in addition to emergency Death Strikes if needed. My 2 cents on WotN-Rune Tap comparison until a surefire conclusion is reached.

You are probably reading this now and thinking if I am going to actually ask my question about why I can't do this or that, but these are simply my remarks that I am posting after trying Blood. It is a great tanking tree with a smoother threat rotation for Single-Target (AoE becomes a nightmare once you lose aggro on that second mob) but requiring more efficiency for proper use of defensive cooldowns.

I hope this helps anyone that is looking to see the differences between Frost and Blood, and even Unholy. I used to tank Unholy before going Frost, and at that time, my tanking set was sub-par (DPS gear tanking anyone? ha joking). I have heard Unholy single-target threat has increased since patch 3.2.2, but I am not completely sure. All in all, great job on this thread Satorri - it has very useful information and conveys data in a way that is accessible by the majority of tanks, or potential tanks.

My only question to you that I would like to copy again since it might've been lost in the preceding paragraphs is: Is there any way to grab snap aggro in Blood for AoE as there is for Frost (Hysteria aside)?

[vine]

I need a spec that can be solid in AoE and Single Target threat, and Blood has the Single Target aspect.

I guess it comes down to what you are tanking, and which fights actually 'need' that snap AoE threat. There really aren't many. I'm primarily a Blood tank, with a Frost offspec, the only time I use my Frost spec is for:
a) faceroll 5man runs
b) Kologarn Rubble tanking
c) Thorim arena

So in essence I rarely use my Frost spec, as I don't really run Ulduar any more. ToC has no need of snap threat, all the fights are paced.

[keebz]

I guess it comes down to what you are tanking, and which fights actually 'need' that snap AoE threat. There really aren't many. I'm primarily a Blood tank, with a Frost offspec, the only time I use my Frost spec is for:
a) faceroll 5man runs
b) Kologarn Rubble tanking
c) Thorim arena

So in essence I rarely use my Frost spec, as I don't really run Ulduar any more. ToC has no need of snap threat, all the fights are paced.

So let's say you were to tank B and C in your Blood spec. Do you think you could hold aggro if you did not have access to your Frost spec (say you changed offspec to DPS)?

[vine]

b) Yes, D&D - IT - Pest - BB
c) Yes but with a careful watch on rune's, probably need a rogue for TotT

[keebz]

Eh after going back and reading some more on warrior AoE threat (relying on thunderclap), I was thinking in a similar manner. I guess Blood DK's are better off than that, but I have to say, my damage seems low compared to when I was frost.

[Edgewalker]

So let's say you were to tank B and C in your Blood spec. Do you think you could hold aggro if you did not have access to your Frost spec (say you changed offspec to DPS)?

You can DND every time AoE becomes needed with morbidity. DnD and spamming blood boil (diseaseless) holds everything in the above situation until they are dead if you are doing it right.

[keebz]

You can DND every time AoE becomes needed with morbidity. DnD and spamming blood boil (diseaseless) holds everything in the above situation until they are dead if you are doing it right.

This is a great way to do it for emergency or fast chain pulls. I have been popping DnD, then applying my 2 diseases on 1 target, after which I pestilence. By that time my runes are on cooldown so I'm waiting (personally, I'd rather save Blood Tap for emergency self-healing situations) to use Blood Boil or heart/death strike. Diseaseless blood boiling seems like a good idea though until you get enough threat to start HS'ing or Pest. I was under the impression it wouldn't generate enough threat but I guess it's viable, depending on your fellow dps mates.

On another note, Blood feels much more comfortable on single targets than Frost because of its rotation. Part of this is, as mentioned before, due to not relying on HB's 8-sec cooldown. DnD talented with Morbidity (3/3) also comes back up surprisingly fast (I notice it more in this Blood tank spec than my Unholy DPS spec). And I love being able to pop 4 HS's in a row without any cooldown. I did notice I was dropping a lot more health than Frost, for which reason I may need to shift points around. As much as I loved Mark of Blood, I need to find 3 points to put into WotN as I hovered around that 35% health margin for a bit, and seeing as Blood is the "damage taker," I figure WotN, however useful, will be significant nonetheless in those situations.

Which 3 points are the best to remove from the build to get WotN?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

[Edgewalker]

This is a great way to do it for emergency or fast chain pulls. I have been popping DnD, then applying my 2 diseases on 1 target, after which I pestilence. By that time my runes are on cooldown so I'm waiting (personally, I'd rather save Blood Tap for emergency self-healing situations) to use Blood Boil or heart/death strike. Diseaseless blood boiling seems like a good idea though until you get enough threat to start HS'ing or Pest. I was under the impression it wouldn't generate enough threat but I guess it's viable, depending on your fellow dps mates.

On another note, Blood feels much more comfortable on single targets than Frost because of its rotation. Part of this is, as mentioned before, due to not relying on HB's 8-sec cooldown. DnD talented with Morbidity (3/3) also comes back up surprisingly fast (I notice it more in this Blood tank spec than my Unholy DPS spec). And I love being able to pop 4 HS's in a row without any cooldown. I did notice I was dropping a lot more health than Frost, for which reason I may need to shift points around. As much as I loved Mark of Blood, I need to find 3 points to put into WotN as I hovered around that 35% health margin for a bit, and seeing as Blood is the "damage taker," I figure WotN, however useful, will be significant nonetheless in those situations.

Which 3 points are the best to remove from the build to get WotN?

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Depends on what you are tanking. If you are dipping into ToC 25 or most Ulduar 25 man hard modes, Rune Tap becomes a pretty worthless ability. If you are doing ToC 25 man normal, Morbidity gets to be the same way, as nothing in the zone calls for using DnD.

Also I sound like a broken record, but Glyph of Disease actually makes your blood rotations more complex at no gain. Glyph of Rune strike will be a greater threat increase, and definitely a greater chance at some substantial snap threat.

[keebz]

I think I will be switching out Glyph of Disease with Glyph of Rune Strike. I find that by the time I have to refresh diseases, 1 pestilence will refresh the disease on all other targets, and I should have a good enough lead on the primary target that the diseases won't matter. Of course, this is different for bosses but I guess the little extra work won't be a problem (like I said, I should be ahead on threat by then, moreso with the Glyph of Rune Strike).

As for finding 3 points to put into WotN, I think Morbidity will have to stay since this is my ONLY tank spec (other being DPS, which is my main spec) and I need a spec that I can both MT and OT with. I thought about removing 3 points from Subversion but I want to keep that for threat, so I will probably go the 0/1 Mark of Blood, and 1/3 Improved Rune Tap (maybe a 5k-9k self-heal) route. Only other option is leaving Mark of Blood since a 1/3 Improved Rune Tap is pretty useless (40 seconds, ~6k self-heal) and distributing 3 of the 4 Rune Tap points into WotN, and the last point into maybe 1/3 Sudden Doom or 2/5 Necrosis.