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Thread: Satorri's Big Build Shop: Blood Tanking!

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhthomps View Post
    I'm running a "similar" build to Satorri and wanted to put this meter out to the community to check for glaring errors (does this look relatively standard?). I'm admittedly not very adept at reading/extracting info from these so an tips (especially links) would be appreciated. I also run RS glyph over disease glyph.

    Rourne - lethon (US)
    Uh. Meter?

  2. #102
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  3. #103
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    Can't see your tank gear on armory currently, but the meters are hard to tell from the selected fights. Vezax is the best parser, but only 1 sample over 2 minutes. The only thing I saw was that you didn't use Rune Tap enough to warrant it in a build over other options. Also you should be able to squeeze out a little more heart strike damage, the % threat between glyphed RS and HS is generally a little closer. Blood Tap more after a fresh cycle, and make sure you aren't using DS when you should be HSing unless you are looking for a heal.
    Overall though, your play looks fine *based on meters*.
    The people you are running with are a little low on DPS for some of the encounters, especially the casters on Vezax.

  4. #104
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    ha ha ha DH, you're on Lethon? I grew up there...

    As for your parse it looks fine, if I had to guess from the numbers you're not glyphed for Disease, you have Vamp Blood, DS, and RS? Also, do you not have Subversion, is that why I'm seeing such a very low crit rate on HS? Also, you seem to be WAY below hit cap if your specials have a very noticeable miss rate. Granted short fight, small sample size, but it's big enough to be substantial.

    Edge, I know you're a threat monster, all about the threat, but as a personal choice I wouldn't waste Hysteria on myself. When I instead give it to the 6k+ dps kitteh to my right, that gives the raid substantially better value.


    Manito, why do I suddenly feel like I'm talking to a wall?
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Can't see your tank gear on armory currently, but the meters are hard to tell from the selected fights. Vezax is the best parser, but only 1 sample over 2 minutes. The only thing I saw was that you didn't use Rune Tap enough to warrant it in a build over other options. Also you should be able to squeeze out a little more heart strike damage, the % threat between glyphed RS and HS is generally a little closer. Blood Tap more after a fresh cycle, and make sure you aren't using DS when you should be HSing unless you are looking for a heal.
    Overall though, your play looks fine *based on meters*.
    The people you are running with are a little low on DPS for some of the encounters, especially the casters on Vezax.
    Rune tap and blood tap usage is something I plan to improve over time. (As a side not I'm going to stay raid leader for cataclysm and switch to a hunter for a better vantage)

    HS will go up, I'm still hitting DS when I shouldn't (I raid lead and look around a lot, so sometimes I'm just hitting my DS and HS buttons to make sure something goes off).


    For this parse I was way below hit cap (163), but I just got a stormedge so that should level itself out.

    My group's DPSers is a totally different story - boomkin and rogue are fine but warrior, warlock, and fire mage are way below average for that entire parse (doing 3k after patch 3.2). I keep directing them to elitistjerks but I don't know what else to do that isn't handholding. Another day another thread perhaps.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Edge, I know you're a threat monster, all about the threat, but as a personal choice I wouldn't waste Hysteria on myself. When I instead give it to the 6k+ dps kitteh to my right, that gives the raid substantially better value.
    I only use Hysteria on myself for real encounters during Vezax, and only at the start so people can nuke full on from the first shadow crash and never stop. I also use it on myself for no reason when trying to break TPS records.
    For everything else it goes to cats or rogues or hunters depending on the encounter.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhthomps View Post
    My group's DPSers is a totally different story - boomkin and rogue are fine but warrior, warlock, and fire mage are way below average for that entire parse (doing 3k after patch 3.2). I keep directing them to elitistjerks but I don't know what else to do that isn't handholding. Another day another thread perhaps.
    Yea, I hate to stomp on DPS unless it's a real bad problem, but there is something wrong in that Vezax damage, and it isn't you!
    Good luck mang.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Manito, why do I suddenly feel like I'm talking to a wall?
    Looked over parses tonight from the last heroic I ran...

    170ish Rune Strikes cast.
    250ish Heart Strikes cast.

    Rune Strike damage > Heart Strike damage on meters, by a good margin (200k).

    Why do I feel like I'm talking to someone who hasn't played a DK before? :P

  9. #109
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    /facepalm

    Ok, I'm not going to blow you off for insulting me again, instead, let's try a new angle.

    On your parse what was the total threat done by RS and DS, absolute numbers and %'s. You can run your log through this parser to find out.

    I'll paint you a picture of what each glyph can/is giving you, and we'll call it a day. If you actually want to understand what I'm talking about though, I recommend you go back a page and actually read what I wrote.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    Looked over parses tonight from the last heroic I ran...

    170ish Rune Strikes cast.
    250ish Heart Strikes cast.

    Rune Strike damage > Heart Strike damage on meters, by a good margin (200k).

    Why do I feel like I'm talking to someone who hasn't played a DK before? :P
    You are doing something strange if that's the case. While I agree with you that the RS glyph provides a greater threat increase than Glyph of Disease or DS, a lot of the difference is playstyle and preference. Especially if you are DSing with Death Runes for survivability, which you will be in any scenario that threat isn't an issue (virtually every fight).

    Why do I feel like you aren't good at illustrating points?

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    You are doing something strange if that's the case. While I agree with you that the RS glyph provides a greater threat increase than Glyph of Disease or DS, a lot of the difference is playstyle and preference. Especially if you are DSing with Death Runes for survivability, which you will be in any scenario that threat isn't an issue (virtually every fight).

    Why do I feel like you aren't good at illustrating points?
    The difference is that I use the Rune Strike glyph (instead of Disease, like Satorri) and I take Spell Deflection over Subversion. Satorri keeps wanting to argue that because of MoM, Heart Strikes provide nearly the same amount of threat as Rune Strike, which is faulty. No matter how many ways I try and illustrate it, he doesn't seem to see that.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    The difference is that I use the Rune Strike glyph (instead of Disease, like Satorri) and I take Spell Deflection over Subversion. Satorri keeps wanting to argue that because of MoM, Heart Strikes provide nearly the same amount of threat as Rune Strike, which is faulty. No matter how many ways I try and illustrate it, he doesn't seem to see that.
    I understand the argument, but I am saying you are flat wrong yourself.
    Heart Strike threat and Rune Strike threat are nearly identical with Subversion, MoM, and Rune Strike Glyph if you are well geared with a decent rotation. Subversion/MoM has the benefit on working equally as well for slow hitting bosses, spell casting bosses, and in situations the boss isn't attacking you (Icehowl, Casts, Jormungars, Jaraxxus... not a hard concept).

    For instance, in our last logs I have of me, for Koralon the flame watcher (insanely slow attack speed, lots of casting) -
    Heart Strike 116,524 241,596 25.6% of Threat
    Rune Strike 44,171 137,370 14.5% of Threat
    Threat Stats ( TPS : 7,835 ( 7,848 ))

    For XT-002 (Static midrange melee swing) -
    Heart Strike 536,565 978,589 25.0% of Threat
    Rune Strike 343,687 1,068,874 27.3% of Threat
    Threat Stats ( TPS : 8,461 ( 8,487 )

    Those are at the highest recorded threat values for DK tanking, and are similar to my other bosses for those bosses.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 09-02-2009 at 02:17 PM.

  13. #113
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    You're amazing, great work!
    /bow

  14. #114
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    Manito, I never said that 1 HS = 1 RS.

    I said that my total overall HS threat is usually the same or higher than my total RS threat.


    If you want to talk about trading threat for survival, then dropping Subversion for Spell Deflection is your choice. I was simply trying to correct your statement that Subversion was somehow a bad idea or a weak talent for a Blood tank. That couldn't be farther from the truth, and in fact (as I wrote a good 10 pages on above) Subversion ties into several other key talents in the Blood tree to support the whole Blood style of threat.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Manito, I never said that 1 HS = 1 RS.

    I said that my total overall HS threat is usually the same or higher than my total RS threat.


    If you want to talk about trading threat for survival, then dropping Subversion for Spell Deflection is your choice. I was simply trying to correct your statement that Subversion was somehow a bad idea or a weak talent for a Blood tank. That couldn't be farther from the truth, and in fact (as I wrote a good 10 pages on above) Subversion ties into several other key talents in the Blood tree to support the whole Blood style of threat.
    Speaking of survival- my TPS is wayyy far ahead of my warlocks and mages (idk what they're problem is). I was considering switching to a high survivability build.

    My question is: what is the highest "survivability build" putting at least 50 pts in blood?

    My proposed answer is:

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

    Glyphs included in the link. DRM included to better facilitate rune taps when needed.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhthomps View Post
    Speaking of survival- my TPS is wayyy far ahead of my warlocks and mages (idk what they're problem is). I was considering switching to a high survivability build.

    My question is: what is the highest "survivability build" putting at least 50 pts in blood?

    My proposed answer is:

    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

    Glyphs included in the link. DRM included to better facilitate rune taps when needed.

    If you move the 3 points you have in WotN to Morbidity, you have the same build as me :P

    We discussed it earlier, WotN is a less then spectacular survival talent because of the internal cooldown on it, as well as the magnitude of the damage mitigation being reliant on HUGE, slow hits, making it situational.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    If you move the 3 points you have in WotN to Morbidity, you have the same build as me :P

    We discussed it earlier, WotN is a less then spectacular survival talent because of the internal cooldown on it, as well as the magnitude of the damage mitigation being reliant on HUGE, slow hits, making it situational.
    Dhthomps was focusing purely on survival in his build. I personally dislike that WotN is so erratic, but I feel most of my overkills are either relatively small (less then 2k) or unsurvivable (50k+, such as an enraged boss). WotN has a reasonable chance to prevent the first, and only AD/GS abilities prevent the second.

    IMO, the only thing situational about WotN is that it is more useful in raids, where you see larger hits, while 5-man content has significantly fewer massive hits.

  18. #118
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    I started as a frost tank but recently switched to blood after reading post after post talking about bloods cd's(vb) being so strong as well as the tps.
    So here is my armoury link and spec The World of Warcraft Armory
    I must say im having a hard time adjusting to the new playstyle.
    I almost find the rotation awkward and it seems my incoming dmg is spiky.
    AOE: So on the pull im doing it-ps-pess-bb then multiple hs's?
    Single target: It-ps-hs-hs-ds-hs-hs?
    Am i missing something in my build, gear or rotation or is it just going to be a matter of playing this build till it gets comfortable?
    Thanx

  19. #119
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    I also really wish people would stop comparing the value of WoTN to other talents citing the amount of DPS decrease you take.
    Tanks rarely die from consistent DPS, they die from spikes. WoTN ameliorates SOME spike damage.
    It's a nice raid talent, especially in ToC 25 Heroic or ToC 10 Heroic.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    I also really wish people would stop comparing the value of WoTN to other talents citing the amount of DPS decrease you take.
    Tanks rarely die from consistent DPS, they die from spikes. WoTN ameliorates SOME spike damage.
    It's a nice raid talent, especially in ToC 25 Heroic or ToC 10 Heroic.
    Agreed.

    The WOTN argument has been fleshed out on these forums before. Everyone who doesn't take it cites the dismal numbers, and everyone who does take it mentions that it is extra survivability nonetheless. To add my two cents - blood tanks are some the easiest to heal, WOTN only makes it easier for my healers to handle spike damage (albeit not by much).

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