Satorri's Big Build Shop: Blood Tanking!

[Satorri]

I was speaking specifically to ratings, Jere, so you don't have to handle the base % and talents. Does that not still work?

and Bambou, the -10% is 5% dodge that you get at base, and 5% you get from 5/5 in Anticipation, neither of which is subject to nor affects diminishing returns.

[jere]

I was speaking specifically to ratings, Jere, so you don't have to handle the base % and talents. Does that not still work?

Only works if your agility(from gear/enchants/gems)+defense provides dodge/parry % values that have a Z*parry=dodge relationship, where Z=your dodge_rating/parry_rating, but in general, that means "not really".

The comparison is done on a % level when you do the math. You can convert it to "equivalent" dodge and parry ratings as long as you understand those really include your agility and defense values adjusted to be "dodge and parry ratings"

[bambou1000]

and Bambou, the -10% is 5% dodge that you get at base, and 5% you get from 5/5 in Anticipation, neither of which is subject to nor affects diminishing returns.

Oh ok thanks

[jere]

Thanks you two

So for me : Dodge : 23.44
Parry : 17.59

(P-10)/(D-10) = 1.77

So I need to have min 24.04 in dodge after I will look parry and dodge at the same level (to keep this 1.85).

Just one question why -10 ? Is it the debuff of Chill of the Throne ? Besause it seem to be -20 and just for dodge.

Ty

Just as a note, and I corrected my statement earlier, those -10's aren't exactly correct for you. The -10 on dodge is. But the -10 on parry is not. For pallies/warriors that comes from 5% base + deflection. I think DK's are a -5, but perhaps satorri would know the correct value. It is whatever value of parry not affected by DR, which I think is just your base value.

If that is true, the equation would look like:

If your (character_sheet_dodge% - 10):
Less than 1.85 times your (character_sheet_parry% - 5), dodge rating is better
More than 1.85 times your (character_sheet_parry% - 5), parry rating is better

Just make sure that -5 is the correct number.

[Satorri]

Nice, I learn something new every day (well, ok, I learn a lot every day unless I'm playing shut-in without WoW, ok even then...).

So, for DK's bear in mind that ours will be:
Dodge: -5% (base) -5% (Anticipation) -1% (*if* SSG)
Parry: -5% (base) -1% (*if* SSG) -4% (*if* SS, or 2% for each 1-hand SB)

So if you're using Swordshattering rune, it's -10% dodge, -9% parry.
If you're using Stoneskin Gargoyle rune, it's -11% dodge, -6% parry.

Though my previous comment still stands, thanks to the heavy amount of parry rating from Strength (via Forceful Deflection), it's nearly impossible to get more value from parry rating than dodge rating.

(edit: ha ha, I was thinking the same thing)

[bambou1000]

Ok nice thanks you two I correct my xls file

with SS : need 25.89 % dodge to be in parry level ((17.59 - 9)*1.85 = 15.89 (+10))
with SSG : need 32.44 % dodge to be in parry level ((17.59 - 6)*1.85 = 21.44 (+11))

So it seem to be better once we have def cap to take SS to avoid soon as possible the diminishing returns.

[Satorri]

I'm confused about your last statement. To be clear, neither SSG nor SS affect diminishing returns.

[bambou1000]

Oh ok I had included this two runes in the formula. I correct again

[Kensho]

Hello. First off, I'd like to say "Thank you" Satorri, this is an awesome resource for anyone who wants to learn about blood tanking. <3

Secondly, I'm a blood tank myself, and I'd like your opinion on Rune Tap in terms of progression content. While tanking ToCr (10 and 25 normal), or even heroics, it was one of my favorite abilities. Especially when used in synch with VB, it's an incredible survival tool. But in Icecrown (my guild does 10s only) I found myself consistently dropping low enough that WotN seems it might attractive choice. I was nearly using RT on every cooldown and it was at more than a third of my 5-600 HPS on fights like Marrowgar. But with a thirty second cooldown as compared to WotN's 15, I found myself wondering which could yield more healing/absorbs point for point.

WotN becomes more helpful as your healers have a harder time keeping you topped off, or on spike damage fights. Since I haven't seen any definitive numbers whether WotN does absorbs based off the full amount of damage or only the portion that would take you below 35%, I'll be lenient and assume it does reduce the entire damage chunk that takes you below.

On marrowgar, an average hit was 10-15k (pre nerf I believe). Assuming a 15% reduction on 10k damage, WotN is only 1,500, and assuming it procs every 15 seconds evenly, it's only 100 HPS. It's obviously inferior to RT point for point even assuming best case scenario, but my question is this...

...Is that smaller potential to save you more useful if it occurs more often?

In other words, I can almost certainly save myself with rune tap every thirty some seconds. Or, WoTn has a chance save me twice as often. You favor RT, but I'd still appreciate your thoughts on this. ^_^ I'm currently specc'd for WotN seeing if I can get some actual data from our parses to see its actual use.

[TheYanger]

The biggest issue with tapping is the opportunity cost of the rune. Blood tap is already on a 1 minute CD and most often used with VB when you need it, if you're hoping to use RT when you need it, you're basically sitting on blood runes, if you're not then it's certainly not going to be the immediate save you're looking for (And sitting on blood runes is obviously bad for many reasons, threat, Blade Barrier, etc).

For example, obviously hitting VB + RT is pretty amazing, but even if you have blood tap you're talking about needing a second rune still (Blood or Death, whatever), and the reaction time it may take you to hit the 3 things (Probably less than a second for a good tank but still), in most cases your healers should have already saved you.

[vine]

I use RT a fair bit, but thinking about it, I'm not sure where I would put the 4 points anyway were I to skip it. I have no issues with threat, and spell deflection is pretty lacklustre. DC is a very small part of my damage/threat so Sudden Death would be a waste. RT gives me a clutch save while macrod to BT. It has saved me on many occasions, as far as I can tell, so I see it as a good investment.

[TheYanger]

It would have to be threat talents, but when compared to WotN? No way. There ARE a good deal of passable tps talents in blood though (Subversion, Sudden Doom)

[Wars]

Personally I like the passive help that WoTN can give you. It's not overwhelming but as far as more potential survivabiilty goes, I'll take it over spell deflection or whatever is available other than that.

WTB old WoTN back.

[Pwnanapuddin]

Just a note, both of the new sigils are crap, that is all.

[zegil]

The biggest issue with tapping is the opportunity cost of the rune. Blood tap is already on a 1 minute CD and most often used with VB when you need it, if you're hoping to use RT when you need it, you're basically sitting on blood runes, if you're not then it's certainly not going to be the immediate save you're looking for (And sitting on blood runes is obviously bad for many reasons, threat, Blade Barrier, etc).

For example, obviously hitting VB + RT is pretty amazing, but even if you have blood tap you're talking about needing a second rune still (Blood or Death, whatever), and the reaction time it may take you to hit the 3 things (Probably less than a second for a good tank but still), in most cases your healers should have already saved you.

right out of my mouth

[Satorri]

HI'd like your opinion on Rune Tap in terms of progression content.

Rune Tap is something I've long been a fan of, but there is a VERY heavy dependence on the way it is used for value. It was simply fantastic in the ToGC model of things as it gave you a very powerful tool to prevent burst-gibbing. In the hands of a skilled user you could counter a sudden drop in health with a big stacked heal which would usually buy healers the chance to pull you back up. That said, it could easily be under-used or even forgotten and so, wasted.

ICC has changed things a bit (at least on regular mode, I assume this will still be true as we're better geared and facing the hard-modes). We don't take catastrophic damage the same way now.

On one hand, that means you don't need to save or focus on Rune Tap as a counter to "AAGH 5% health remaining!" <Blood Tap+Rune Tap+Death Strike=35% health back>. On the other hand, it gives us a lot more opportunity to use it on cooldown to prop our health up without suffering more significant overheal.

I've been playing with it a lot. So far my general feeling is that you can generally get a lot more effective healing now, but that meatshield, health sponge, burst healing is not nearly as warranted now as it was before. Our huge health pools give the healers ages to keep us alive, but the healing has just become an EH extension more often than an emergency life-saver.

So, I still *love* Rune Tap, but I feel like it has somewhat lost the thing that made it most vital. It is now just a utility for padding our hps numbers. I can't really fault the people who choose not to take it.

WotN becomes more helpful as your healers have a harder time keeping you topped off, or on spike damage fights. Since I haven't seen any definitive numbers whether WotN does absorbs based off the full amount of damage or only the portion that would take you below 35%, I'll be lenient and assume it does reduce the entire damage chunk that takes you below.

I'm making the same assumption, so...

On marrowgar, an average hit was 10-15k (pre nerf I believe). Assuming a 15% reduction on 10k damage, WotN is only 1,500, and assuming it procs every 15 seconds evenly, it's only 100 HPS. It's obviously inferior to RT point for point even assuming best case scenario, but my question is this...

This is the whole of it, but this is the whole it's ever been.

Do NOT take WotN for the net survival effect, the total damage reduction is not terribly competitive with other talents. The SHINING value of WotN is in saving your life. It's not about reducing your damage taken all the time, it's about saving you *just enough* damage when it really matters so that you don't die and your healers can pull you back up.

It's not a survival super-tool, it's a clinch player.

[Satorri]

Pwna, I don't know what you're talking about. The new tank sigil is a solid, reliable dodge buff, and the dps sigil is an always-on Strength buff. What could you possibly have to complain about? My only beef is that they're a bit boring and un-dynamic, but that doesn't make them bad...


Also, on Rune Tap, I have no problems using it when I need it 90% of the time. Why? Simple. Death Rune Mastery. At any time we have 4-6 runes that can be used on Rune Tap, Vamp Blood, or whatever else you want to pull. If you're using Glyph of Disease this becomes even easier. On the off chance I don't have a rune coming up immediately, *then* Blood Tap is on call to use it.

It's easy to waste Blood Tap as Blood if you aren't paying close attention to the CD state of your runes. The same is true of ERW.

[Pwnanapuddin]

the new dps sigil is something like 17 more str, i keep the current one up constantly as is..... the new dodge sigil is also only a slight increase in dodge, and i always keep that one up also when i use it..... for a stackable buff, it really does not provide much of an increase from past sigils and no more uptime for me in any way. I find it to be a waste of marks, especially when I already have my first piece of sanctified, workin on my second.

[Chamenas]

That makes them upgrades. Blizzard has a tendency to make upgrades woefully unamazing. They force you to reitemize and change around whenever you want to upgrade. In this case, I agree that the Sigil is not my first choice of an upgrade. But, down the road? It's certainly an upgrade when I have little else to do with Frost Emblems, but that will be awhile with the way they have it setup o.o

[Satorri]

That's what I'm talking about. They're not wildly better, just a little.

The tanking sigil is 44 dodge rating stacking to 5 (220 total) on every RS. So long as you RS once every 10 seconds, which we do, even in ICC, you keep a full stack, 100% uptime.

The dps sigil is 73 strength stacking 3 times (219 total) on every OB, DS, and ScS. That will easily easily be happening more than once every 10 seconds, 100% uptime then. That's a very nice buff.

The previous equivalents had a chance to proc 200 dodge or 200 strength on the same conditions for 20 seconds. The chance was balanced such that it's not always on (I have indicators so I could watch). If you gave it a generous 80% uptime (which is easier with the dps sigil, especially in ICC), you're still falling short of the new ones.


So like I said, not terribly interesting, but still a step up. If you want to nitpick about small steps, how about how you can pay 9-10 times the price on a gem to add 4 Strength (16 => 20) or 6 Stam (24 => 30).

It's a special sort of diminishing returns built into the tiers of gear. You pay more to get less improvement. It's still an improvement though, and the people who want to get the very best out of their gear just accept that.