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Thread: Satorri's Big Build Shop: Blood Tanking!

  1. #81
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    My method doesn't usually leave the bi-phasic method (odd rune set, even rune set, repeat). Depending on the choices you make for the above items labeled "play style" elements, your rotation may not be so easy.

    Forgive my language, I sometimes fall back on the term "rotation" when I'm speaking about the sequence of moves, but to be clear, I never advocate a set rotation for threat as a tank. I prefer a priority system as it encourages a mindset of real-time adaptation. Stock rotations as a tank can lead to a loss of performance if the player gets distracted by the need for a survival CD, reposition, etc.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #82
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    So in other words you do not have a rotation and you go thru with instinct, therefor what you do is just;
    1, Apply diseases
    2, Do major damage's
    3, Do w/e you have to do :0

    If I'm wrong please be free to correct :3

  3. #83
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    That sounds generally right on, I need to dig up my priority write up.


    Here we go:
    I don't use rotations, I use priorities and adapt on the fly. Rotations are for dps who don't have any extra hoops to jump through like positioning and survival CDs/abilities.

    My usual mode of operation, though:
    Single
    IT/PS to setup diseases
    DS first to get the runes turning over and offset the initial damage I take
    HS HS to start setting up threat
    At this point depending on rune CDs I'll usually just let the next FU pair come up for a DS while making sure RS is firing, but if it's urgent I'll Blood Tap and HS again. Usually with the positioning I don't have a full GCD's worth of time before they're ready.
    Once I get cruising I'll Pestilence when diseases have 5-6 sec remaining (though depending on what's happening that may wait until they have only 2-3, that's why I aim to do it earlier). And I always DS FU pairs into death runes, or DS if my health is low enough to get the full heal (frequent in Ulduar). Otherwise I spam HS like my life depends on it.

    Small Group (3-5)
    IT/PS on the way in while positioning, Pest to set diseases on all the targets.
    DS to get runes changing
    HS the main target
    DS will be ready shortly and will hit the main target as well
    BB once or twice to hit everyone, provided no one has died yet
    HS spam with occasional target swapping to whoever has gotten hit least

    Large Pulls (6+)
    DnD preset a step or so before the pack, will lose a tick or two but buys the runes back sooner and gives me time to come in with
    IT/PS and Pest for diseases
    Usually this will be a more sizeable blackout so I'll hit Blood Tap and BB
    DS DS to roll over diseases (here I like to throw in Saronite Bombs to pad my threat)
    Once it's all death runes I'll pop ERW and spam 6 back to back BB's with raid buffs those do very nice damage (1k reg, 2.4kish crit and they crit about 15% in my gear with good raid buffs) and that will lock in general threat (only focused dps or tanks sometimes pull off me then).
    Then I can focus on swapping to targets that I've hit the least and HS to keep up threat. Sometimes I'll use one or two of the last 6 runes on HS rather than BB, it depends on how it feels.

    A lot of this gets adapted organically as I'm doing things. Positioning, overhead health bars (especially with aggro halos), and actually watching where mobs move are very important. If you're staring at your bars for CDs you will not be as sharp a tank. If you find yourself trying to eye when abilities are ready and you can't easily watch both, I'd highly recommend picking up Power Auras. It will let you make clear on-screen glow effects which will help you track that without taking your eyes away from the actual situation or cluttering your screen.
    Little dated, but still accurate.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #84
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    Satorri I noticed in your blood DK tanking build you glyphed DS, Vamp, and Disease. Did you choose pest disease refresh for ease of play over the +25% dmg to DS? Ever consider the DnD glyph for +20% dmg?

    I often go into a small group of 3-4 with a DnD in front of me, run into it as I grip the first target into it with me, then hit them with IT-PS, and by the time the rest of the group runs into my DnD circle, I hit Pest to spread diseases then have 1 blood rune left for a HS on main +1. Then I'm staring at my GCD.

    When I get back my 2x blood, and 4x death runs, I then do HS's, and maybe a BB if #3 or 4 isnt being hit by HS. This usually puts all mobs on me and as long as DPS sticks to my main target, we're cycling through #2-4 to kill. Doesn't using a pest refresher, then spamming BB eat up all your blood runes, and starve HS's? Or by then you're deep into death runs from your opening cycle?

  5. #85
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    Satorri, when is the frost tank version coming?

  6. #86
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    Tried glyph disease last night in, and it's a nice quality of play glyph. =D
    Didn't want to work in naxx 10 though. If I can avoid opening with DnD it's an extra DS. Right now doing blood dps and blood tank spec, it's nice. Need to remember to use BB more.

  7. #87
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    Imo, for aoe threat i just go. Dnd > IT > PS > PEST - DS > DS > BB > BB (only if 3 + mobs)
    Since HS hits main target and his closest friend if there are 2 mobs only, i just replace 'DS > DS > BB > BB' with HS instead of BB. Get what i mean?

  8. #88
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    Satorri, I'm curious about your choice to not take Will of the Necropolis, and I'm also curious about your explanation of the mechanics. Does it only work on the portion of the damage that actually takes you below 35%, or does it work on the entirety of the damage for that hit that takes you below 35%.

    So for example, you have 45k hp. Your 35% breakpoint is 15,750. Is there confirmed testing that shows that only the damage that goes beyond that point is reduced by 15%? That seems to make no sense, seems like the reduction from it wouldn't be worth it if it divided the reduction out based on how much actually went past the breakpoint. Seems to me like if your breakpoint is 15,750, and you are at 30k HP(45k maximum) and you take a hit for 15k (taking you to 15k HP, below the breakpoint) - the entire 15k hit is reduced by 15%?

    If I understand the mechanic from the tooltip properly, it should be reducing the overall damage by 15% (meaning the 15k hit in its entirety is reduced by 15%, making the hit only hits for 12,750 (a reduction of 2,250 damage), rather than what you're saying, which is that only the 750 is reduced by 15%, making the 15,000 hit only hit for 14,363 (a reduction of 112 damage).

    If the mechanics are what you say, that talent is worthless, the only time it would have any worth would be for large amounts of damage taken below the breakpoint. Breakpoint is 15,750 HP, you take a hit when you are at 30k HP for 30,000, which would normally kill you. According to your mechanic explanation, 15,750 of that 30k hit would be reduced by 15% (making that 15,750 points of damage only 13,388) which, makes the total amount of damage reduced 1,612, which to me, seems like a pittance?

    I prefer to believe that the 30,000 hit is reduced by 15%, resulting in the total amount of damage reduced being 4,500. That seems to make it a worthwhile talent to take.

    So can we get some testing or confirmation on this? If it is truly the way you say this skill works, I will drop it in a heartbeat for a better one.

  9. #89
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    Azzi, I think you mean did I choose Disease over +10% crit to RS? I use glyph of disease because it makes my life wildly easier, I really enjoy the fundamental change it makes on skills I use. RS is my next favorite, but the 3 I have are preferred (personal choice of course). I don't like glyph of DnD for my Blood build because I just don't rely on DnD much for main-lining threat. I don't use it on CD for AoE threat, I only chain it for utility of pick-ups and keeping stray mobs off the ranged section. I much prefer the ones I'm using for their more frequent application.

    Nejir, I won't be writing one for Frost tanking. This alone took a good 3 weeks worth of my spare time to develop, write, edit, and publish, and I know this stuff by heart doing it all the time. Frost is nice, but it won't get my most lofty form of loving attention. =)


    Manito, the jury is currently out. The way it made sense before was as you described applying the 15% to the total hit, not just the danger zone, but I haven't been able to demonstrate one way or the other. You should note, Protadin's newly redesigned Ardent Defender DOES work as I described above, only with double the reduction (at 30%), which was straight from Blue input. I don't have the talent and I don't want to spend money to test it out, but the test that needs to be done is someone needs to take/catalog a few BIG hits from something and reproduce that with absorb amounts here.

    The value of the talent is as a life saver. Even if it averts 15% of the whole hit, it's still not a giant value on overall damage reduction. The talent is a value of life-saving. You don't want to see it proc ever, but when it does, it could keep you from dying, or preserve you a moment for the healers to save you. I don't take it because in current content there are very few things that take me below the danger zone reliably, and I'd rather use those 3 points in an all-the-time value rather than an "oh sh*t" scenario. This is not a choice I would presume as the right choice for everyone, and it is a choice that every Blood tank should make for themselves, consciously.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #90
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    Satorri, after doing more research (doing a general search in Google for "Will of the Necropolis damage reduction did fine), the consensus is that the damage is NOT split for WotN, but it is for paladin AD. Paladin AD only reduces damage that is done below the breakpoint, and it reduces it 30% like you said, with no internal cooldown.

    Ideally, if you are generating enough health for yourself, and your healers are doing their job, this can be a huge damage reduction talent when you take a BIG hit, as it will reduce that high hit by 15%, even if you take the hit from 100% health, provided it hits the 35% breakpoint. Now, the big question is, as you said, where is the application? Is there anything that can hit like a mack truck like that, that would definitely make this talent worthwhile to have?

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Manito, the jury is currently out. The way it made sense before was as you described applying the 15% to the total hit, not just the danger zone, but I haven't been able to demonstrate one way or the other. You should note, Protadin's newly redesigned Ardent Defender DOES work as I described above, only with double the reduction (at 30%), which was straight from Blue input. I don't have the talent and I don't want to spend money to test it out, but the test that needs to be done is someone needs to take/catalog a few BIG hits from something and reproduce that with absorb amounts here.
    To clarify, I did do testing, and posted results Earlier in this thread. Satorri has pointed out a need to use a larger (realistic) hit size to confirm, but I think the jury is favoring 15% of damage all damage, if the hit crosses 35% 'line'. Damage is reduced fully, whether the hit would put you at 34% or 1%, based on this limited test. It appears possible to have a hit that would cross the 35% mark, but the damage reduction would actually leave you above 35%.

    Finding a reproducible & controlled hit is hard, and I'm open to suggestions to do additional testing. Ideally, it's a environmental hit for 8-10k, with full control to 'exit' the damage being within player control. I don't want to use mobs, as that introduces all the mitigation/avoidance/crit issues... but I don't know of a gigantic firey pot of lava either, atm. I do have an idea regarding a specific mob (spellcaster), which may be adequate.
    Last edited by Esch; 08-31-2009 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Clarification

  12. #92
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    To be clear, on the (awful) mathy way of looking at it:

    If you are taking perfectly timed 30k hits every 15 sec to get the biggest proc possible, that's 4500 knocked off with each proc. 4500 every 15 sec is 300 dps averted. That puts it roughly in line with the heals from, say, perfectly used Imp Rune Tap. That said, nothing is hitting you for 30k per shot, and if things are going well, you won't get multiple hits that size, let alone every 15 sec. The CD also makes it so it won't save you to two/three/four shots in a row (the usual cause of death on the tank). It will proc once, and maybe save you another swing timer.

    Like I said, you take it to save your life, not for it's average actual damage reduction.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    Now, the big question is, as you said, where is the application? Is there anything that can hit like a mack truck like that, that would definitely make this talent worthwhile to have?
    The talent is handy as a last ditch defense. You can't rely on it, simply as hits can overpower it (ie, a hit so big 15% fails to save you) and the ICD means there's a 15 second opening to get killed. I opted to it as part of adjusting to 3.2, as my healers continued to expect an OP DK too often and the result dying. I wouldn't mind dropping it, but I don't feel my healers have adjusted to 3.2 even after my feedback.

  14. #94
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    A particular choice that tanks seem to pick up on and question for me, is glyphed DS over glyphing RS. The choice is that way originally because I had glyphed it to buff the damage and healing. Since the healing became disconnected from the damage, I kept the glyph since my math pointed that it was offering roughly the same value as RS. When I finally got the 2-piece t8 tanking set bonus (+10% RS damage), I went back to gauge the relative values, only to be stunned to see that the DS glyph still gives me more improvement!! Here’s the math pulled from my actual numbers:
    Total RS damage = 20%
    Total DS damage = 18%
    Total RS threat = 27%
    Total DS threat = 16%
    Based on that, a 10% increase in RS damage (15% increase in threat) is only a 2.7% increase in overall threat, while a 25% increase in DS threat is a 4% increase overall. The major reason I think this breaks down this way is two-fold. First, I always maintain over 20 RP to make sure I always have enough for RS, but I usually keep it above 25 to be sure I never lose this buff. I only dump DC’s above 65% as a result. The other side is that I use DS frequently to buff up healing, more often than is required to keep spamming HS. The result is that I may use DS more than other Blood tanks. All in all, I was surprised in the breakdown, but pleased with the outcome. RS is my one big glyph I’d love to include but I enjoy the other 3 I use slightly more.
    I'm confused by your math here. An increase to DS damage from glyph is nice, yes, but there is no way it is a bigger threat boost over glyphing RS. Glyphing RS is a 10% critical strike chance boost, for a tanking class that is notoriously low on crit already. The multiplicative effect of a crit with the base threat enhancement of RS+Frost Presense makes glyphed RS a much higher threat generating talent than a glyphed DS, for one ultimate reason: RS is not limited by runes - you will cast far more RS than DS on any given fight if you have any good margin of avoidance. The fact that you also have the tier bonus that gives you 10% more damage which makes those critical strike RS's even more valuable.

    I kind of laughed when you said you save your Empower Rune Weapon for when the DPS pops cooldowns/bloodlust/heroism for quick threat generation to keep ahead of them. Do you really have problems staying ahead? On any given fight, within moments I am 50-60k threat ahead of any DPS, and by the time any cooldown pops happen, I am hundreds of thousands of threat ahead - they don't even come close to overtaking me under heavy DPS phases. Probably because I'm glyphed for RS, and every time it goes off, my threat jumps astronomically (considering with the crit buff, it is every 1 in 4 or less is about an 8.5k critical strike).

    Something that also confuses me is that you state that you save runic power for RS, and never DC unless you're at 65+ RP. Yet you have no passive RP generation (thru Scent or Butchery) and I don't know about you, but with 2/3 in Scent, I have a hard enough time keeping up my RP with all the Rune Strikes I cast. I don't know how you can possibly even be keeping up your RP enough to take full benefit of the DS glyph.

    Personally, I glyph DS, RS, and Vamp. Blood. If you're talented enough, you don't need the Glyph of Disease to keep up your diseases for more than one target, just switch and pest between two targets and you refresh them all. Glyphing RS instead of Disease would greatly enhance your threat generation, at the cost of having to refresh your diseases relatively infrequently (since you have Epidemic 2/2). Not manually refreshing IT/PS on a single target has to be leaving you very short on RP generation at the benefit of using 1 Blood/Death rune, versus a Frost and Unholy (or Death).

    You champion taking Subversion for the crit for heart strike, but fail to see the value in glyphing RS for more crit than subversion gives, for a threat generating ability that gives more threat than heart strike, and goes off far more often with no rune cost.

    I can see some of your logic (like not taking WotN), but ultimately I feel like your spec and prioritization is leaving you far short of better potential. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what I've brought up

    Here is a spec I think removes some of the weaker talents (like Subversion - a talent that benefits BS, HS, and OB in a build that only uses HS/DS) while still holding some of the more valuable versatility talents (like Mark of Blood, Hysteria). Let me know what you think

    Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

    PS - you will note that I took Spell Deflection - if you aren't a fan of that talent, you would probably move the points to either Subversion for HS crits, or Sudden Doom for additional threat.
    Last edited by Manito; 08-31-2009 at 01:20 PM.

  15. #95
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    So, confusions and misconceptions. We can address them one by one, but consider your tone when you want to critique my choices. I took the time to write this all out, you may want to start from the stance that if I didn't explain it well, I still may understand what I'm talking about. If you think I made an error in my math somewhere, that's fair, but illustrate that instead of just assuming I'm wrong and asking me to explain.

    So, let's get to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    I'm confused by your math here. An increase to DS damage from glyph is nice, yes, but there is no way it is a bigger threat boost over glyphing RS. Glyphing RS is a 10% critical strike chance boost, for a tanking class that is notoriously low on crit already. The multiplicative effect of a crit with the base threat enhancement of RS+Frost Presense makes glyphed RS a much higher threat generating talent than a glyphed DS, for one ultimate reason: RS is not limited by runes - you will cast far more RS than DS on any given fight if you have any good margin of avoidance. The fact that you also have the tier bonus that gives you 10% more damage which makes those critical strike RS's even more valuable.
    The math is simple, as is understanding the value of crit for increasing damage. With 200% crit damage (everything but HS and DS if you have MoM), 1% crit = 1% increase in average damage from that strike. How much crit you have before or after is inconsequential in that regard, so saying "10% crit on RS when you're a tank and have low crit chance," is a faulty statement. However, you are right that RS is a move worth buffing. RS gets a 150% threat modifier that none of the other strikes have, so for all intents and purposes you can say a 10% increase in damage is a 15% increase in threat on RS (note: a 10% increase in damage is a 10% increase in threat otherwise, as the modifier from Frost Pres applies the same to every other move). So, the question for me, as I am quite fond of Disease, is do I want DS or RS glyphed. In order to compare, you only have to look at the actual applied buff. DS gives +25% damage = +25% threat to DS, and RS gives +10% crit = +15% threat to RS. In other words, in order for glyph of RS to be better than DS for me, if my DS threat is ~18% of my total damage threat, RS would have to be 30% of my total threat in order for them to break even. Usually it's closer to 25-27%, so DS wins out. I've done tests to support my math, and the math holds true. There are many factors as to why this is, and I make a point of saying, this may not be true for everyone. It is true for me (to my surprise despite the 2 pc bonus benefiting RS) because I DS a lot, not everyone will DS is much as I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    I kind of laughed when you said you save your Empower Rune Weapon for when the DPS pops cooldowns/bloodlust/heroism for quick threat generation to keep ahead of them. Do you really have problems staying ahead? <snipped epeen stroking>
    I use it to surge on threat when I want/need to. It is rare that I need to, but on fights like Hodir or Vezax a surge well timed can make all the difference in the world. Often times I use it to just add to the burst damage since I can boost my own contribution as well. Do you have a better time you would pop ERW? Maybe that would be more productive and less insulting to share. I am happy I made you laugh though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    Something that also confuses me is that you state that you save runic power for RS, and never DC unless you're at 65+ RP. Yet you have no passive RP generation (thru Scent or Butchery) and I don't know about you, but with 2/3 in Scent, I have a hard enough time keeping up my RP with all the Rune Strikes I cast. I don't know how you can possibly even be keeping up your RP enough to take full benefit of the DS glyph.
    I'm not sure where all your RP is going, maybe you are too liberal with DC's? I never miss an RS, and I never need RP for IBF or Mind Freeze. It takes one rune set to assure that. Afterwards I only use my DC's when I hit a spare CD and am at 65+ RP, yes. I have tools to fill the other odd free GCDs, such as Blood Tap and Bombs. Thankfully with my Blood build and method, I generate relatively few GCD's that need filling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    Personally, I glyph DS, RS, and Vamp. Blood. If you're talented enough, you don't need the Glyph of Disease to keep up your diseases for more than one target, just switch and pest between two targets and you refresh them all. Glyphing RS instead of Disease would greatly enhance your threat generation, at the cost of having to refresh your diseases relatively infrequently (since you have Epidemic 2/2).
    You're mistaken about something: You do not need to be talented to disease juggle. I created the idea on the beta (though I wouldn't be arrogant enough to suggest I was the only one, or the original). You are right however that glyph of Disease is not a legendary threat increase, you'd recognize I know this if you had read the above sections. You are mistaken about something else in the process though.
    1.) Disease juggling is fine, so long as you have more than one target, though it will always leave something without diseases unless you Pest twice (thus removing the value you thought you were getting by disease juggling).
    2.) Glyph of Disease allows you to use the same simple method on groups or single bosses, it can also be used to maintain diseases on off-targets (small niche use, but a fun gimmick, Pest the sheep and everything else gets refreshed without breaking the sheep or spreading diseases to it).
    3.) The gain, if you think of things in terms of a blind stock rotation, only gains you 1 rune every 2 rune sets with Epidemic, so, what's the big win there right? If you (can) disease juggle you lose the threat on one target but accomplish the same thing. Alternately if you IT/PS you generate only slightly less threat than that extra HS combined with the Pest. That said, with the play style of DRM having 6 runes regularly available for Blood rune spending, Glyph of Disease is an ease factor. I don't take it for threat or survival, I take it for consistency and comfort. This is not min/maxing, this is ergonomics. Through ergonomics my threat improves, as does my survival, as I'm spending less time paying attention to the rest.

    If I glyphed RS instead, I would increase my threat, most likely. Greatly? Well no, I'd increase it marginally, but all these changes are marginal, and marginal is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    You champion taking Subversion for the crit for heart strike, but fail to see the value in glyphing RS for more crit than subversion gives, for a threat generating ability that gives more threat than heart strike, and goes off far more often with no rune cost.
    Here's where you have gotten carried away with yourself. You buy into your own assumptions. Again, if you read above, RS is my 4th favorite glyph, and I made tough decisions leaving it off. I don't regret it. You value RS but fail to see the value of Subversion. Subversion increases the crit chance of HS and that's all it needs to do. Remember how I said 1% crit is 1% average damage/threat with 200% crit strike? Well with MoM HS gets a 245% crit strike. That means that each point or 3% to crit, is a 4.35% increase in HS damage/threat. Here's where results may vary. For me, HS does slightly more threat than RS, and so, increasing that by 4.35% (per pt!!) is a no brainer the way you consider RS glyphing to be a no-brainer. Also, as a side note, check your combat log parses, if RS is firing more often than HS, you're doing something weird. Just off the top of my head, with a typical 2h speed, after raid buffs, you'll get about 20 swings per minute. If you turned 3/4's of them into RS, you'd get 15 RS per minute. In a minute you will go through 6 rune sets. I average about 3.5 HS's per rune set, which is 21 HS's. But who knows, maybe you have a different combination of things that let's you fire it off faster?

    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    I can see some of your logic (like not taking WotN), but ultimately I feel like your spec and prioritization is leaving you far short of better potential.
    You are well within your right to think that. I also happen to think you are mistaken, otherwise why would I not just use this, but take the time to write out a short dissertation on it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Manito View Post
    PS - you will note that I took Spell Deflection - if you aren't a fan of that talent, you would probably move the points to either Subversion for HS crits, or Sudden Doom for additional threat.
    As a side note, Subversion offers substantially larger threat gains than Sudden Doom, if that's one you happen to like more.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #96
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    The math is simple, as is understanding the value of crit for increasing damage. With 200% crit damage (everything but HS and DS if you have MoM), 1% crit = 1% increase in average damage from that strike. How much crit you have before or after is inconsequential in that regard, so saying "10% crit on RS when you're a tank and have low crit chance," is a faulty statement. However, you are right that RS is a move worth buffing. RS gets a 150% threat modifier that none of the other strikes have, so for all intents and purposes you can say a 10% increase in damage is a 15% increase in threat on RS (note: a 10% increase in damage is a 10% increase in threat otherwise, as the modifier from Frost Pres applies the same to every other move). So, the question for me, as I am quite fond of Disease, is do I want DS or RS glyphed. In order to compare, you only have to look at the actual applied buff. DS gives +25% damage = +25% threat to DS, and RS gives +10% crit = +15% threat to RS. In other words, in order for glyph of RS to be better than DS for me, if my DS threat is ~18% of my total damage threat, RS would have to be 30% of my total threat in order for them to break even. Usually it's closer to 25-27%, so DS wins out. I've done tests to support my math, and the math holds true. There are many factors as to why this is, and I make a point of saying, this may not be true for everyone. It is true for me (to my surprise despite the 2 pc bonus benefiting RS) because I DS a lot, not everyone will DS is much as I do.
    You keep interchanging 10% crit with 10% damage. I'm not sure how that really calculates out - doesn't make much sense to me.

    A higher chance to crit, on an ability that has a 150% threat modifier, that also has no cooldown, and does not use runes so it is not as limited as a standard rune-using strike like Death Strike, is going to be far better than a 25% damage boost to an ability with less chance to crit, that is dependent on rune cooldowns to be used (so it is used LESS times per fight, meaning that even if the direct threat to threat comparison is the same (which it isn't), you're getting less value in the long run because you're using a "same" threat generating ability (Death Strike) fewer times). I'm willing to bet that if you look at any fight recap where you are main tanking, you will see more Rune Strikes cast than Death Strikes. Considerably more. Why would you give a second thought to not enhancing the threat of your most used ability?

    Napkin math here - an unbuffed Rune Strike normally hits for about 2500(3750 threat per strike). A critical strike (200%) makes this 5000. 5000 damage * 150% inherent threat = 7500 threat per critical strike. With Glyph, a typical tank will have about a 25% UNBUFFED chance to crit with Rune Strike, meaning an average of 1 in every 4 will be a crit. Make the assumption that your 15 Rune Strikes per minute is accurate (though it isn't because of parry-hasting), let's call it 16 for the sake of easy calculation - 16 Strikes, 4 of which are critical strikes = 30000 threat from criticals + 45000 threat from regular strikes, for a total of 75000 threat generated in ~1 minute.

    An unbuffed Heart Strike normally hits for about 1500ish with two diseases on. A critical strike with MoM (245%) makes this 3675. 3675 damage = 3675 threat per critical strike. With Subversion, a typical tank will have about a 24% UNBUFFED chance to crit with Heart Strike, giving it a similar crit average at the sacrifice of another talent (instead of a glyph). Make the assumption that your 21 Heart Strikes per minute is accurate (give or take), let's call it 20 for the sake of easy calculation - 20 Strikes, 5 of which are critical strikes = 18375 threat from criticals + 22500 threat from regular strikes, for a total of 40875 threat generated in ~1 minute.

    I'm sorry, but Rune Strike definitely wins out, hands down, and in far fewer strikes, that are off the GCD, and cost no runes. You "snipped" out my "epeen stroking" - but it is illustrated right here - the more critical strikes you have with Rune Strike, clearly the better your threat. You have to remember, that even though Rune Strike is only 200% critical, you have a 150% boost to the threat from that critical damage, making even a non-critical Rune Strike better threat than a critical Heart Strike.

    I know that your choice to take Disease glyph is for ease, and as a DRM user I understand you taking it. I still think that you would generate far more threat with another glyph, but that's a personal choice.

    Here's where you have gotten carried away with yourself. You buy into your own assumptions. Again, if you read above, RS is my 4th favorite glyph, and I made tough decisions leaving it off. I don't regret it. You value RS but fail to see the value of Subversion. Subversion increases the crit chance of HS and that's all it needs to do. Remember how I said 1% crit is 1% average damage/threat with 200% crit strike? Well with MoM HS gets a 245% crit strike. That means that each point or 3% to crit, is a 4.35% increase in HS damage/threat. Here's where results may vary. For me, HS does slightly more threat than RS, and so, increasing that by 4.35% (per pt!!) is a no brainer the way you consider RS glyphing to be a no-brainer. Also, as a side note, check your combat log parses, if RS is firing more often than HS, you're doing something weird. Just off the top of my head, with a typical 2h speed, after raid buffs, you'll get about 20 swings per minute. If you turned 3/4's of them into RS, you'd get 15 RS per minute. In a minute you will go through 6 rune sets. I average about 3.5 HS's per rune set, which is 21 HS's. But who knows, maybe you have a different combination of things that let's you fire it off faster?
    Perhaps you need to brush up on your parry-haste mechanics? Every time YOU parry, the speed of your current attack is increased, meaning the more you parry, the more often you will strike. Meaning more than 20 swings per minute. I was not a DRM user before (because I was using WotN) so without that mechanic as well, you'd definitely be looking at fewer HS than RS with my previous spec, especially on a faster hitting encounter, or an encounter where you are tanking multiple enemies. With every single skill having Rune Strike macro'd into it, I have always put out more Rune Strikes in the long run. That might change now that I have DRM, I'll keep an eye on it.

    Just so you know, my "laughing" wasn't meant to be insulting in any way - I just was a little shocked that you had threat concerns, since I rarely have them. I just know that I giggle a little when I look at Omen and see something like this:


    Manito --------------------------------------------------------------------100%
    DPS -------------12%
    DPS ------------11%
    etc.

    Blood is hands down the heaviest single target threat, and I guess I don't see how you would have any problems keeping far, far ahead, especially with DRM and Disease glyph - but as I showed above, Heart Strike threat isn't all that it is cracked up to be when put next to Rune Strike. Losing a couple of extra Heart Strikes because you don't have Disease Glyph and have to use Frost/Unholy/Death runes to refresh on a single target is a small price to pay for the critical strike increase to Rune Strike (which can't be raised with talents).
    Last edited by Manito; 08-31-2009 at 03:38 PM.

  17. #97
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    4,930
    Funny thing is I do more threat with Frost, or I did before this patch, I haven't tanked with it since. I do love my Blood threat though.

    I'll reproduce the math I used above, but spell it out a little more so you understand why 1% crit = 1% dmg normally.

    Let's take our fictional Rawr Strike. It hits for 2k non-crit, and has an X% crit chance (you'll see why X doesn't matter).

    If the crit modifier is a double dmg strike, i.e. 200%, a crit would hit for 4k. And, with X% crit chance, you have a 100%-X% chance to not crit, right?

    So, if we had Y swings (again, Y doesn't matter):
    (1-X)*Y = number of swings that don't crit
    X*Y = number of swings that do crit

    So, each strike that doesn't crit does 2k damage, and each strike that does will do 4k. So over those Y swings:

    (1-X)*Y*2000 + X*Y*4000 = total damage done

    Average damage per strike over ALL strikes = total damage done / Y

    So, Y cancels out to:
    Average dmg per strike = (1-X)*2000 + X*4000 = 2000 - 2000X + 4000x
    Average dmg per strike = 2000 +2000X

    So, if X = 0% crit chance, average dmg per strike is 2k. Makes sense, right?
    If you had X = 1% crit chance, the average dmg would be 2020, or a 1% increase.

    If you had X = 20% crit, the average dmg is now 2400.
    If you had X = 21% crit, the average dmg is now 2420, still only a 1% increase in average dmg with 1% increase in crit chance.

    MoM changes that for HS and DS. Now, the crit modifier is 2.45 with three points invested so the above equation works down to:
    Average dmg per strike = 2000 +2900X

    So each 1% crit increases the average dmg per swing by 1.45%.

    The only reason damage increases are slightly better for RS is because it has the extra 150% (1.5) threat modifier. So, a 1% increase in dmg = 1.5% increase in threat. Since RS never gets the crit dmg bonus increase, it will always be +1% crit = +1% dmg = +1.5% threat.

    Does that make more sense?

    Oh, one other thing, RS has one of the lowest chances to crit of my melee abilities. Base crit is 5%, plus I have a little on top of that because I like Agi so say about 12% raid buffed. That's the base, plus 5% from Dark Conviction, so melee swings and RS's will have a 17% chance to crit. DS also has Imp DS so it will have a 23% chance to crit, and has the 2.45 crit multiplier thanks to MoM. HS gets the most love with Subversion, sitting at a whopping 26% before crit buffs. =) Add in LotP/Rampage and Master Poisoner/Heart of the Crusader/Totem of Wrath, and those values are now: 25% melee/RS, 31% DS, 34% HS.

    But as I demonstrated above, crit chance has no bearing on where you start adding it, 1% more crit is always 1% more damage on average so long as you have a 200% crit multiplier.


    And the final note, ha, keep re-adding. If you are SOOOOO far ahead of your dps, why bother adding yet another massive threat glyph? Glyph of RS will be close to glyph of DS no matter what your style unless you somehow rarely use DS, but that's only for threat. On damage the DS glyph will get you more damage improvement. So if your concern is increasing tank dps for things like hard modes, then DS will suit you better. If you want an easier life to have more leeway to ply your other tricks, like I do, then instead of overloading threat where you don't need it, you play the somewhat smaller threat buff that also makes the style easier to play with Glyph of Disease.
    Last edited by Satorri; 08-31-2009 at 04:26 PM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    19
    Uh, are my threat numbers wrong? Based on what you said, and what I calculated - the threat per minute is still far more for rune strike, provided you have the glyph.

    You even stated that your crit is low for Rune Strike (I have about 15% crit unbuffed on tooltip - so add Dark Vengance (5%) and Glyph (10%) to double that, 30% unbuffed. Why wouldn't you take Glyph of Rune Strike over Disease?

    1% crit =/= 1% threat with Rune Strike OR Heart Strike(provided you have MoM).

    1% crit = 1.5% threat with Rune Strike, and 1.45% with MoM enhanced Heart Strike.

    However - base damage on Rune Strike = 165% weapon damage (plus Tier bonus) + X, and cannot be dodged/parried/blocked.

    Base damage on Heart Strike = 72-73% weapon damage + X * 20% (assuming diseases are up), and can be blocked/dodged/parried.

    Which will generate more threat per strike, critical or not?

    Rune Strike.

    Which strike will benefit more from a higher crit chance?

    Rune Strike.

    Which strike can't be improved any other way except through Glyph?

    Rune Strike.

    I have both Glyphs of Rune Strike and Death Strike, by the way :P I thought I stated that earlier. My majors are Rune Strike, Death Strike, Vampiric Blood.

    However, I find Disease to be a detriment because of less RP generation, minimal threat enhancement (especially compared to Rune Strike glyph), and highly situational utility as a trade off to (in my book) be lazy :P

    My DPS on a typical raid run is in the 2.5k-3k range.
    Last edited by Manito; 08-31-2009 at 05:19 PM.

  19. #99
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    785
    If you really want to maximize ERW, you use it on the opening of the fight, while under Hysteria, after applying fresh diseases, with at least 1 Death Strike converting death runes.

    Death Strike - Icy Touch/Plague Strike- HYSTERIA YOURSELF - Heart Strike - Heart Strike - Heart Strike - Heart Strike - Death Strike - ERW - Heart Strike - Heart Strike - Icy Touch/Plague Strike - Heart Strike - Heart Strike.

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    58

    wowmeter question

    I'm running a "similar" build to Satorri and wanted to put this meter out to the community to check for glaring errors (does this look relatively standard?). I'm admittedly not very adept at reading/extracting info from these so an tips (especially links) would be appreciated. I also run RS glyph over disease glyph.

    Rourne - lethon (US)

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