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Thread: I suddenly seem very squishy as a warrior tank.

  1. #1
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    I suddenly seem very squishy as a warrior tank.

    I was doing 25 man trial of the crusader with my guild last night, and was one of two tanks on the Northrend Beasts. The problem was, the healers where complaining I was dropping like a rock and that I was too squishy. After several attempts, the raid leader took me aside and asked me if I had changed anything recently, which I had not. At that point, he asked me to swap my dps spec for the northrend beast encounter. I'm a bit mystified as to why I'm going down so hard, particularly when I'm sitting over 46k health fully buffed. I also noticed that during the second encounter, while picking up the Sisters of Pain, I wasn't getting any significant heals and dropping right away. Before blaming my healers, I was hoping that somebody with more knowledge than myself could perhaps look at my spec and gear and tell me if I'm missing something obvious?

    My armor profile is:
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    WWS for last night:
    Wow Web Stats

    Wow Meters Online:
    WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

    Thank you very much for your time and consideration in this matter

  2. #2
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    How high are you letting impale stack? Are you using Disarm to elongate the time between stacks? You gear seems fine to me - with some exceptions for a gem choice or two it isn't the end of the world.

    This to me seems like a sentiment taken by the healers that you are too hard to heal so they just don't bother trying too hard to keep you up. I looked at the damage you took on the Lord J. ecounter (1st attempt) and it is just silly they couldn't keep you alive.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hossa View Post
    How high are you letting impale stack? Are you using Disarm to elongate the time between stacks? You gear seems fine to me - with some exceptions for a gem choice or two it isn't the end of the world.

    This to me seems like a sentiment taken by the healers that you are too hard to heal so they just don't bother trying too hard to keep you up. I looked at the damage you took on the Lord J. ecounter (1st attempt) and it is just silly they couldn't keep you alive.
    I'm tanking alongside a Paladin tank (Consulus) and we swap at 3 stacks and wait for it to drop off the tank not holding the boss before we taunt back. Although when I go down, Consulus is taking 5 or 6 stacks in stride without dying. :|

    As for the gems, I'm set-up primarily for EH / Avoidance since we are pushing Progression content and my Co-Guild Leader wants me to be a non-squishy as possible. Anything in particular you would change?

  4. #4
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    I'm assuming you were doing a taunt rotation on impales and using a bop to clear the stacks from you in short order?

    Neither of the parses you linked seem to have any indication that you tanked N-beasts.

    Are you sure you had the right gear on? (I only ask because I remember wiping for a half hour on hodir once when a gear swap left me below 540 defense)

  5. #5
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    When I have done it with my guild we usually have 3 tanks, with the third tank as just a nubby stack soaker while me and the other tanks stacks fade off.

    Our tanking rotation on Gormok looks a bit like this, I get 2 stacks, tank B taunts, he gets 2 stacks, and tank C (the crappy tank taunts) one he gets to one stack I taunt and we just continue the rotation like that. In the event that one of the tank goes down you can still manage to taunt at 2 stacks just make sure you time it and wait to taunt till he is about to apply the third stack on the other tank to ensure that yours are down. You do this because he applies the debuff every 10-15 seconds so you just have to watch his debuff timer.

    Your gear looks fine for sure, your health is high and your dodge is really good, however this is just a minor point, you are 23 defense over the cap, so why dont you take that 20 defense gem out of your helm with something more useful like a hit stam gem maybe so you make more threat get the socket bonus and still gain some stam?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kháelor View Post
    When I have done it with my guild we usually have 3 tanks, with the third tank as just a nubby stack soaker while me and the other tanks stacks fade off.

    Our tanking rotation on Gormok looks a bit like this, I get 2 stacks, tank B taunts, he gets 2 stacks, and tank C (the crappy tank taunts) one he gets to one stack I taunt and we just continue the rotation like that. In the event that one of the tank goes down you can still manage to taunt at 2 stacks just make sure you time it and wait to taunt till he is about to apply the third stack on the other tank to ensure that yours are down. You do this because he applies the debuff every 10-15 seconds so you just have to watch his debuff timer.

    Your gear looks fine for sure, your health is high and your dodge is really good, however this is just a minor point, you are 23 defense over the cap, so why dont you take that 20 defense gem out of your helm with something more useful like a hit stam gem maybe so you make more threat get the socket bonus and still gain some stam?
    Thank you for the feedback As for the defense over cap, that was a deliberate choice since Defense adds dodge, parry and the chance to be not-hit Given that I'm a bit under soft cap for hit, it's not a bad idea, but I rely on having the 1% hit from Deranei (1/3 of my raid team are Dreanei XD). Since my overall goal was to be as hardy as possible, I'm pushing progression content, I'm not having a problem with missing and I have a tone of life already, I felt that the defense was a bit better.
    Last edited by Bunnyfluff; 08-19-2009 at 11:37 AM. Reason: grammer

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Griff View Post
    I'm assuming you were doing a taunt rotation on impales and using a bop to clear the stacks from you in short order?

    Neither of the parses you linked seem to have any indication that you tanked N-beasts.

    Are you sure you had the right gear on? (I only ask because I remember wiping for a half hour on hodir once when a gear swap left me below 540 defense)
    The paladin I was tanking with was Boping at the end since he was taking stacks up to the roof. He took it initially, I grabbed it at 3 stacks and held it until his stacks fell off and then we swapped and repeated.

    My raid leader and Co-Guild leader and I all checked my gear in-raid and I did in fact have the proper gear on

  8. #8
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    The diminishing returns of dodge and parry at that point are not giving you the bang for the buck over stam in your head slot. You have emphasized progression content which should speak a little bit more to EH values for your gem choices. I would never gem for hit imo. Your threat should be fine even with substantially low hit numbers - the only thing you need to worry about with hit is taunts being resisted and you can glyph for that if you really want to.

    Going back to the point of your question here. I would be looking closer at the healing assignements and healer performance. Don't get me wrong there is always more you can do to improve your survivability (such as respeccing for Imp Demo and Commanding Presence) but that is always done at a cost.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hossa View Post
    The diminishing returns of dodge and parry at that point are not giving you the bang for the buck over stam in your head slot. You have emphasized progression content which should speak a little bit more to EH values for your gem choices. I would never gem for hit imo. Your threat should be fine even with substantially low hit numbers - the only thing you need to worry about with hit is taunts being resisted and you can glyph for that if you really want to.

    Going back to the point of your question here. I would be looking closer at the healing assignements and healer performance. Don't get me wrong there is always more you can do to improve your survivability (such as respeccing for Imp Demo and Commanding Presence) but that is always done at a cost.
    I've noticed that my taunts are being resisted more, which makes me wonder if thats a deliberate design choice from blizzard since my two piece is 2 seconds off taunt. I wouldn't gem for hit either, personally, with all the hit and expertise on the Teir 9, 9.25 and 9.5 gear It shouldn't be an issue. I've thought too about the issue of DR on the defense rating, but it also reduces your chance to be hit at all, and many of these bosses in the new content hit like a mofo so It's definitely something I want to monitor

    As for the healing, well, my Co-GM is the healer chief and, uh.....Hm.

  10. #10
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    Yeah that is an awkward situation. All you can do at this point is seriously monitor damage taken compared to the other tanks in your raid. Just come to the table with numbers and let them sort it out I guess.

  11. #11
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    Oh and be generous with your cooldowns (trinkets etc). I find all to often people save them for some special moment where if you can't even get to then what is the point. There are only a few encounters that require you to save cooldowns and even in some of those situations your CDs will be up before you need them.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hossa View Post
    Oh and be generous with your cooldowns (trinkets etc). I find all to often people save them for some special moment where if you can't even get to then what is the point. There are only a few encounters that require you to save cooldowns and even in some of those situations your CDs will be up before you need them.
    Yeah, I'm speced and glyphed for reduced cooldowns, I'm not using them enough and that's my failing
    Last edited by Bunnyfluff; 08-19-2009 at 01:56 PM. Reason: Increased Coherence

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hossa View Post
    Oh and be generous with your cooldowns (trinkets etc). I find all to often people save them for some special moment where if you can't even get to then what is the point. There are only a few encounters that require you to save cooldowns and even in some of those situations your CDs will be up before you need them.
    This is very true - I think that this was the hardest thing for me to transition from tanking in BC to WotLK. Using shield wall in BC was a big decision and meant it wouldn't be available for a looong time. Even Last Stand had a long cooldown (I forget exactly..8 minutes maybe?) So the change to active cooldown tanking in Wrath took some getting used to.

  14. #14
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    I have also noticed as a warrior tank that I'm very very squishy. I don't know if it's because I'm tanking next to an equally (slightly better) geared Prot pally, or what, but it seems that his survivability, damage mitigation, and overall performance just destroy what I'm capable of. The reason I'm posting is that while running a heroic with my guild, the healer said, "Damn, razor, you take more damage than any tank I've ever healed." I sat back and thought about it, and he was right. I'll have WWS from tonight's ulduar to post for more detailed information, but it seems I'm blowing CD's left and right just to stay alive.
    My wow armory is
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    This is using the traditional DW spec. I also have a UA spec that I've been playing with in ulduar on single mob fights, and was curious as to what everyones conclusions with it are--after 3.2 changes to devastate, is it worth it? Sorry if I'm a bit off topic with the UA question.

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