Deathknight DW Tanking Discussion

[jaydee]

Sorry if I had to start a separate thread specifically made for DW Tanking. The other DK DW thread is a bit hard to follow because of the mix of both DPS and SOME tanking discussions.

I don't have any info to share but instead, I'm hoping our theorycrafters here could start posting numbers?

I'm thinking of giving this a try but the best 1H tanking weapon that I have access to are the ones from the Argent Tournament rewards (Teldrassil Protector).

Some starter questions:

1. How much hit do we need to get this going well? Do we go above 263 for this?
2. How much expertise should we at least have to make this work?
3. Given #1 and #2 requirements are fairly met, is DW threat comparable to 2H given you're using items of the same ilevel?

Right now I'm still using Inevitable Defeat for my 2H tanking and I'm primarily worried about the amount of expertise I'll be losing switching to 2x Axes, till I get myself the Hodir10 hardmode maces.

[toonnamefail]

Although I run as a blood MT I will share my "understanding" of DW Frost Tanking.

Runes - So becoming a DW tank means you loose out on SSG (25 Defense and 2% stam) but gain 4% parry that does not succumb to DR. So initally there is going to need some gear shifting to make it back to the crit cap of 340 unless you have 2 1H weapons that are heavy in defense or are just comfortably over def cap.

Threat - I am still yet to see any resounding numbers suggesting either is better. I'm pretty confident though in saying that 2H will come out on top simply because our main threat ability will hit harder with a 2H then our 1H. But there is the arguement that the added avoidance from DW will create more RS which brings the gap a little closer. Would be good to see some DW vs 2H numbers on Oblit/FS. Also remember our 2H will no doubt be tuned for DPS (slow big hit) where our 1H are tuned for tanking (fast small hits).

Avoidance - Obviously the main reason to go DW, by picking up 4% from runes alone the tanks stats on these weapons will help put more and more avoidance on the table.

I am considering running frost 2H for a bit and then possibly trying the DW option just so I can know personally how it weighs up, when I do ill put my findings here.

[Caenn]

I have run a dual wield spec as blood a bit and experimented with it. Threat wise it actually keeps up with 2 handed tanking because of the way rune strike works. Since you are using a weapon with higher speed you will rune strike faster, and if you're using dual parry rune forge you will also rune strike more often. I remember outputting close to 5-6k back with mostly naxx gear and using the senjin protector axe and red sword of courage.

I can't comment on the situation with frost however to answer your question on hit id recommend having at least the cap on hit, with some of the pieces from ulduar it is very possible to do this as a tank with out needing to over gem for it. It's even possible to consider using Fallen crusader and Razorice as your rune forges rather than Sword Breaking to help build more threat. Though i did prefer being a blood build for dw tanking. The build i used looked like this http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=0355320530003303200023101330305003000 00000000000000000000005230000000000000000000000000 0&glyph=262012010504&version=10192.

As for expertise i would say that for both frost and blood to be viable with this now you would need to get to at least the soft dodge cap.

~Caenn

[Pwnanapuddin]

Feel free to check my spec and build. Works quite well for DW.

Currently I am waiting for either the Uld Expertice neck to drop, or get the new one from T9. Once I do, I will be swapping for DW Titanguards w/ Blade Ward. (I tank with about 31% dodge 25-27% parry going quite often, plus plade ward is a threat ability when it strikes back, simply amazing!)

[Pwnanapuddin]

As a note, the only thing you DO lose for sure by going DW DK with 2 tanking weapons is a portion of your AoE threat. But Since most of my runs are 25 man content with my guildies, I usually have our Protadin, a Bear, and a Blood DK rolling out with me. Mobs don't touch our DPS and Heals.


You will however become a monster for tanking bosses. I chart 2-3% less damage taken than all 3 of our other tanks on the same boss encounters. Not much, but its a step in a good direction I think.

[Ragefury]

I tought Sattori proved with simple math that Swordbreaker is more than superior to Blood Ward in terms of migitation. I dont think the minor threat component would makeup for it, not mentioning considerable price for those enchants

[Splug]

*How much hit do we need to get this going well? Do we go above 263 for this?

You actually need less hit than a comparable 2h build. The 3% from Nerves of Cold Steel will help you cap out your strikes, including rune strike. You'd be functional at 5% hit instead of 8%. The key difference is while it's not necesarily worthwhile to go over 5% hit, you can benefit from additional hit if it happens to be available at little or no cost. (Not all item swaps are equal item level, gem socket bonuses may be easily accessable, the item to pull up to the cap may have some overkill, etc.)

*How much expertise should we at least have to make this work?

Probably at least 26 skill. Getting over the 6.5% dodge cap is very efficient for threat, and by that point the parry-haste contribution becomes overshadowed by the raw avoidance gains from dual wielding tanking weapons.

*Given #1 and #2 requirements are fairly met, is DW threat comparable to 2H given you're using items of the same ilevel?

It's in the same ballpark, depending on the weapons you use. Tanking weapons will be lower threat, but more avoidance. Damage weapons, particularly with damage runeforges, will cost a significant amount of avoidance but can throttle your threat significantly higher. This makes for an excellent on-the-fly swap from survivability gear to threat or damage gear, which you can make even mid-combat. Keep in mind that you do want to retain 540 defense if you plan to be tanking with damage weapons.

-Splug

[Thundercud]

I tought Sattori proved with simple math that Swordbreaker is more than superior to Blood Ward in terms of migitation. I dont think the minor threat component would makeup for it, not mentioning considerable price for those enchants

Regarding Blade Ward (BW), this thread World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Blade Ward buffed in 3.2? and others have raised the prospect that BW was stealth buffed in 3.2. Apparently it is common to have 2-4 stacks of the parry buff up at any time. I would be interested in some current testing on this enchant versus the other "tanking" enchants with the changes to parry and dodge.

[toonnamefail]

I have run a dual wield spec as blood a bit and experimented with it. Threat wise it actually keeps up with 2 handed tanking because of the way rune strike works.

Im sorry but unless you can provide me some form of evidence I cannot fathom DW blood tanking to put out anywhere near the amount of threat 2H blood tanking does. Not to mention your build also has 2H spec?

[jaydee]

Regarding Blade Ward (BW), this thread World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Blade Ward buffed in 3.2? and others have raised the prospect that BW was stealth buffed in 3.2. Apparently it is common to have 2-4 stacks of the parry buff up at any time. I would be interested in some current testing on this enchant versus the other "tanking" enchants with the changes to parry and dodge.

Maybe the buff to Blade Ward has something to do with Parry becoming cheaper than pre-3.2. Thus the parry rating you earn from procs give you higher parry % gains than before. So it could be more of a side-effect, than an intentional buff.

Now I'm thinking of using either Sword Breaking or Blade Ward on one weapon, then a DPS rune on another.

[Lizana]

Regarding Blade Ward (BW), this thread World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Blade Ward buffed in 3.2? and others have raised the prospect that BW was stealth buffed in 3.2. Apparently it is common to have 2-4 stacks of the parry buff up at any time. I would be interested in some current testing on this enchant versus the other "tanking" enchants with the changes to parry and dodge.

There is no testing that needs to be done... It is the best proc based avoidance enchant in the game.

[Pwnanapuddin]

blade ward is actually quite cheap, usually costs me about 80g per weapon. I just farm the abyss crystals in regular ToC, make the titansteel bar myself, and go buy 8 greater cosmic essence from the AH or guild bank.

BW being unattainable due to cost just means your lazy as hell.

[Satorri]

Not a question there Lizana, but previously, and unless they changed something, it pales next to the DK Swordshattering rune.

[Thundercud]

Maybe the buff to Blade Ward has something to do with Parry becoming cheaper than pre-3.2. Thus the parry rating you earn from procs give you higher parry % gains than before. So it could be more of a side-effect, than an intentional buff.

If you read far enough into the thread I linked you can see that this is not the case. Several people posted parses showing a significantly higher uptime on the BW buff and seeing stacks of 2-4 more frequently. This can only be explained by a change to the proc frequency (either increasing the %-chance to proc or reducing the proc CD). If they only buffed the parry conversion this would actually reduce the number of stacks very slightly as you would be more likely to parry an attack thus losing any stacks you have built up.

[Thundercud]

Not a question there Lizana, but previously, and unless they changed something, it pales next to the DK Swordshattering rune.

This is also discussed in the thread I linked. Unfortunately, not in great specificity. Some of the napkin math (at which I am no good) seems to indicate that BW may actually average out to be better than the DK rune in the case of DW tanking.

Has anyone seen or done testing to check how BW uptime is effected by placing it on two weapons and DW'ing?

[Satorri]

Hmm, well off the top of my head, a little more napkin math to see if I can pin the turning point with the new exchange rate on parry rating.

Typical DK tank will have about 20% parry, if we're talking dual wield that's 9% that doesn't diminish (2%+2% for weapons, 5% for base), so we'll be a little ways along the curve. 200 parry rating will be worth roughly ~3% parry, maybe a little less.

If I understand the way the enchant works, every proc can stack and provides that 200 parry rating (does the rating stack or just charges?), and every time you parry you counter hit and lose a stack, or the stack lasts 10 sec.

Some people are saying (anecdotal?) they can get 2-3 stacks up at a time, let's see what that would take. It has a chance to proc on your hits, if you swing about once per 1.4 sec, that's ~43 hits per min. In order to get two stacks at once, you need to first proc twice in 10 sec, AND not parry in those 10 sec (2.0 sec incoming swings, 30 swings per min, 20% parry chance, 6 parries per min, ~1 parry per 10 sec, that's not at all unreasonable). If reports are that this is consistent and not occasional, then we assume that semi-frequently you're getting 2 procs in 10 sec, so if we guessed a 20% chance to proc, that's about 1 proc per 7 sec. That doesn't seem TOO big a chance and could lead to 2 stacks and the occasional 3 stack.

Now, if it gives you 3% to parry (4.4% before diminishing, if you're curious), and you can keep at least that with 60%+ uptime, then it could surpass the 2% passive rune on the weapon.

Previous reports had never more than one proc at a time, and with less than 60% uptime, and with the poor exchange of parry rating.

So, can anyone settle:
1.) Does it stack? (silly question I'm sure)
2.) Do stacks increase the parry rating given?
3.) Do you have an addon telling you how much parry it gives *you*?
4.) Using World of Logs or another parse, can you link an uptime and your weapon?

[Thundercud]

Hmm, well off the top of my head, a little more napkin math to see if I can pin the turning point with the new exchange rate on parry rating.

Thanks for clarifying the discussion with your maths Satorri. I'm gonna link this in the other forums too to see if we can get some solid numbers on this. I'm not sure why... my DK is only level 60. LOL. But I'm interested.

[Ryoku]

@ Splug:
The hit cap is at 27% for DW and not 8% you can read this both here :
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/4...ight-here.html

and here:
Death Knight FAQ. Read this before posting! - Elitist Jerks

The 27% are +/- 886 hit rating, so no where near the suggeste 8% (or 5% with the 3% reduction trough Nerves of Cold Steel)

Furthermopre due to the increased amount of hits you will increase the chance of a parry haste.

[Satorri]

Ryoku, the 27% is only for white swings, 8% covers all melee specials.

8% hit is plenty for covering most of your damage, and will put your white swings still slightly higher than a 2-h in sum, but you *can* benefit from higher hit rating more through white damage improvement.

Also, increasing hit rating reduces your chance to miss, it has no bearing whatsoever on your chance to be parried. That will only be changed by expertise. More hits does not mean more parries unless you started with a miss chance SO large that it was pushing parries off the table (in other words >85% miss+dodge).

[lyd]

regarding hit rating:

after 8%, hit only affects your white hits. you get more melee dps out of increasing crit and strength after you hit this cap. 27% hit cap for DW melee dps would actually lower your effective dps because you'd have to sacrifice strength and crit on your gear to hit it.

DK's are unique in that they use melee and spell damage. hit cap for spells is 17 percent. so at best, you are looking at a theoretical hit cap of 17% to cap your spells as well. so from 8-17%, more hit increases the likelihood of your white hits and your spells landing. I am actually unsure if this makes hit more effective from 8-17% than strength and crit. i am going to say no because DK's get co-efficient bonuses from AP, so this probably balances out the benefit to spells from hit from 8-17%. in other words, strength and crit continues to outweight hit for dps in that range, so 8% seems like it is still the target number, DW or not.