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Thread: Deathknight DW Tanking Discussion

  1. #21
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    @Satorri: Thanks for the information on the hit and white damage.

    Also, increasing hit rating reduces your chance to miss, it has no bearing whatsoever on your chance to be parried. That will only be changed by expertise. More hits does not mean more parries unless you started with a miss chance SO large that it was pushing parries off the table (in other words >85% miss+dodge).
    I didn't mean that hit rating has any influence on beeing parreid (sorry if I didn't make my self clear). What I aws trying to refer to was that since you will have 2 weapons (each maybe with an attack speed of 1,6) you will put out twice as many hits ergo increasing the chance of being parried (I am tempted to write doubling, but I suppose that even a bosse's parry is influenced by DR so I am refreining from doing so). Following the estimate from EJ that the boss has a 15% parry chance and you, as a SW, make 100 (1,6 weapon speed) then 15 of these swings might be parried. A DW with twice the same weapon as the SW would make 200 hits in the same time with each swing having a chance to be parried in 15% of the cases. So you would end up with roughly 30 swings that would be parried. This is of course assuming no expertise what so ever and only taking parrying into account.

    If we take the average expertise of 26 skill (not rating) we would end up with a reduced chance of 15-6,5% of 8,5% so for our hundrets hits for the SW you end up with 8,5 being parried and the DW 17. (of course again assuming no DR on parry for the boss)

    I think what makes matter worse is that usually DK use a 2h weapon, which obviosly has a slower weapon speed than a 1h (don't know the ratio but I am tempted to sa 1/2). So with this assumption in mind we actually multiply the amount of parried hits by 4 for a given same time period.

  2. #22
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    Ok, it's just a language problem then.

    It will not increase the chance of being parried, only the number of total parries, or the frequency at which you are parried. Again, though, increasing hit chance will not turn into more parries, even for a dual wielder, that is purely a matter of weapon speed. (And boss parry chances has no diminishing returns anywhere in it)

    To give you some vaguely accurate numbers for your example:
    Typical tanking 1-h = 1.5 sec swing time
    Typical slow dps 1-h = 2.5 sec swing time
    Typical dps 2-h = 3.5 sec swing time

    So, to take a Warrior (1 tanking 1h), a DK tank with 2h, a DK tank with optimal threat weapons for dual wield Frost (2 slow 1hs), and a DK trying to pump survival stats (2 fast tank 1hs):

    This would be the rough auto-swing count per min:
    Warrior (fast 1h) = 40
    DK 'Threat' (slow 1hs) = 48
    DK 'Survival' (fast 1hs) = 80
    DK 'standard' (2h) = 17

    So, we'll compare a few numbers in a stretch:
    Code:
             #auto-attacks #parries(no Exp) #parries(26 Exp)
    Warrior =     40            5.6             3.0
    DK-2S =       48            6.7             3.6
    DK-2F =       80           11.2             6.0
    DK-1S =       17            2.4             1.3
    Then we can complicate that with the considerations of spec and special moves. A prot warrior will use only 1 in 5 GCDs that isn't parriable (Revenge, 6 sec CD). So, on top of auto attacks the warrior will generate 32 additional parriable strikes per minute. DK's on the other hand, will use far more spells that are not parriable, and will reduce their auto-attack swing count by replacing them with unparriable Rune Strikes. We'll make it a Frost DK for simplicity, and say that she isn't using HB unless Rime procs. So with that set-up the DK will have (IT, PS, Pest, BS, OB / OB, OB, OB with FS fillers) roughly 8 parriable GCD's per 20 sec, 24 per min regardless of weapon style. If that DK has about 50% avoidance on an average swinging boss, you can expect about 60% of the melee swings will turn into RS's for the 2-h, and as such will no longer be parriable. The dual wielder will get a smaller % turnover, but a higher count of RS's because of having outgoing swings faster than the incoming swings. It is not unreasonable to expect somewhere in the neighborhood of a 30% turnover rate.

    So let's adjust the table from above:
    Code:
             #attacks  #parries(no Exp) #parries(26 Exp)
    Warrior =     72       10.1             5.4
    DK-2S =       58        8.1             4.4
    DK-2F =       80       11.2             6.0
    DK-1S =       31        4.3             2.3
    So, notice now that while you will get more parriable swings, and more parries with dual wielding than a 2-h as a DK, DK's also start way ahead of the curve for parriable attacks, and in fact, dual wielding tank weapons can only marginally increase your risk of parry-haste over that of a warrior with the same Expertise. And after expertise we're nitpicking on half an actual parry (which is only relevant in a giant number statistical average).

    What's more, expertise reduces the actual physical count of parries by a much larger absolute value coming from a higher count.

    Perspective makes a big difference here, the discussion isn't new, but there is still much missing perspective.
    Last edited by Satorri; 08-19-2009 at 09:52 AM.
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  3. #23
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    Last I knew, revenge can be parried as well. The tooltip doesn't say anything otherwise. I believe you're thinking of Overpower, which isn't used while tanking. I don't believe thunderclap/demo shout can be parried though - and they will come up every 30 seconds or so. Either way, that's not going to move the numbers very far though.

    As for the hit comment made earlier - I was very careful to explicitly state strikes (IE: rune strike, heart strike, etc), and then followed on to explain that further hit rating would still have some marginal effect. I suppose I could have been more specific to state "non-white melee-based attacks" instead. While clarity is important, at some point we have to draw the line before every sentence is so loaded with terminology that reading posts becomes akin to decyphering a tax code.

    -Splug

  4. #24
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    Weird, I *swear* it used to read like Rune Strike. Maybe I've just had my head in DK lit for too long...
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  5. #25
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    Revenge has worked that way as long as I can remember. When deathknights were first given the ability, Ghostcrawler described Rune Strike as "Overpower plus Revenge."

    -Splug

  6. #26
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    Satorri's data reflects a relevant observation about DW gearing in the end-game: alot of end-game DW DK's are replacing MH's with Slow DPS weapons, since higher-end tanking gear tends to put you well over cap on Defense, and blizzard has snubbed us on slow tanking weapons after Broken Promise ;_; despite this, it tends to be win/win: it increases threat via dps stats, and if it's a piece with +agility, adds a little bit of armor and usually @ 1% dodge. regardless: If we're showing only a marginal increase in parry-haste vulnerability on 2F DK versus a warrior, then the 1S/1F DK's are a) replacing a greater percentage of their melee swings with Runestrikes than 2F DK's are, and b) are decidedly less vulnerable to parry haste than warriors are at equal levels of expertise.

    that is, of course, old hat though. We've known for awhile that a warrior with a fast tanking weapon is more vulnerable to parry-haste than a DK DW'ing with a slow weapon in their MH, due to RS replacement and spell-like abilities in their rotation. It's part of the reason i get so frustrated when people claim that this mechanic significantly increases DW vulnerability when clearly warriors are not dropping dead for their surplus of parryable attacks. and besides, we know from the other DW'ing thread that Block, which functions similarly to UA, is not a countermeasure to this, anymore than UA would be. So it follows that if warriors are tanking progression content successfully, slow-handing DW DK's are certainly not any more exposed than they.
    Last edited by lyd; 08-19-2009 at 12:08 PM.

  7. #27
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    http://data.fuskbugg.se/skalman01/bladeward.jpg just a pic showing that it does stack.

  8. #28
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    Also note if the fast/fast tank has 30 expertise (ie. 7.5% parry reduction), then their table would show only 5.2 parry/min (rather than 6.0) in the second table.

    That is slightly less parry-risk than the warrior.

    That much expertise is achievable without gimping yourself if you use racial weapons.
    Let's hope the new Quel weapon remains 2.0 speed and as GC said (when correcting the community) it can be wielded by all weapon-tanks.

    Then we can stick this interesting stacking enchant on two of them.
    The DK tank site: pwnwear.com.

  9. #29
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    I rock slow/fast (Broken Promise & Peacekeeper Blade) and I have @ 40 expertise, 546 def w/ relic proc, 30.2k unbuffed health. most of it is straight from gear. If I re-gemmed and switched out my expertise gauntlets for a tier piece, i could probably bump my stamina by about 500 hp and i'd probably drop to @ 30 expertise.

  10. #30
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    The parry chance I usually work off of is 14%, sorry I didn't mention that. =) It's been a more reliable average value to compare against.

    Incidentally, I'm Draenei (no racial), and I was sitting at about 35-38 Exp for a month or so, strictly from gear, no gems, no enchants, no trinkets, just because of the gear I happened to pick up. It's not at all hard to get without gimping yourself, it's only a matter of getting the gear with expertise.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #31
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    Offhand speed irrelevant for TPS?

    I had somehow gotten it into my head that with Threat of Thassarian the offhand strike was affected by the offhand's damage (presumably also modified by Nerves of Cold Steel). I killed the big bronze dragon outside the Caverns of Time several times today, trying a couple different offhands, and as far as I could tell it didn't matter.

    I was testing between Last Laugh and the Infantry Assault Blade as an offhand. Across kills (each of which took about 9 minutes) I could detect absolutely no difference in strike damage between the two. It's possible that there's some funky normalization going on, and Last Laugh's higher DPS and higher speed is somehow compensating for IAB's higher base damage? But in several comparisons, both minimum damage and average damage differed by only a couple percent (and in no reliable direction) for FS, BS, and Obliterate. There's no way the tiny difference in Strength between the two could compensate for the 30%+ difference in damage. Maybe this is something that everyone else knows? But it sure surprised me, and made me feel a lot better about using a fast tanking OH.

    Incidentally, while this dragon shows up as Boss-level, it doesn't behave like one. I never missed with spells nor was I parried, and my avoidance was around 80%.

  12. #32
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    So, I guess it is time to answer some questions about Blade Ward for you guys.

    First off, this skill stacks up to 5 times. End result, +1000 parry rating, 3000 damage on next parry.

    Now, the trick for DK's with this for DW is the fact that it can proc off all of your normal white weapon swings, your plague strike swings for both hands, your blood strike swings for both hands, your obliterates for both hands, your frost strikes for both hands, as well as your rune strike. So, unlike a warrior or paladin who only should expect to see an average of 1-2 with a high of 3-4, a DW DK can expect to see an average of 2-3, a well as a significant increase in your single target threat on top of things.

    I do use the simple avoidance meter i got from curse called...... "avoidance", and I track my progress. Going in with DW Legacy of Thunders, I have 27.63% dodge, 18.04% parry with horn. My total avoidance at base reads at 56.60%.

    Now, I do have the new Sigil (even tho it says chance, it has a redic procrate and is almost always up. This in essense is what allows DW DK's to stack so much more of the BW stacks. When the sigil procs in a raid setting, I usually have about 31% dodge, so I have a much higher chance to dodge an attack than parry it, meaning that my stacks don't all get wiped constantly like a warrior or paladin who have much closer dodge and parry numbers. Usually about the time I start getting to 24% parry, (meaning I am now at over 64% total avoidance) is when the stacks will either fade and start over, or the proc will hit.

    My other benefit comes in the form of my pocket healer, a resto druid, who has that lovely talent on Wild Growth that gives me free RP. Can anyone say RS and FS out the ass?


    So there you go. its late and im tired. bask in the glory that is the blade ward enchant, just make sure you have a crapton of EXPT
    Last edited by Pwnanapuddin; 08-20-2009 at 11:29 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeges View Post
    I had somehow gotten it into my head that with Threat of Thassarian the offhand strike was affected by the offhand's damage (presumably also modified by Nerves of Cold Steel). I was testing between Last Laugh and the Infantry Assault Blade as an offhand. I could detect absolutely no difference in strike damage between the two.
    Let's look at why!

    Infantry Assault Blade
    237-440 dmg
    2.6 speed
    (+24 strength)

    Last Laugh
    192-357 dmg
    1.6 speed
    (+37 strength)

    If you have, say, 3k AP, then the *rough* damage of the two weapons will be:
    IAB = 696 dmg
    LL = 626 dmg

    Then apply the off-hand penalty:
    IAB = 348 dmg
    LL = 313 dmg

    The damage on strikes will be almost identical, small enough you won't notice a difference in scale. This is an old phenomena that Enhance shamans used to enjoy, a fast off-hand with instant weapon strikes could fail to out perform a slow weapon a tier or two higher. They also cared particularly about Windfury procs off white swings though, where as we only enjoy the increased 'white' dps after the instant swings.

    In this case, LL is still the better bet because it comes with other improvements in survival stats, and as you can see, the margin of difference in strike damage will be minimal.

    The take home lesson if you are instead comparing a 226 fast to a 219 slow weapon, is that the 219 slow may very well outperform...
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  14. #34
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    The Pwnstar Puddin, Now in a Fun Sized Goblin Shell.




  15. #35
    Awesome!

  16. #36
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    yes jay, very awesome. Only question I have left is how much more this will proc on a slower weapon set.
    The Pwnstar Puddin, Now in a Fun Sized Goblin Shell.




  17. #37
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    Moar testing required!

    Thanks for sharing Pwna =)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnanapuddin View Post
    yes jay, very awesome. Only question I have left is how much more this will proc on a slower weapon set.
    oh, the question i had in mind was how much gold i'd have to blow to get these enchants

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Let's look at why!

    (snip)

    In this case, LL is still the better bet because it comes with other improvements in survival stats, and as you can see, the margin of difference in strike damage will be minimal.

    The take home lesson if you are instead comparing a 226 fast to a 219 slow weapon, is that the 219 slow may very well outperform...
    You're right - I must've just been out in the tail of the distribution when I was seeing LL actually strike for harder than IAB. Statistics lesson: sometimes a couple hundred samples isn't enough.

    Swapping out LL for Aledar's Battlestar as offhand raised minimum strike damage consistently and across the board, and raised overall TPS by about 4%. Usually not worth the extra stamina and avoidance from a tanking piece - I think I will be sticking with fast/slow in almost all cases... Thanks, Satorri!

  20. #40
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    Are we going to keep this going?
    I have found some very nice gear that would help support this set. The 75 emblem helm (non-tier) is quite nice for a significant expertise boost.
    The Pwnstar Puddin, Now in a Fun Sized Goblin Shell.




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