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Thread: Tanks.. answer me this.

  1. #21
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    And again armor isn't here.
    We've got rings cloaks and necks with extra armor often making them a stronger choice in 80% of tanking situations then their non-amor (bit higher stamina) equivalents. Especially for shield tanks: armor makes your blocking stronger.

    Also: looking at current gear stats: it's often not a stamina vs avoidance but an avoidance vs threat/damage debate. The stamina is most often the same.

  2. #22
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    Larger hit point pools means more of a "pool" for healers to heal in to. Stam is indeed the best way to go for progression as a warrior, DK or Druid.. not so much for a pally, iirc its BV.
    Paladins gear identically to warriors for progression, and until 3.2.2 actually gain small amounts of threat from additional stamina due to their Touched by the Light talent (3.2.2 is removing this mechanic for PvP reasons). In fact, stamina stacking works better for a paladin because they have much better stamina scaling than a warrior. Block value is a pretty crappy stat that you take on a piece of gear if it's an upgrade in every other sense... if it has block rating on it too, it would have to be a huge upgrade for me to even consider it.

    Without wanting to create another thread discussing the tradeoffs between effective health and avoidance (note it's effective health that's important, not HP, where EH is a combination of HP with any damage reductions, armour for physical damage, stance modifiers etc) it's fair to say that at any gear level, assuming you prioritise the pieces of gear that maximise survival for a general progression set (avoidance > block stats, it's rarely the case that items at a given ilevel have vastly different stamina and there is literally only a handful that have extra armour) whatever choice you make is unlikely to have huge consequences. My personal preference is to choose avoidance heavy pieces and use stamina gems in blue/prismatic slots and hybrid avoidance/stam gems in others to make the socket bonus. Doing so probably loses me ~1k health relative to shoving a +30 stam gem in every socket, and my avoidance gear sees me lose about 4k raidbuffed health relative to my standard setup with two stam trinkets equipped.

    In fact, trinkets are probably the area where you'll see the most variation depending on what you equip, and so are perfect for switching around depending on the encounter. If you need threat, use a hit/expertise/strength trinket. If you're doing Vezax, and to an extent any other boss with either extremely slow or extremely fast swing speeds, you'll probably see more benefit from avoidance. To a certain extent this also applies for other gear pieces as well - learn the fights and switch around depending on what you're doing.

    One final comment:

    The removal of Crushing Blows makes EH much less important
    I'd actually argue that with avoidance being so high at the moment, and with current boss design being what it is, a lot of normal melee feels like a crushing blow, and certainly the special attacks do - there was even a blue post explaining the nerfs to avoidance on these grounds, that the developers were uncomfortable having to design encounters where the boss regularly hit for 60-70% of a tank's health. Whether they were talking about an avoidance tank's health or an effective health tank's health is another matter

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odwome View Post
    Up until this patch I was a super stam whore. I used to have about 35-36k unbuffed before 3.2 hit, since I would usually just stack stamina as much as I could, but I realized that I was gimping myself pretty hard.

    With the amount of stam I had, any additional stamina barely helped me out in terms of actual survival, since I could definitely take 2 hits from the harder-hitting bosses in uld, but no way would I survive 3 in a row without heals. At that point, I figured that adding more avoidance would be beneficial, since it would allow me to reduce the chance of taking 3 hits in a row, which was typically the only thing that would kill me (aside from obvious encounter-related mistakes).

    If your total avoidance is 55% (disregarding block for this example, trying to keep it simple), then you have a 45% chance to be hit once in a row, a 20.25% chance to be hit twice in a row, and 9.11% chance to be hit 3 times in a row. Increase that avoidance to 60%, and the numbers drop to 40%, 16%, and 6.4%, respectively.

    Assuming you're in a situation where you will always survive 2 hits in a row, and never 3 hits in a row (let's say your healers are lagging really hard >_>), then given those numbers, you would decrease your chance to die at any given moment from 9.11% to 6.4%, which is just about a 30% decrease.

    Let's carry this example further. Imagine you could increase your total avoidance to 65% after buffs. That would give you a 35% chance to be hit once, a 12.25% chance to be hit twice, and a 4.29% chance to be hit 3 times in a row. From the original value of 55% avoidance, this would be a decrease in your chance to die from any given string of attacks of approximately 53%.

    I got this interpretation of avoidance from Satorri's post in the theorycrafting forum which compares the different tanks. It made me realize that, when you base your evaluation of avoidance in this manner, you will see that increasing your avoidance DRASTICALLY increases your survival, much beyond the simple amount of damage from the attacks that you otherwise would not have avoided. Instead, it shows that avoidance's ability to reduce and spread out bursts of damage is its most important factor, not the averaged reduction of total damage taken.
    Thank you for this insightful post detailing the importance of balance between avoidance and stamina. So often I see tanks wearing nothing but straight stam gems, wasting their socket bonuses of dodge, parry, and otherwise, and watching them get their faces smashed in by strings of what they blame on "bad RNG luck". The growth of effectiveness of avoidance is clearly exponential, and can definitely be noticed more and more as both health pool and overall total avoidance increases.

    The key here is balance. If you can't survive 2 hits in a row without heals, you need more hp, because that happens quite often, and is nearly unavoidable in most circumstances (like it will probably happen in every boss fight at least once); whereas if you are easily surviving 2 hits, and almost a third, you are better off reducing that chance to receive the third hit as it will be more effective in the long run and probably easier to do than getting enough stam to soak that third hit.

    The other thing that comes to mind here for me is expertise rating and the parry-haste mechanic. If you can lower that chance to be parry-haste-pwnt by pumping your expertise rating up to the parry hard cap of 56, you can probably throw that into the balance of avoidance/hp, giving a third dynamic to consider. While expertise is not truly an avoidance stat it could certainly be considered a hybrid stat of both threat and avoidance when it comes to tanking. Someone would have to crunch the numbers and really peruse parses persistently to show the true effect but I bet the combination of threat+avoidance (albeit less avoidance than pure dodge/parry) that expertise gives really makes it a worthwhile stat to stack up to that hard cap.

  4. #24
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    When doing Ulduar hardmodes I can't see anything else than stacking stamina. Bosses like Thorim that hits harder and harder as fight progress, eventually oneshotting me thru 48k buffed unless I use a cooldown. Having 48k instead of 42k allows me to take the fight longer without using cooldowns and allows the raid more time to dps down the boss.

    As others posted we have alternate sets or parts thereof that we swap in
    for specific fights, still use 4-set tier8.5 for the bonus at some, more expertise/hit for others.

    My current set is the "all purpose" one if you check armory. 25% dodge 18% parry 23% block with 38500 unbuffed and almost capped hit and enough expertise to feel comfortable.

    I don't like gemming for avoidance, feels like it's not worth it, I however don't mind using gear part with lots of avoidance on from start. Want to keep a balance between health/avoid and threat.

  5. #25
    I agree with Odwome. Its more of a balance, and there is a practical break point.

    For me that's just over 40K health for the current content. Enough to survive 2 hits, and a little more to by healers time. (43-45K buffed)
    This should stop bad rng streaks and prevent instagibs.

    But if you gem for stam only, your nothing but a gimped bear...

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bouncelot View Post
    But if you gem for stam only, your nothing but a gimped bear...
    Agreed. Really gimped. Our bear has over 69k hp when he pops his CD and well over 60% dodge all the time. Diiiirtttyyyyyyyy!!!

  7. #27
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    Maybe i got spoiled by Brutallus back then, but i'm just waiting for another destructive boss to go back spamming full avoidance on the gear.

    For now i like balance and will always gem half and half. Being a mana sponge isn't useful.

  8. #28
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    I have always been an advocate of bringing cloths for all occasions. I think the first time I realized that you needed to have an avoidance set as well as a stam set was fighting Prince in Karazhan. While having an hp suit for progression is often preferred you have to look at the mechanics of the boss that you are fighting and make a decision based on said mechanics. Prince for example had an extremely high swing rate. IMO there was a significant disadvantage in simply having a boatload of stam. You take constant quick shots from Prince and what it boils down to, is that your heal core can stay ahead of the damage output Prince is laying down. If heals in do not exceed or equal damage out by Prince your raid will fail. Simply piling on more hp doesn't always promise a positive result in this instance. Avoidance however, the ability to completely not take damage, is extremely useful especially considering you take a debuff that increases damage done to you as a tank. That debuff does NOTHING if you aren't even taking damage.

    On the opposite side of the coin, bosses that hit like trucks with a slightly slower swing rate, require a stam advantage. It becomes more imparitive for you to be able to survive back to back hits, then it is for you to simply not get hit. The thinking behind this, imo, is that RNG is exactly what it says it is. Random. Even though your avoidance is 60%, there is a 40% chance for you to take a hit on one swing and again a second time (the statistics are actually completely wrong in this comment but I'd like to leave this post brief). The amount of uncertainty built into taking 2 back to back shots is high enough to make a stam set preferable.

    I also have some thoughts and opinions about how and avoidance set might be better if you have a weak heal core but I think that's a conversation for another thread.
    Execute for show, tank for dough.

  9. #29
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    i bounce alot between Solid and Regal gems, Solid if the socket bonus is like 6 stam or 6 def..

    Most of the gear now got alot avoidance allready, and as everyone else said.. Stam is there all the time.

    A healer mate of mine asked me why i stacked stam and not avoidance, i said to take more and higher hits, he asked me right after why take more hits and not avoide them.

    Guess its all up to theory crafting, and parse logs to find the final answer.

  10. #30
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    I've found that talents and alot of the new gear have bumped my dodge and parry up alot so that i can stack stam i have roughly 26% dodge and 18.5% parry unbuffed and sitting at 35k HP unbuffed rocking 2 stam trinkets and all 30 stam gems but the ones i need for my Meta bonus, As i see aslong as you got 25-26% dodge and 17% parry unbuffed stam stack cause some of the bosses do hit like mach trucks and haveing around 45k fully buffed does feel great when fightng progression fights

  11. #31
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    Bosses in crusade currently ignore our avoidance (23k headbutt + stun/impale 150% weapon damage + bleed etc).

    When the heroic version comes and even if they only get a +25% damage buff, they can easily do 50k spikes.

  12. #32
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    Too all of you that have taken the time to type out these points. I and we much appreciated it.. Thank you.


    I will stick to my guns.. But change alittle. Every Blue Socket and Pris socket is 30stam. But all my Red sockets are staying 10parry/15stam. My yellow (what tank likes these? are gunna stay my not needed.. but usefull 8Expert./8def for now.

    I am up to 32.1k with 56.10% avoid. this works for now. Since i have taken 2 months off i need to catch up.....

    also i would like to say.. Threat isnt an issue.. as I am a warrior tank. and mastered my rotation long ago. DEV..SB/HS dev Rev/HS, dev, dev. proc.. proc.. use on proc =) etc. with my spec... i can hover around 6-8k the whole fight. (SB and Dev being buffed a bit is nice)



    But again.. Thank you all vm for your time here.. it has helped alot

    cheers

    Last edited by Prototype; 08-17-2009 at 07:51 AM.

  13. #33
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    When you rock 37k unbuffed as an Undead warrior, you just feel awesome. (can get higher but I like to stay defense capped)
    Last edited by kavidius; 08-17-2009 at 08:27 AM.

  14. #34
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    I like Zivh's point regarding the practical breaking point where avoidance becomes preferable to effective health.

    1) If a boss's hit does >50% of your health, you're better off gearing for EH.
    2) If a boss's hit does <50% of your health, you're better off gearing for avoidance.

    For (1), the reasoning is that two hits back to back will kill you. Imagine you get two unavoided hits, where the second one was parry-hasted and occurred 0.4 seconds after the first. In this case, you would almost certainly die. Relying on avoidance to reduce the chance of 2-hit strings would require too much of your gear to be focused on avoidance, so the only option is to increase your EH such that you can no longer be killed in two hits.

    For (2), the reasoning is that you would only be able to be killed by strings of three or more unavoided hits in a row, during a lull in healing. Increasing your EH further does have beneficial aspects, in that a healer can lag behind a bit longer and still top you off in time. However, in the case that your healers are distracted a bit too long (blame the deeps), you will still die in only 3 hits, as you probably wouldn't be able to stack enough EH to make it past the breaking point into the realm of 4-hit chains. Because of this, it's a better idea (IMO) to reduce the chance you will get hit 3 times in a row, by focusing on avoidance in your gear.

    If anybody who is well-versed in theorycrafting and endgame raiding has any comments about the validity of what I have written in this post, I would be very interested to read them.

  15. #35
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    Health is a safe bet really, and also it helps people get into groups for things in my opinion, whenever i have looked to join a group the leader has always asked 'Hp?' rather than asking about avoidance.

  16. #36
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    Looks like people have mentioned pretty much everything I'd want to mention here. But I couldn't let this comment pass:

    Quote Originally Posted by orcstar View Post
    We've got rings cloaks and necks with extra armor often making them a stronger choice in 80% of tanking situations then their non-amor (bit higher stamina) equivalents. Especially for shield tanks: armor makes your blocking stronger.
    Excuse me, what? Unless you're assuming two or three jumps of logic on the part of the reader, that just plain doesn't follow.

    I agree that people should pay more attention to bonus armor items than they seem to, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with blocking.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  17. #37
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    I don't think stam-stacking is about taking 3 hits in a row without dying. If you take 3 hits in a row without a heal or tick of a hot, it's ultimately someone elses fault.

    For example, and we'll use this 3-hit method:
    1) Having 46k health buffed and being hit for 20k once, twice, healed for 16k from a holy light bringing you to 22k and surviving the third 20k hit in time for another healer or two to land a heal. 100% chance survival.
    2) Having 42k health buffed and being hit for 20k once, twice, healed for 16k from a holy light bringing you to 18k and dying on the third 20k hit (albiet small % assuming more avoidance than the above, it's still possible)

    All made up numbers, but I think this is the reality of the 3 hit rule.. besides, that third hit might not even be avoidable. There's plenty of magic damage floating about now.

    If know it's a purely physical fight, and you want to use your avoidance set, go ahead.. but using your high stam set works for everything. That's maybe why you see so many tanks using it. It's simple.

    As for sockets.. if you're gonna do parry/stam for your reds, you may as well do def/stam in the yellows. The alternative would be exp/stam for reds, hit/stam for yellows. Assuming you're gonna use different sets for different fights.

  18. #38
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    You can't dodge or parry a spell is what I've always gone by, so stacking stam is where it's at for me. With the way tank drops are going and having a couple of tanks in the guild I just don't have the option to have serious multiple sets, plus I'll be honest, I'm lazy .

    I have my all in one hard mode tanking set, my 4 piece bonus set for when I'm doing hodir/mimiron (which is gemmed for Sta, just a piece or two swapped to get the bonus) and then a ridiculous block (gemmed all str) set that I use for questing/dailies/heroic where I take almost zero damage because it's so ridiculous!

  19. #39
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    Just a quick chime in.....

    Before the patch, avoidance had a nasty habit of leaving a tank rage starved.... you get 2-3 dodges in a row and your healers love you.... but your dps gets pwnd because you lost aggro due to a lack of rage. Now, I believe we are getting rage on avoidance so that is less of an issue.... Back then, you didnt always want a boss to miss you.

    Having said that, there are times when you do for sure. Hodir comes to mind during frozen blows. A timely dodge/parry will reduce the amount of damage that is done to the whole raid.

    Finally, I believe that there is a bit of a showcase factor to the gear. Someone cant walk up to you and say "holy crap, you have 65% avoidance"! but they can walk up and say "holy crap, you have 36.2k unbuffed!!"

    I agree with most of the posts that you need a balance. But I stack stamina whenever I have an opportunity. The bigger the cushion for the healers, the better.
    Deeps for show..... tank for dough.....

  20. #40
    All great points here so far. Hit is important but you will do fine with around 200. You don't need to be capped. Like the others have said as well you get enough avoidence from the gear. Most float at 65% - 70% avoidence unbuffed. The only thing to add I have found that is sometimes lacking on tanking gear is expertise.

    -VD
    If you do not have any regrets then go out and get some.

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