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Thread: Paladin Tank

  1. #1
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    Paladin Tank

    I would like some feed back please on my spec and what enchant/gems. What would make me better in overall for our raid. Thanks noggy
    Here is armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory.
    Do I have to much stam and not enough other stats? I don't have an aggro issue but anyone can improve. I don't think I'm soft and not easy able to be killed.
    Last edited by noggy; 08-14-2009 at 12:50 PM.

  2. #2
    SPEC -
    Seals of the Pure in Holy tree isn't really worth it.
    Reckoning isn't really worth it.
    Divinity isn't really worth it.
    Divine Sacrifice is worth it for some OT situations, bad trash pulls etc, It's kind of an optional talent.

    I'd move your Divinity talents into getting Divine Sacrifice and Divine Guardian [2].
    Then if you took out the other talents i mentioned, you should have 13 left [D. Sac/ D Guard would be useful, and necessary for getting necessary prot talents to move on].

    I'd use them on either Greater Blessing of Might [x2] or Improved Judgements [x1] / Greater Might [x1]*
    Heart of the Crusader [x3],Vindication [x2], Pursuit of Justice [x2], Crusade [x3] and Conviction [x1]. This will increase your damage, and threat. I generally average between 1700 and 2200 dps.

    * Many Paladins will say take Imp. Judgments because a 9 sec CD judgment is necessary for the 6969 spell rotation to work perfectly, imo it's better used on the improved BoM, as there are situations when there are no ret pallys there, and imo the 1 sec wait for judgment isn't a big deal, but my opinion is definitley the underdog here, do as you see fit for that question.

    As for Enchants/ Gems, i'd use 22 Defense on your chest, basically more stats, though since you are D capped with no of-color gems, the health might be better, not a big deal. I would also do Armsman on your gauntlets. You might want to consider gemming for socket bonuses on +stam socket bonuses, you will get a little less stam probably, but you are wasting stats from the loss of the set bonus, Defense / Stam and Dodge / Stam add avoidance as well, and with the socket bonus of the stamina, you won't really lose that much stamina. Your dodge is very, very low, and your health is pretty high, so i would definitley try and get some more avoidance.

    Overall you are pretty fine, you can do a lot more threat with a talent change though,
    and you are a lil low on avoidance imo.

  3. #3
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    I really wish people wouldn't be so firm in their advice. It's all an opinion at the end of the day..

    Quote Originally Posted by Darthmullet View Post
    SPEC -
    Seals of the Pure in Holy tree isn't really worth it.
    Reckoning isn't really worth it.
    Divinity isn't really worth it.
    Divine Sacrifice is worth it for some OT situations, bad trash pulls etc, It's kind of an optional talent.

    I'd move your Divinity talents into getting Divine Sacrifice and Divine Guardian [2].
    Then if you took out the other talents i mentioned, you should have 13 left [D. Sac/ D Guard would be useful, and necessary for getting necessary prot talents to move on].

    I'd use them on either Greater Blessing of Might [x2] or Improved Judgements [x1] / Greater Might [x1]*
    Heart of the Crusader [x3],Vindication [x2], Pursuit of Justice [x2], Crusade [x3] and Conviction [x1]. This will increase your damage, and threat. I generally average between 1700 and 2200 dps.

    * Many Paladins will say take Imp. Judgments because a 9 sec CD judgment is necessary for the 6969 spell rotation to work perfectly, imo it's better used on the improved BoM, as there are situations when there are no ret pallys there, and imo the 1 sec wait for judgment isn't a big deal, but my opinion is definitley the underdog here, do as you see fit for that question.
    General consensus so far is that Seals of the Pure is not as good as the ret talents, but that was BEFORE they upped Vengeance Damage. I haven't seen anybody theorycraft/test and document new changes. Same goes with reckoning. I'd argue with a slow weapon+ vengeance changes, reckoning becomes more attractive. If you can provide evidence (your own or reference), please do not bring up old assumptions just after a patch which changes the conditions.

    Divinity is a filler. Same with Divine Sacrifice. As a new tank I would take Divinty over Divine Sacrifice, to increase my survivability. Imp Devo is another filler, since it doesnt stack with Resto Druids Tree aura, and the armor bonus isn't worth 3 talent points. Yet we take it to access the later talents.

    It's been beaten to death, 96969 rotation is the best, every paladin needs to nail that well. And the only way to do it is to have one point in imp judgments. Two is considered a waste, and I would agree, Benediction and heart of the crusader are much better Talents. You can skip Heart of the Crusader with certain classes (another ret, a rogue, etc.). Imp Might is needed only if you don't have a talented warrior or ret paladin in the raid. You bring sanc to the table of 4+ paladins, and if there are less, you are the first to get relegated to Kings.

    With the new changes to vindication, you may or may not want to get that. Many ret paladins will continue to spec into it.

    Pursuit of Justice is situational, I never use it, but if I need the speed I throw on boots with Tuskarr's Enchant rather than spend 2 talent points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darthmullet View Post
    As for Enchants/ Gems, i'd use 22 Defense on your chest, basically more stats, though since you are D capped with no of-color gems, the health might be better, not a big deal. I would also do Armsman on your gauntlets. You might want to consider gemming for socket bonuses on +stam socket bonuses, you will get a little less stam probably, but you are wasting stats from the loss of the set bonus, Defense / Stam and Dodge / Stam add avoidance as well, and with the socket bonus of the stamina, you won't really lose that much stamina. Your dodge is very, very low, and your health is pretty high, so i would definitley try and get some more avoidance.

    Overall you are pretty fine, you can do a lot more threat with a talent change though,
    and you are a lil low on avoidance imo.
    Here's where I agree more with Darthmullet. At your gear level, 22 def drops off as something to look at, you should really go with 10 stats instead. 275 health is not optimal given our huge stamina bonuses by talents.

    If threat is not an issue than don't worry about it! If it becomes an issue, you are really low on hit/expertise (hit soft cap at 263, expertise soft cap at 26), start with those first. Regardless, 18 stam is really horrible, go with either 20 hit or armsman even if your threat is fine.

    At the end of the day, if you have no issues, there is no such thing as "too much stam", and you do have respectable numbers on a stam perspective, for all that your avoidance is not as high as some would like because of it. Another way to put it, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Your first major improvement is spec, focus on that while browsing this site, then look at your rotation.

  4. #4
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    Why would Benediction be better when its just reduces mana cost for instant spells?

  5. #5
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    /bump
    "serious walnut- crunching ass power" from: Merry Christmas, Bob, By Chris Shugart

  6. #6
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    ... *scratches head* I caught you in holy gear so I can't comment on your gear, but this is the general build I suggest, which is very close to what you already have.

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    Glyphs of: Seal of Vengeance, Divine Plea, Judgement.

    I can't see your gems or enchants, so I won't comment to those until you update armory.

  7. #7
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    I'm sorry about logging out in my healing gear. I got back into my tanking gear.

  8. #8
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    No prob.

    You're honestly looking fairly good. I prefer agi over dodge rating for my purple gems, and I avoid block gear like the plague, but you seem to be ok. I think your armor is a pinch low and I think you should be ditching gear with BV on it in favor of armor/stam/avoidance at moments of convenience (Don't go crazy farming for them or downgrade to them.)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    General consensus so far is that Seals of the Pure is not as good as the ret talents, but that was BEFORE they upped Vengeance Damage. I haven't seen anybody theorycraft/test and document new changes. Same goes with reckoning. I'd argue with a slow weapon+ vengeance changes, reckoning becomes more attractive. If you can provide evidence (your own or reference), please do not bring up old assumptions just after a patch which changes the conditions.
    There's a large discussion over on Maintankadin with some MATLAB analysis done by Theck that backs all this up, though I can't link it just now as I'm at work and can't get on the site. Against many Ulduar mobs, SotP+Reckoning comes out marginally ahead in TPS but against Demons, Undead, Humanoids and Beasts ("DUH" in the analysis post) 3/3 Crusade is far suprior. As DUH makes up the majority of 3.2 content, 3/3 Crusade is still optimal for Tier 9 and the fringe benefits of SotP in Ulduar are not necessarily worth it if you're tanking both. For reference this was tested with both Titanguard and Broken Promise. Of course a slow DPS weapon like Hellscream Slicer works better with the new SoV but that's a lot of sacrifice elsewhere just for a threat boost in my opinion. I'd only consider SotP if I was going down to Improved Lay on Hands for a high-survival build, but few tanks do this outside of new progression content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Divinity is a filler. Same with Divine Sacrifice. As a new tank I would take Divinty over Divine Sacrifice, to increase my survivability.
    While it may save your life occasionally, it usually ends up giving you little more than 5% extra overheal. Yes it's a survivability talent but I don't personally agree that it's an effective use of five talent points. I might take it if it only cost two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Imp Devo is another filler, since it doesnt stack with Resto Druids Tree aura, and the armor bonus isn't worth 3 talent points.
    The armor bonus is a huge amount of mitigation and while it doesn't stack with the Druid aura I'd still sooner know it was always up. Armor is a vital part of survivability and having Devotion Aura up will almost always enhance survivability over Divinity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Pursuit of Justice is situational, I never use it, but if I need the speed I throw on boots with Tuskarr's Enchant rather than spend 2 talent points.
    Well it effectively comes down to whether you feel two talent points are worth 7 Stamina, assuming you want the run speed bonus. I personally find it very useful (picking up the infernals on Jaraxxus, kiting Hodir to a spotlight for the melee, getting away from Laser Barrage, etc) as it allows me a split second longer to do what it is I'm doing but, as you say, it's a matter of personal preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    Here's where I agree more with Darthmullet. At your gear level, 22 def drops off as something to look at, you should really go with 10 stats instead. 275 health is not optimal given our huge stamina bonuses by talents.
    10 All Stats is sub-optimal as there's a lot of wasted iLevel budget on stats he doesn't use, such as Int. In my opinion 22 Defense is still best even far above the defense minimum as it adds to all your avoidance stats and you'd need quite a significant amount of both dodge and parry (possibly more than is available from Tier 8 gear) before the diminishing returns got too great to make it viable. Super Health is the best in terms of raw EH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    If threat is not an issue than don't worry about it! If it becomes an issue, you are really low on hit/expertise (hit soft cap at 263, expertise soft cap at 26), start with those first. Regardless, 18 stam is really horrible, go with either 20 hit or armsman even if your threat is fine.
    You get more threat per point of Strength than Hit or Expertise, even if you are below the caps for them. Not that +20 Hit is bad for threat but he needn't start stacking Hit or Expertise to up his threat. +18 Stam is far worse on an iLevel budget basis but is again the only option for EH if you don't have Engineering. You may also wish to consider Agility on gloves for avoidance, a little EH and a little threat.

  10. #10
    General consensus so far is that Seals of the Pure is not as good as the ret talents, but that was BEFORE they upped Vengeance Damage. I haven't seen anybody theorycraft/test and document new changes. Same goes with reckoning. I'd argue with a slow weapon+ vengeance changes, reckoning becomes more attractive. If you can provide evidence (your own or reference), please do not bring up old assumptions just after a patch which changes the conditions.

    You are correct I did not do research on that, so I may be wrong, however this is my line of reasoning.

    15% on SoV dot and judgment vs 3% extra dmg and 2% extra crit on ALL abilities [if you moved those 5 talents to crusade/ conviction, which you should have available since you will probably have ret talents anyway]. The majority of our threat/dmg is coming from non-judgement affects. HotR, SotR, Consecration, Holy Shield, they are all affected by the ret talents, just seems better to me.

    as for Reckoning, I hate proc abilities for tanking, so that gives it a bad taste to me to start out with, then you see it gives you a few more weapon attacks. How much of our threat is weapon damage? Something like less than 10% i'm guessing, though once again I can't prove that. Just try tanking without actually wacking them with your weapon, then try without using HotR, see which you like more

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