Remove 1-Handed Tanking Weapons from WoW

[Gnurken]

Check out the new Crusader items, lots of them have plenty defense on. With a few drops, like the chest and pants from the first bosses you should be fine dropping tanking weapon and picking a dps one instead.

Problem is that most new weapons are 2.6s speed and not 1.6s so the number of choices is not increasing that much if you wanna keep a fast weapon.

Could also argue that the buffed devastate in the patch makes more appealing to
try a slower weapon for more devastate dmg, assuming you can keep rage up from
inc dmg.

[Lenox]

I keep seeing mention that what keeps people from using a dps weapon to tank currently is the defense requirements. This is only part of the picture. There is no maximum survivability a tank needs. More is always better. The reason that a tank would not currently want to use a dps weapon to tank is because of the survivability stats that they would be giving up by not using a tanking weapon, regardless of whether or not you can easily maintain the crit immunity defense requirement. Stop saying that. It's a bad argument. Of course we can re-gem and re-enchant to make up for the defense. But you cannot make up the stamina or usual avoidance stat that a tanking weapon has. And even if you could with gems and enchants, what you give up to do so defeats the whole purpose, because you probably had to give something up just to fit that dps weapon in currently.

Another point, Blizz specifically hasn't put in a prevalent tanking weapon enchant on purpose. I don't see it as too far fetched to move to a druid / death knight design, by where you are balanced around using a dps weapon to tank.

And in terms of the continuous streamlining of stats and gear, mp5 and spirit is next. You can't stop homogenization. It WILL continue to happen. All we can hope to do is voice our concerns as it happens and try to give good enough feedback that we help sway the direction it takes.

[Mofotrey]

Blizzard can't even create new content, a la Naxxramas, Onyxia, etc. does WotLK stand for Wrath of the Lich King or Wheeee oh thrill, Lets Keepdoingthesameraids? ... The least they can do is churn out itemized gear for each role.
I like tanking weapons, even though Titansguard never drops and I always lose Last Laugh to an offspec asshole or an offtank bitch when PUGing Naxx.

Obviously my suggestion was made in jest, in case anyone believes I meant it, just as my suggestion to make every piece of gear in game was with the 3.2 change of having everything drop conquest badges and making the whole t9 set buyable with badges.

[Lenox]

Blizzard can't even create new content, a la Naxxramas, Onyxia, etc. does WotLK stand for Wrath of the Lich King or Wheeee oh thrill, Lets Keepdoingthesameraids? ... The least they can do is churn out itemized gear for each role.
I like tanking weapons, even though Titansguard never drops and I always lose Last Laugh to an offspec asshole or an offtank bitch when PUGing Naxx.

Obviously my suggestion was made in jest, in case anyone believes I meant it, just as my suggestion to make every piece of gear in game was with the 3.2 change of having everything drop conquest badges and making the whole t9 set buyable with badges.

You just proved my point. Streamlining tanking weapons creates less work for Blizzard long-term. Think about it.

And I took no offense to the "Awesomeness Rating" idea. This is my first MMO, and while I've been with WoW since January 2005, I really don't understand the fear with homogenization.

[drae]

Homogenization removes distinction and choices. It lowers the ability to min/max. It removes customization.

In all the areas mentioned of previous homogenization it was a good idea. IE idols, class tier loot etc. Because a ton of it was being sharded.

Tank weapons rarely get sharded. And Blizzard doesn't need less work; they make a metric %$@ton of money.


There is a maximum survivability. Think of heroics and old raids as examples. If I'm in a heroic I almost ALWAYS use a 1h DPS weapon, mainly because they are slower and the way deep wounds and tab-devastate works. and hell the 200 hp and .5% parry I lose is nothing. With my sbv set on tanking trash in Naxx I take next to no damage... why the hell shouldn't I contribute to DPS and increase my AOE TPS? Hell in TBC a regularly employed gearing strat was enough EH to survive 2 or 3 hits in a row, (bad non-avoidance strings) and then Threat Threat Threat.

There is most definitely a survival cap; just not when tanking bosses that actually hurt.

[phaze]

Homogenization removes distinction and choices. It lowers the ability to min/max. It removes customization.

This doesn't make sense WRT this discussion.

Let's look at 1H maces, axes, swords. Right now, Ulduar has 4 tank 1Hers, 11 dps 1Hers. Converting tank weapons to DPS weapons results in both tanks and DPSers having a choice of 15 weapons.

By your definition this is better for choice, min/maxing, and customization.

In all the areas mentioned of previous homogenization it was a good idea. IE idols, class tier loot etc. Because a ton of it was being sharded.

Tank weapons rarely get sharded.

Eh? I see tank weapons sharded all the time. The one or two Warrior/Pally tanks already have theirs, and no one else wants them. And this is considering the few tank weapons that actually do drop (designed that way because of this situation). I've seen this occur since at least BC, which is when the current setup was really started (welcome to tanking, Paladins!).

This type of weapon is just too narrowly focused: 2 specs out of the 30 in game are interested in tank swords/axes/maces. 1 spec in the game wants the tank guns.

By your example, this would be a good change: you say the old class tier sets were too specific of a drop (1 in 8). That's better usage than tank weapons (1 in 15).

It all goes back to loot table depth. When there are too many specialized items that have a chance to drop, you often end up with items that no one wants (either that class/spec isn't present, or they already have it). This leads to excessive sharding of specific types. If we can tweak some things to reduce that problem, then I say it's worth it.

[drae]

...I really don't understand the fear with homogenization.

This was the ground for my comment regarding homogenization, imho it is within the context of this discussion. I fear homogenization because I believe it removes choices.

Removing tank weapons would remove our ability to min/max because we wouldn't have the choice of tanking weapons... the depth of the loot table would be shrunk (in regards to the stats available, not necessarily the number of items); there may be 11 dps weapons, and only 4 tank weapons, that's a choice of 1 out of 15... with a greater variety of stats to choose from then if we only had 15 DPS type weapons. Tanks aren't limited to tanking 1h'ers. We can, and I know some who do, use DPS ones for tanking in appropriate situations. I'm not against using DPS weapons for tanking, I'm just saying don't LIMIT me to only DPS weapons IF I want more survival stats.

and well the comment regarding only 2 specs using 1h tank weapons is moot, as only one spec uses spell plate, and it's in the game, sets and sets of it.

In my experience tank weapons aren't sharded often, perhaps in your they are.. such is the wonder of RNG. Don't forget dual spec, Or representation, there are far more pally and warrior tanks then druids and DK's (who may also should they choose dual wield; even if it does suck).

Also consider there are only really 2 "tanking" guns worth mentioning, and one is crafted... not even a drop.

A more appropriate fix maybe to adjust the drop rates.

[Insahnity]

Check out the new Crusader items, lots of them have plenty defense on. With a few drops, like the chest and pants from the first bosses you should be fine dropping tanking weapon and picking a dps one instead.

Problem is that most new weapons are 2.6s speed and not 1.6s so the number of choices is not increasing that much if you wanna keep a fast weapon.

Could also argue that the buffed devastate in the patch makes more appealing to
try a slower weapon for more devastate dmg, assuming you can keep rage up from
inc dmg.

Speaking as a tankadin, I use a 2.6 DPS sword for tanking. I can manage to stay def capped through gemming, and the return is that I get awesome HotR and now better Venegeance(or Corruption for the Hordies). Yes, it doesn't have defense, I dont mind. Yes it doesn't have quite as much stamina, which I DO mind, but I live with it. I do gain more threat and some agi to boot which is nice.

Some things should be homogenized, like tanking guns being considered like idols/sigils/librams, obtained through crafting or badges, as drops for that are a bad idea. At least if a hunter doesnt want it, a gun can go to a rogue or dps warrior, but a tanking weapon is pretty darned limited. Besides with Heroic Throw, some warriors use it as a stats stick, which devs cringe at, but it's a problem of their own making.

Tanking weapons disappearing? I would prefer not, but it is liveable without. A compromise would be to make weapons with multiple gem slots, likely yellow and blue ones, instead of single socket ones, and tanky type socket bonuses like stam. I mean surely a 4 foot Sword/Mace/Axe has SOME space to handle more than on gem? By allowing more than one gem slot, you can make it viable enough for tanks to have sufficient tanking stats added in afterwards, but still appealing enough that it isn't sharded while DPS suffers. A good Loot Council/Master Looter should be able to spot the potential to preferentially loot them to tanks.

Slow vs Fast? More 2.6 weapons are good, until tanking is tweaked a bit more. Some of the consequences:
-HS for warriors is always buffed for this
-Paladins MAY revert back to speccing Reckoning with the new Vengeance/Corruption changes.
-DKs are geared towards slow 2H weapon, without trying any math my gut tells me a DW 2 slow handers will be a good thing as DK attacks are parry hasted by the boss.
-*Bear looks strangely at the 1H weapon in confusion*

[Ateve]

No one has brought up the direct analogue of druid staves and hunter stat sticks?

An item only one spec could use, so they changed it so that they were good for druid/hunters and war/dk/pally to an extent.

This went through with minimal effort and i know my druid loves the change of having more items available. I think this would be good for tanking, as I sat around with red sword of courage for a very, very long time without seeing any other tank weapons drop.

[KnThrak]

I don't know.
Since Druids share their items with Hunters now, that part is solved.
I'd much rather see them move DK Tanking to DW, adding a passive ability that the offhand can't be parried, and by that making more use of the existant 1H Tanking Weapons, and being able to add more in the future.

But that's just me. :x

[Petninja]

Homogenization removes distinction and choices. It lowers the ability to min/max. It removes customization.

In all the areas mentioned of previous homogenization it was a good idea. IE idols, class tier loot etc. Because a ton of it was being sharded.

Relics aren't homogenized. They just stuck them on the badge vendors so we don't have to deal with them dropping.

Homogenization does one thing that everyone always looks away from: It removes the gear emphasis. Man what a game this would be if we didn't have to deal with gear sets. I personally don't actually see how gear is fun. It's a great reward because it makes your character better, but wearing gear isn't fun. In a game where gear wasn't a big deal more emphasis would be placed on skill. People wouldn't be better players because they know 24 other people who are driven by progression. Gear is nice because you don't have to know what you're doing so well so long as you have the gear for it. That's really about it.

[phaze]

No one has brought up the direct analogue of druid staves and hunter stat sticks?

An item only one spec could use, so they changed it so that they were good for druid/hunters and war/dk/pally to an extent.

Death Knights and Paladins can't use Staves. Now that Druids are allowed the use of Polearms, I'm hoping the itemization team will be phasing out Physical DPS Staves in favor of Polearms. That's a weapon type that is available to all 5 of the classes you mentioned.

Another weapon type that has been phased out: healing 2H Maces. This has been shifted to more 1H Maces for the sake of Priest itemization.

[Mofotrey]

You just proved my point. Streamlining tanking weapons creates less work for Blizzard long-term. Think about it.

And I took no offense to the "Awesomeness Rating" idea. This is my first MMO, and while I've been with WoW since January 2005, I really don't understand the fear with homogenization.

As much money as Blizzard is making... they deserve to be doing MORE work. Think of how much more work they did back in Vanilla WoW when they were making less than a third of the money they're making now.

If I'm paying them $15 a month I expect them to NOT be lazy asses and give me five pieces of loot that look the exact same and only two difference kinds of gear; for melee and casters.

They already eliminated healing gear. They already eliminated druid weapons. They've eliminated PLENTY. I'm glad the Awesomeness idea doesn't offend you, that's just showing you the extreme at which Blizzard is on the way towards coming to. Ultimately if you take the homogenization idea to its full extent that's what you get.

This type of weapon is just too narrowly focused: 2 specs out of the 30 in game are interested in tank swords/axes/maces. 1 spec in the game wants the tank guns.

And? I haven't seen Titansguard drop a single time. Tank weapons aren't exactly flowing from an abundant river here.

[phaze]

As much money as Blizzard is making... I'm paying them $15 a month ... [doom and gloom that] Blizzard is on the way towards coming to.

Well you certainly hit on all the main trolling points.

This type of weapon is just too narrowly focused: 2 specs out of the 30 in game are interested in tank swords/axes/maces. 1 spec in the game wants the tank guns.

And? I haven't seen Titansguard drop a single time. Tank weapons aren't exactly flowing from an abundant river here.

I'd recommend reading the reasons for the suggestion, then.

[Mofotrey]

Well you certainly hit on all the main trolling points.

I try my best That's why I'm perma-banned from the WoW forums...

I'd recommend reading the reasons for the suggestion, then.

I disagree with the reasons. While yes, it'd be easier to get weapons, it takes the itemization out, as has already been mentioned in this thread, and I like the fact that there are a few tank weapons to be watching for and praying for one to drop...

Gear is easy as hell to get. It's boring. At least with rare tank weapons you can't walk up to a boss and have them fall at your feet, you have to have some luck, too.

[phaze]

While yes, it'd be easier to get weapons, it takes the itemization out, as has already been mentioned in this thread

This is incorrect. The goal of this suggestion is not to reduce the number of drops from bosses; that doesn't need to change. The goal is to change some of these drops to be more useful to more classes/specs. As the earlier example mentions: merging the 4 tank 1Hers and 11 dps 1Hers would allow a choice of 15 weapons for both tanks and dps.

I like the fact that there are a few tank weapons to be watching for and praying for one to drop...

Then why are you complaining about their drop rate in the previous post?

[Mofotrey]

This is incorrect. The goal of this suggestion is not to reduce the number of drops from bosses; that doesn't need to change. The goal is to change some of these drops to be more useful to more classes/specs. As the earlier example mentions: merging the 4 tank 1Hers and 11 dps 1Hers would allow a choice of 15 weapons for both tanks and dps.


Then why are you complaining about their drop rate in the previous post?

Only then you don't have the itemization. What would wind up happening is the ones would the most stamina and agility would be the 'tank' 1Hers and it'd be the same thing as we have now in terms of who wants what only with less actual itemization which just makes it worse.

And I wasn't complaining, I was refuting the notion someone made that tank weapons are being sharded left and right because nobody needs them.

[Insahnity]

No one has brought up the direct analogue of druid staves and hunter stat sticks?

Just to clarify Druids are no longer stat sticks, as the Weapon damage gets turned into Feral Attack Power. The only part not used is weapon swing speed, everything else is utilized. In the past, you could do 1 DPS for all bears cared, as long as it had lots of agi, stam (and in the old days, defense).
The same is not so true for hunters. In a raid situation they never melee, so it is a stat stick for them still.

[phaze]

Looks like Cataclysm will be doing a lot of stat merging, to better streamline the game.

This not only applies to tanking stats on gear, but healing stats, and dps stats. Expect a lot more interchangeable gear options in the future, for each of the roles.

[Lenox]

Looks like Cataclysm will be doing a lot of stat merging, to better streamline the game.

This not only applies to tanking stats on gear, but healing stats, and dps stats. Expect a lot more interchangeable gear options in the future, for each of the roles.

You beat me to it. I guess Blizzard is doing what I had hoped and then some. Yay Blizz!