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Thread: 3.2 DK Specs

  1. #1

    3.2 DK Specs

    I've made 5 specs for blood and frost and am curious to see what tankspot thinks of them.

    Blood:

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    Frost

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    Any advice questions or criticism is welcome.
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  2. #2
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    About blood: there is no real reason to go for annihilation; improved death strike make at least as much tps than Obliterate, more if you got enough heal out of it. For the last one, I dont think nÚcrosis is a good idea for a tank, you will get more threat with subversion.

    Btw there is nothing really new about blood for 3.2 (exept the nerf VotW but it just make it less good) so any other blood discution (like sartorri's thread) is still viable.

    About frost, I dont see many reason to go frost and not dual.

  3. #3
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    I can't speak to the blood builds, as I haven't been blood in ages. But I can give some feedback on the frost builds.

    Improved Icy Touch - You haven't taken a full 3/3 points in either build. Even if you're determined not to go down and get Icy Talons you should max this out, the attack speed debuff on bosses is a major foundation of tanking mitigation (or if you for some reason refuse to max it, don't take any points and make sure you always have someone else in the raid to provide the debuff for you).

    Icy Reach - Isn't really useful for a tanking build.

    Morbidity - I know some people get this, but I still think it's a waste of points for Frost. The Death Coil part of the talent is completely useless (even nerfed Frost Strike is almost strictly better than Death Coil), and thanks to HB, Frost's aoe threat is good enough that you can pretty much leave D&D out of the rotation entirely. I find the only time I use it is at the beginning of pulls where positioning makes it hard to pick mobs up efficiently with HB and/or Pest. The only fights I've encountered where I'd want a shorter D&D cd is Arena-tanking on Thorim and whelp/add tanking multi-drake Sarth.

    Hungering Cold/Deathchill/Merciless Combat - I can see the argument for these, but I don't personally think they're worth the points. Deathchill is snap aggro for a spec that rarely needs it. Merciless Combat is additional threat at the end of a fight where I normally have a 20-30% threat lead on the closest dps. And Hungering Cold is cc/disease spreading for a spec that has other options (pestilence, HB glyph) and additionally is often unuseable at the start of pulls because of the RP cost.

    If you do take points out of those talents, other things you might want to consider are: Chill of the Grave, Icy Talons/Imp Icy Talons, Virulence, Epidemic, and Acclimation.
    Last edited by Fathom; 08-11-2009 at 12:06 PM. Reason: Took out a comment on DW, since it's was just personal opinion I can't support at the moment.

  4. #4
    Your 1st 2 blood builds are not very good, annihilation is a useless talent for blood tanks but your 3rd build sparks promise. Drop Imp BP and DRW (both useless for a tank) and but them into SoB for more RP gen, one thing your not going to want is to be RP starved for those ever so important Runestrikes.

    And and in terms of frost simply DO NOT consider DW!

    <4

  5. #5
    Deathchill is extremely questionable for tanks, yes. It even is for DPS. It's not that it ain't good, it's just too weak for a point in a tree with plenty other options. It has uses mostly in PvP, and in the very rare situation where it absolutely positively matters you start with humongous AE threat. But then how often does that happen?

    The alternative - IMO - is Hungering Cold. It is extremely rarely useful just as is Deathchill, but at least when it is useful it provides a unique mechanic which cannot be matched, unless you actually bought Chillblains and glyph-HB into a group. Brings me to the second problem with it, it needs to be glyphed to be useful.

    So it's a decision which ain't an easy one. If you can spare the slot I'd definitely go for HC and glyph it, since it will eventually end up being the button which saves you, your group or your raid. If you can't spare the glyph slot, Deathchill is a better choice, as rarely as you'll end up noticing it.

    The ultimate answer is ofc Deathchill + Chillblains + Glyphed HB, but if you got that many points spare I envy you. :P
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  6. #6
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    I never take Deathchill. a 2-minute cooldown that just gives you a crit? It's only real use is for snap aoe aggro with howling blast, but you shouldn't *need* this ability to keep aoe threat anyway. it's a crutch at best, and on far too long of a cooldown to lean on in any consistent way.

    my current tanking spec:

    The World of Warcraft Armory

    the new scent of blood works very well with DW. bladed armor is a must for threat imo. I don't take acclimation because it's too situational (requires rapid consistent magic damage to be effective), although before ToTh i was spec'ing it.

  7. #7
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    Actually, I'd say Deathchill is more valuable for tanks than dps. In respectable dps gear you can have a metric ton of crit chance, which compounded with Killing Machine can make it tricky to find the right time to slip it in (though it does bump your damage nice, especially when you want to focus a burst down).

    For a tank, it allows a crit-on-demand. That is a very valuable tool for threat being able to lay a pulse when you need/want it most. I'm a big fan of Deathchilling HB's to surge ahead at the start of an aoe pull, or Deathchilling a well timed OB once you have your foundation set to pull ahead on a boss.

    Remember, threat is as much a matter of when you apply, as how much.
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    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonnamefail View Post
    And and in terms of frost simply DO NOT consider DW!
    Why? DW does more damage (as frost), got (more) tank stats; if you are saying this because of parry-haste, well... feel free.

  9. #9
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    Dual wield tanking is possible, viable, doable, and not stupid or unduly hazardous.

    I can't say it more plainly. Look for the pages on pages in previous threads discussing the math, or take it from the portion of the community that does it. It's really not the big deal a lot of people make it out to be.
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    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #10
    I would strongly argue a DW frost tank doing more damage than myself on anything bar trash and possibly Hodir, although I don't have a foot to stand on to support it (i.e. proof). The parry hasting math has been done on EJ, i'll leave you at your own devices.

    It is an ultimate source of mitigation though!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Dual wield tanking is possible, viable, doable, and not stupid or unduly hazardous.

    I can't say it more plainly. Look for the pages on pages in previous threads discussing the math, or take it from the portion of the community that does it. It's really not the big deal a lot of people make it out to be.
    It's doable definitely, whether it's an improvement over 2h tanking is much more up in the air though.

    If the OP is interested in pursuing it, he should take into account:

    a) It requires heavier talent investment (NoCS and ToT are 6 points you can't use elsewhere), which means you won't have as many options for other utility/survival/threat talents.

    b) A tanking build won't have the points to spare in unholy or blood to exploit the two weapons the way dw dps builds do.

    c) You'll have to either choose between slow dps 1hs, that will play similar to 2h tanking except you've invested additional talent points, or fast tanking 1hs, which will give let you exploit the additional tank stats but will drop a significant chunk of threat.

    None of that's insurmountable, but in the end, it's all about trade offs.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Fathom View Post
    It's doable definitely, whether it's an improvement over 2h tanking is much more up in the air though.
    ^^^^

    This, also why do people want to invoke more parry hasting?? Is there some insane desire to actually have a boss kill you in under 1s?? If thats the case just tank in blood presence!

  13. #13
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    ^^^ successful DW tank. Does not die to parry-haste or hamper dps with poor threat.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyd View Post
    ^^^ successful DW tank. Does not die to parry-haste or hamper dps with poor threat.
    We definitely don't need another thread on dual-wield tanking. If you are doing Naxx, or any part of Ulduar up to Mimiron you can DW tank, UH tank, ghetto spec with VOTtW and Bone Shield or whatever.

    If you are doing hard modes, or your guild is trying progression (I don't mean global progression, but personal progression) I strongly recommend trying a cookie cutter blood build and stacking stamina as this will provide your healers with the room for error they need while learning new bosses.

    -As a side note Deathchill should be included in your offspec aoe build if that is what you use your offspec for. Deathchill - glyphed HB - BB - BB.

  15. #15
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    Cookie cutter builds and methods don't make for good tanks, they make for blind followers. Blind followers do not genuinely succeed until the player makes the play style their own.

    There's no point at which Dual Wield tanking magically stops working. Hard Modes add one consideration to tanking that is not usually considered: damage output. High damage from the tank makes it easier. Otherwise you're just making sure you survive against a step up in damage. Dual Wield Frost offers the potential of more damage than 2h Frost.

    You're right though, we don't need another thread full of people who have never dual wield tanked anything (or tried successfully) trying to tell others that dual wield tanking doesn't work.

    If you haven't done it, keep your opinions to yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Dual Wield Frost offers the potential of more damage than 2h Frost.
    In a tanking build? Did this come up somewhere in the DW tanking thread?

    (not trying to restart the discussion, but this doesn't intuitively follow for me, and isn't what I've seen in personal tests, so if there's some evidence someone could point me to so I can have a look at it, I'd appreciate it)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Cookie cutter builds and methods don't make for good tanks, they make for blind followers. Blind followers do not genuinely succeed until the player makes the play style their own.

    There's no point at which Dual Wield tanking magically stops working. Hard Modes add one consideration to tanking that is not usually considered: damage output. High damage from the tank makes it easier. Otherwise you're just making sure you survive against a step up in damage. Dual Wield Frost offers the potential of more damage than 2h Frost.

    You're right though, we don't need another thread full of people who have never dual wield tanked anything (or tried successfully) trying to tell others that dual wield tanking doesn't work.

    If you haven't done it, keep your opinions to yourself.
    This was a very agressive response, my above post was not meant to be offensive. You bring up three points worth discussing:

    - cookie cutter builds make for blind followers: Yes, I have no argument here, this is worthy advice for any aspiring tank. What I like about Suno's thread is that (if you have the patience to read the pages) you can extract reasoning for why many of the choices were made. Cookie-cutter specs are not the ONLY specs, but they are cookie-cutter for a reason.

    - If you agree that effective health is the most advantageous way to approach progression content (I concede not everyone agrees with this and I don't want to get into an avoidance vs EH argument), then the RNG of parry-hasting is an extreme disadvantage.

    - I have not tried dual-wield tanking, and likely never will. The fact that my argument doesn't have anecdotal evidence from "this one time I DW tanked and it sucked" or WWS parses doesn't invalidate it.

  18. #18
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    The RNG of parry-hasting is an overblown relic of a time when parry-haste could be coupled with Crushing Blows. There is more recent math that puts the typical tank with soft-capped expertise in little noticeable difference for parry-haste damage increases whether they're dual wielding or using a 2-h. I really should dig up the links.

    I don't mean to sound offensive.

    Only to say that if you haven't dual wield tanked successfully, you really have nothing to offer but your opinion based on math other people did in simulators. Lyd has been successfully dual wield tanking for months and every time he comes out to share that with people they tell him clearly he just hasn't hit the point at which it ceases to work.

    Maybe instead people should take what he says (with as much salt as you like) as a sign that maybe it's not as bad as you might have suspected.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  19. #19
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    so anywho, all dual wield remarks aside

    i looked over the spread sheet that was linked in another article on dk tanking, the changes to our class recently have definately caused a stir and the maths after comparing our different tanking bis sets to other classes kinda worried me, however from what ive seen so far alot of people are bagging frost like its the new unholy (oh cmon we all know it has bad single target threat) and i'm quite lost as to why. I'm in a raiding guild who are stuck on yogg, we've downed the 2 new fights in CC and with the changes as of late i've accepted i'm alot squishier than before!

    I understand the advantages of blood, with it being my other spec (not off or secondary, i switch between the 2 depending on the fight mostly cos i love frost), but are the advantages of blood so great over that of frost that the talent tree that aligns with our tanking presence will see more dps and pvpers using frost than tanks?
    It will be a sad day if blizzard let it get that bad...
    anyway heres my spec's any questions or suggestions? ive already started thinking of changing a thing here or there in my frost spec and i chose hysteria in my blood spec for extra threat and for raid utility, only thing that has me baffled with blood is whether or not mark of blood is as good as what it sounds i've used it but maybe just timed it wrong.
    We all make rushed mistakes or overlook something so if theres something wrong please let me know constructively
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    Last edited by Tankkin; 08-13-2009 at 09:31 AM. Reason: its 1232 am and i wrote tank trees instead of tanking bis sets haha

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tankkin View Post
    so anywho, all dual wield remarks aside

    i looked over the spread sheet that was linked in another article on dk tanking, the changes to our class recently have definately caused a stir and the maths after comparing our different tanking bis sets to other classes kinda worried me, however from what ive seen so far alot of people are bagging frost like its the new unholy (oh cmon we all know it has bad single target threat) and i'm quite lost as to why. I'm in a raiding guild who are stuck on yogg, we've downed the 2 new fights in CC and with the changes as of late i've accepted i'm alot squishier than before!

    I understand the advantages of blood, with it being my other spec (not off or secondary, i switch between the 2 depending on the fight mostly cos i love frost), but are the advantages of blood so great over that of frost that the talent tree that aligns with our tanking presence will see more dps and pvpers using frost than tanks?
    It will be a sad day if blizzard let it get that bad...
    anyway heres my spec's any questions or suggestions? ive already started thinking of changing a thing here or there in my frost spec and i chose hysteria in my blood spec for extra threat and for raid utility, only thing that has me baffled with blood is whether or not mark of blood is as good as what it sounds i've used it but maybe just timed it wrong.
    We all make rushed mistakes or overlook something so if theres something wrong please let me know constructively
    The World of Warcraft Armory
    There is nothing wrong with your spec. I prefer 1 to 3 points in Scent of Blood (I don't like missing out on rune strikes) but I don't consider it mandatory.

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