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Thread: Raid ldr says my threat too low versus Pally tank.

  1. #1
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    Raid ldr says my threat too low versus Pally tank.

    Im Prot, Dod21.40%, Parry19.62%, Block21,59%, Def 557 (gear only) Armor25,672, HP32191(unbuffed), AP3233, hit301, Expertise22.

    Tank rotation Devestate x2, SSlam, Revenge, (cleave with add) Tclap, HS rage dump.

    Raid leader says I dont gen enough threat, vs. Pally Tank. any halp" appreciated
    Last edited by Korwinaros; 08-10-2009 at 01:46 PM.

  2. #2
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    The way I tank is constantly click HS. I don't even get a white hit in because of how many times I hit HS. I use Sslam when it's up and revenge of course and start out with Dev.

    I don't know if it helps but that's always been easy threat for me.

  3. #3
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    More expertise. Until the hard cap (56 or so) expertise is your best stat for more threat, and at the very least you should have 26 expertise to push parries off the table.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulk View Post
    at the very least you should have 26 expertise to push parries off the table.
    By Parries you mean Dodges dont you

    For level 83 (raid bosses) the soft cap(for dps) is 6.5% dodge or 26 expertise (214 expertise rating), and the hard cap(for tanks) is 14% parry or 56 expertise (460 expertise rating)

  5. #5
    trying to threat on par with a pally tank is almost impossible since they have +90% threat their dot crits.

  6. #6
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    There is a sticky for single target threat rotation

    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/4...-rotation.html

    And the hit cap is 262 which you are way over and slightly under expertise soft cap.

    Long and short however at those stats you should not be having trouble on single target, on aoe mob tanking forget it you never going to be able to match the pally its what they do.

    If you doing 25 man your dodge looks at the low end for mind see if you can trade some block in.
    ** Remember Warcraft players fail in directions you never thought possible.

  7. #7
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    First off your raid leader is picking a very very poor thing to compare you to. It's pretty unrealistic to be honest.

    Ok as for your rotation. Devistate has been buffed to patch threat, not suppliment it. Open your rotation up with a shield slam, then shield bash. The roll into devistate until it procs ss. Always use SS when its up. I use an addon called powerauras that helps with this. Or tellmewhen.

    My typical rotation consists of SS,SB,Dev(unless SSprocs I roll it x2), peppered with HS, tclap, shockwave, concus blow. Remove SW and CB from rotation when on cooldown.

    Your threat will 100% improve if you keep SS on cooldown.

  8. #8
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    Why use shield bash?

    Best thing to do is check the link in Uglybbtoo's post

    The thing is, it is no longer a rotation since we now have the sword and board talent. Back in TBCC it used to be SS, Rev, Dev, Dev but those days are gone. What you need to do now is prioritise. If you get lucky you can SS, Rev, SS, Dev, SS, etc (well ok that would be very lucky but can and does happen).

    Shield Slam>rev>conc Blow>Shockwave>Devastate (even after dev buff it is still last, at least for me, conc blow and shockwave still hit harder on single target).

    Stick with that priority system, use devestate only when everthing else is on cooldown and watch for sword and board procs for another free shield slam. Only use Tclap and Demo shout to refresh the debuff (i.e. 30 seconds). Obviously spam heroic strike at the same time so long as you have the rage.

    Unless you really need it to soak some special damage boost from a boss, use shield block as often as you can, your shield slams will hit much harder when it is active.

  9. #9
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    Shield Slam and Revenge should be your big two you always need to get off when they are up. Devistate has always been bottom of my rotation, at least after Sunders are on, but that might change now with 3.2, I still need to check up on that.

    Shield Slam, Revenge, Devistate x2, then start getting your debuffs on. Don't forget to use Shockwave and Concussion Blow too, they cause a good chunk of threat, especially if Shield Slam and Revenge are down.

    When I've ran into Prot Warriors on my server who have threat problems, 90% of the time is because they don't Heroic Strike (or Cleave for multi target) enough. Get it keybound, and start spamming it when your over 50+ rage. KEYBIND IT! Don't click it.

    But ya, comparing you to a Prot Paladin, well... have to remember Paladins start with full mana, we Warriors start with 0 rage, so they always have better initial threat, but my experience has been it always evens out after awhile (in most cases).

  10. #10
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    Whilst yes Pallies do have awsome amounts of threat, we can do the job ok as well. as to starting with zero rage, cmon, bloodrage + charge = loads of rage. Just don't charge off the edge on Kologarn, now I wouldn't do something that stupid would I?? lolz

    My concussion blow and shockwave still hit harder than devastate but... Devastate has around 35% crit chance with 2pc T8 so have to factor that in but in general, crits are not something to rely on as a tank.

    Definitley aggree with you re heroic strike usage Viggo, spam the fu#4 out of it if you have the rage. Many still do not understand that heroic strike is not on the global cooldown, it is not an instant attack.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viggo Vickers View Post
    Shield Slam and Revenge should be your big two you always need to get off when they are up. Devistate has always been bottom of my rotation, at least after Sunders are on, but that might change now with 3.2, I still need to check up on that.

    Shield Slam, Revenge, Devistate x2, then start getting your debuffs on. Don't forget to use Shockwave and Concussion Blow too, they cause a good chunk of threat, especially if Shield Slam and Revenge are down.

    When I've ran into Prot Warriors on my server who have threat problems, 90% of the time is because they don't Heroic Strike (or Cleave for multi target) enough. Get it keybound, and start spamming it when your over 50+ rage. KEYBIND IT! Don't click it.

    But ya, comparing you to a Prot Paladin, well... have to remember Paladins start with full mana, we Warriors start with 0 rage, so they always have better initial threat, but my experience has been it always evens out after awhile (in most cases).
    I forgot to add revenge into my rotation posted above. We do have a prioritize system like normal. But using SS and SB at the start still provides huge threat. So why use SB? Because I can, it still has threat attached to it and its on a CD. not a large one but still. Priorotize system works off what you throw first and procs from there on out. There is absolutely no reason NOT to use SB.

    Devastate has not changed in it's usage. It's specifically used to proc SS over. Along with revenge, hence the use of revenge and devastate. However you can just about sync any mob to you opening with SS,SB and filling in from there. While I won't say that anyone is wrong, I do an amazing 6-7k tps with my particular rotation. And tank side by side with high geared paladins.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irat View Post
    By Parries you mean Dodges dont you
    Yes sorry - teach me to post just before I go to bed won't it

  13. #13
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    Tell your raid leader Paladins have the best threat in the game, and that expecting you to keep up with your Paladin tank's threat is very unrealistic and that if you somehow did gem everything to threat, you'd lose at least some avoidance and health. Keep survivability over threat and tell your DPS not to be morons. It's their job not to pass you in threat. It's your job to make your threat reach an acceptable level. Take the advice regarding rotations above and take my advice regarding telling your raid leader to shove off and you'll be fine.

  14. #14
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    I doubt his raid leader is giving him a hard time about a mere 500-1000 tps difference between him and the pally tank. (EG. pally at 5K and he's pushing 4K) Maybe that's the case, but I doubt it.

    I've dpsed (on my mage) in pugs where the tank, (warrior, paladin, DK, druid etc,) couldn't manage more than 2K TPS in a mix of naxx 10/25 gear. So, before we tell the OP that he shouldn't be comparing himself to the pally, or tell the DPS to "l2omen", maybe we should find out just how bad the problem is.

    What is the average TPS you usually see on omen? Are the dps riding your butt the whole time you tank, and the prot pally is miles ahead of them when he does?

  15. #15
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    Akeber, I tend to agree with you. but after he posted his rotation. it's pretty obvious that's what it is. I guess a little more information wouldn't hurt. The only thing I don't really agree with is saying....

    So, before we tell the OP that he shouldn't be comparing himself to the pally
    He's a warrior and he shouldn't be. it's not even remotely close to the same thing. You can tank side by with any paladin. With some of the best geared warriors ever. And you still will find out that a good paladin/war tanking dynamic has the paladin backing off approrpriatly. So I'll stick with my original comment of agreeing that the raid lead needs to back up a bit.

    But bad threat or no bad threat. it is the dps's job to stay under him. Does not excuse under threating, but it doesn't excusse awareness either.

  16. #16
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    In response to
    cmon, bloodrage + charge = loads of rage.
    Bloodrage+Charge is awesome for that initial rage generation, sure. But what happens after you get that initial burst off and the pally has still managed to outthreat you?
    But assuming you are able to keep on top of that pesky pally, I would say to the OP, remember that tanking is a balancing act, yes, you COULD gem up for threat (exp), load up on that threat. But are you going to be giving up 2.5k health doing it? whats going to happen to all that avoidance you spent so much time gearing up? Sure, that pally outthreats you, but threat wont mean much if you bite the dust as soon as you hit 110% threat just to beat him out in a game your raid leader is playing.
    Prioritize, Prioritize, and I say again, Prioritize. (and spam that HS like there is no tommorrow!)
    I am prepared to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter - Winston Churchill

  17. #17
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    Make sure your raid's rogues are ToTing you. Also, open with a shield slam when the mob's in range, forget the devastate until you've at least introduced your shield to said mob's face.

    Are you vigilancing your dps? Do you have the glyph for it? If not, you might want to get it.

    Finally, it might be worth noting that a pally will probably produce more threat even when you do these things. This doesn't mean we shouldn't tank and warriors can and do tank everything in the game - paladins just have very strong threat at this point.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumdawg View Post
    Sure, that pally outthreats you, but threat wont mean much if you bite the dust as soon as you hit 110% threat just to beat him out in a game your raid leader is playing.
    If the RL is giving you a hard time about losing in a "threat off" to prot paladin whilst you're both trying to tank the same mob, I'd start looking for a new guild ASAP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gumurak View Post
    He's a warrior and he shouldn't be. it's not even remotely close to the same thing. You can tank side by with any paladin. With some of the best geared warriors ever. And you still will find out that a good paladin/war tanking dynamic has the paladin backing off approrpriatly. So I'll stick with my original comment of agreeing that the raid lead needs to back up a bit.
    Bad wording on my part. A well geared and properly played warrior will find it hard (if not impossible) to match the threat that a similarly geared and equally skilled paladin tanks can produce. Hell, even a lesser skilled paladin will probably produce more threat, as the class is generally easier to play.

    However, this does not mean that a warrior tank cannot prodcuce acceptable threat, which is probably more what the OP's raid leader was trying to get at. If the paladin is at 6K tps while giving the DPS lots of breathing room and the OP (warrior) is at 5K and still keeping ahead, the OP's RL would probably have never brought it up.

    I've seen warriors of all gear levels put out good threat, I know it's possible without sacrificing too much in the way of mitigation (expertice is significant mitigation for warriors). I just see too many falling into the "blame it on my class" mentality when faced with someone complaining about their threat generation.

    The OP's armory link is broken as it seems he hasn't updated his profile since a server stransfer. Here is his spec:
    The World of Warcraft Armory

    I'm no warrior expert by any stretch, but I'm thinking 3/3 in deep wounds would help.
    Last edited by Akeber; 08-11-2009 at 11:15 AM.

  19. #19
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    1. Do you have enough health, avoidance and mitigation to keep your healers from having an OOM heart-attack?
    2. Do you produce sufficient threat to allow your dps to put their foot to the floor and not worry about threat.
    3. Do you know the mechanics and positioning of each fight to give your raid the best possible advantage.

    If you can answer yes to all these then your RL should take a couple valium and throw on an old rerun of the Cosby Show. Your RL needs a better grasp of class mechanics because right now comparing a Warrior to a Pally for tanking is like comparing an orange to a bananna and then complaining the bananna doesn't have a citris taste.

  20. #20
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    I think your main fault is following a rotation. I keep HS up all the time, and use Revenge, Shield Slam, Conc blow, HcT and Shockwave whenever it is off CD, while filling the gaps with Devastate and refreshing debuffs. Gives me excellent threat, and with your gear, you should do more than me.

    Go 15/5/51 for threat, with Focused Rage if you need more threat, along with Glyph of Blocking. With that specc, I aggroed XT yesterday (Paladin maintanking) between 1st and 2nd heart due to Devastate spam and Shield Slams whenever it came up through Sword and Board. Of course that was due to a critspree, but you get the point - the specc gives excellent threat. Now I don't have a threat meter, so I can't tell you what my threat was like, but people were pushing 4.5k DPS so I think the Paladin's aggro was quite allright.

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