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Thread: 3.2 Threat Values (Devastate)

  1. #1
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    3.2 Threat Values (Devastate)

    This whole thing spawned because of an argument I had with someone on Wowhead forums about tanks using rend. It got me to re-download the threat add-on Satrina used in the groundbreaking "3.0 Threat Values" thread.

    Note that I wiped out my talent trees because Damage Shield, Deep Wounds, Enrage Procs, and Shield Spec Procs were annoying to sort through. Also note that all of the "threat" values are divided by 207.35 defensive stance modifier to "normalize" the value, as in the original thread.

    I'll start with a few other abilities before I get into Devastate:

    Bloodrage:

    0 threat
    Pop Bloodrage, gain 20 rage
    10000 threat
    11037 threat
    12074 threat
    12148 threat

    Initial 20 rage is not modified by stance (5 threat per rage * 100% modifier). The extra 10 rage from ticks are affected by stance's 207.35% modifier (5 threat per rage * 207.35% modifier).


    Improved Bloodrage Talent:

    0 threat
    Pop Bloodrage, gain 30 rage
    15000 threat
    16555 threat
    18110 threat
    19665 threat

    So the way Improved Bloodrage works is you get 30 rage plus 15 over 10 seconds. You actually get 1.5 rage per second, which is why this is showing 7.5 threat per tick. Again, Initial 30 rage is not modified by stance, but the 15 rage from ticks is modified by the 207.35%. (5 threat per rage gained)


    Sunder Armor with 2404 Attack Power
    1191065 threat
    Sunder Armor
    Melee 595
    1413965 threat

    1075 threat. Minus melee swing is 480 threat, 360? from sunder + 120 from AP (5% of 2404)

    Sunder Armor with 2396 Attack Power
    3606149 threat
    Sunder Armor
    Melee 329
    3773687 threat

    808 threat. Minus 329 melee swing is 479 threat. 360? from sunder + 119 from AP (5% of 2396)

    Sunder Armor with 2300 Attack Power
    1048919 threat
    Sunder Armor
    1144409 threat

    475 threat. 360? from sunder + 115 from AP 5% of 2300.

    Sunder Armor with 3690 Attack Power
    562540 threat
    Melee - 1298
    Sunder Armor
    944478 threat

    1842 threat, minus 1298 melee is 544 threat. 360? from sunder and 184 from AP (5% of 3690)

    [So it looks like the innate threat from Sunder Armor is 360 + 5% AP now]


    Shield Specialization:

    The 5 rage gained from Dodge/Parry/Block an attack does 5 threat per rage (25 threat per D/P/B) which is not modified by stance.


    Improved Defensive Stance

    Every time the enrage effect occurs, even if it is just refreshing the buff, you gain 1 threat, which IS modified by stance.


    Shield Slam and Revenge:

    I didn't write down any of the data, but verified that they are still Damage + 770 and Damage + 121 respectively.

    Now with that out of the way, here's a bunch of Devastate data. I'll start off with a summary. I was trying to verify that Glyph of Devastate still worked as it did pre-3.2, that is doubling the threat that is added from the 5% AP. What I found is that the "bonus" threat from Devastate seems to change depending on how much attack power you have; the more AP you have the less percent bonus you get. Note however that at a "baseline" of around 2500 AP (my unbuffed AP), I was getting ~17% AP bonus as threat, NOT the 5% from pre-3.2. And I also verified that the threat does not change based on the number of sunders on the target, and Glyph of Devastate does still double the extra threat.

    What I need is help in figuring out how this scales. Maybe I'm missing something simple. Anyway, here are my findings:

    [EDIT: READ THIS: I left all of the below because I wanted to keep the original thread intact, but for anyone referencing this, Devastate Threat has been determined to be Damage + 315 + 5% AP for unglyphed and Damage + 630 + 10% AP when using Glyph of Devastate]

    Unglyphed Devastate:

    1256 Attack Power

    725516
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 551
    917937

    928 threat, minus devastate damage is 377 extra threat (30% of 1256 AP). [Edit: 377 extra threat is 315 + 62 (5% of 1256)]

    1082572 threat
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 690
    1303815

    1067 threat, minus devastate damage is 377 extra threat. [Edit: 377 extra threat is 315 + 62 (5% of 1256)]



    2422 Attack Power

    757243
    Melee - 345
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 1243
    1176820

    2024 threat. Minus 345 melee is 1679, minus devastate damage is 436 extra threat. 436 is 18% of 2422 AP. [Edit: 436 extra threat is 315 + 121 (5% of 2422)]

    1336579 threat
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 731
    Melee - 342
    1649471 threat

    1509 threat. Minus 342 melee is 1167, minus devastate damage is 436 extra threat. [Edit: 436 extra threat is 315 + 121 (5% of 2422)]

    1725776 threat
    Melee - 367
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 911
    2081174 threat

    1714 threat. Minus 367 melee is 1347, minus devastate damage is 436 extra threat [Edit: 436 extra threat is 315 + 121 (5% of 2422)]



    2524 Attack Power

    155928 threat
    Melee - 437
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 644
    471514 threat

    1522 threat, minus 437 melee and 644 devastate is 441 extra threat (17.4% of 2524 AP) [Edit: 441 extra threat is 315 + 126 (5% of 2524)]




    3430 Attack Power

    425274 threat
    Melee 464
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 832
    794771 threat

    1782 threat, minus 464 melee and 832 devastate damage is 486 extra threat, 14% of 3430 AP... [Edit: 486 extra threat is 315 + 171 (5% of 3430)]



    3980 Attack Power

    778600
    Melee - 605
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 1212
    1272300

    2381 threat, minus 605 melee and 1212 devastate is 564 extra threat, 14 % of 3980 AP. [Edit: 564 extra threat is 315 + 199 (5% of 3980)] [Off by 50, some kind of rage gain must have slipped in here]




    Devastate using Glyph of Devastate:

    2524 Attack Power

    293814 threat
    Sunder Armor
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 1384
    Melee - 346
    835411 threat

    2612 threat, minus 346 melee and 1384 devastate is 882 extra threat (35%% of 2524 AP, twice the extra threat of unglyphed) [Edit: 882 extra threat is 630 + 252 (10% of 2524)]

    912753 threat
    Sunder Armor
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 1080
    Melee - 439
    1410600

    2401 threat, minus 439 melee and 1080 devastate is 882 extra threat. [Edit: 882 extra threat is 630 + 252 (10% of 2524)]

    2176758 threat
    Melee - 363
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 1249
    2693888 threat

    2494 threat, minus 363 melee and 1249 devastate is 882 extra threat. [Edit: 882 extra threat is 630 + 252 (10% of 2524)]

    1863107 threat
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 1250
    2305176 threat

    2132 threat, minus 1250 devastate is 882 extra threat. [Edit: 882 extra threat is 630 + 252 (10% of 2524)]

    [Note these last two data points are with 5 stacks of sunder on the mob, thus only one listing of Sunder Armor being applies, but it still gives double the unglyphed threat]


    Last edited by Porcell; 10-02-2009 at 03:09 AM.

  2. #2
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    I'm a bit disappointed that there have been no responses here. For being the premiere tanking website, I'd have thought that a huge ninja-buff to Devastate would have caught some attention...

  3. #3
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    I'm quite interested in this, but I'm no good at math or game testing. I suspect most of the major theorycrafters are looking at either the DK changes, the block value changes (DR and cap) or ... farming emblems like I have.

    So it looks like Glyph of Devastate is still applying the bonus threat (unmentioned on tooltip) as well as sunder effect twice. That makes sense to me, as from a code perspective it's just do dev damage, apply dev effect x 2.

    Have you tried plotting the AP bonus versus AP? I wonder if it's something as straightfoward as Blizz using a fractional exponent.

  4. #4
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    I'm interested in this too, I think a graph of threat vs AP would be useful.

    My primary interest in this would be how does the new devistate match up to CB/SW threat wise. I know that this is alot more complicated (sinse you will have to account for Sword and Board's dev buff and therefore impale/deep wounds and possibly 2t8).

    I'll grind some numbers when I get a chance for how big of an effect those should effect the threat per cast.

  5. #5
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    Thats really good thread but really hard to read and understand :
    "912753 threat
    Sunder Armor
    Sunder Armor
    Devastate - 1080
    Melee - 439
    1410600"

    a bit more explanations would be rly nice (im not t-crafter aswell...)

  6. #6
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    You can read more about the methodology and add-on used here: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/...at-values.html

    Basically Satrina wrote a mod that goes around recording the threat generated whenever you do *something*. You end up with a lot of damage and threat data points. With enough data points you should be able to reverse engineer the damage to threat formulas for each move.

    The trick here is the formula isn't linear anymore for Devastate.

  7. #7
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    Porcell

    your thread has attracted a lot of views and myself included is interested but i dont have the time/ability to evaluate the maths.

    I do however have a lot of raiding to do and im watching my own performance with respect to threat and damage.

    Im glyphed for devastate and sunder armor and i can say that my threat by using devastate in my rotation is now significantly higher, i think before patch i was kicking maybe 5-6k tps now i seem to be around 7k tps with a slight dps increase, perhaps rising from 1.6k-1.8k to about 2k on single target bosses.

    I allways felt that devastate should be worthy of the talent points, i now think it is.
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  8. #8
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    There was a thread in news on the buff to Devastate previously. What I'm failing to see is what the purpose of this thread is to do. Are you advocating the Devastate glyph, Devastate itself, or are you just stating the threat values each ability produces. I don't want to come across as rude, and I'm sorry if I am, but it doesn't matter how much threat devastate does as long as it does less than the abilities we have that have a CD. I was really hoping this thread was going to be a discussion of devastate vs rend like I got from the first statement.

  9. #9
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    He's trying to see if Devastate had it's threat values changed, of course it went up with the damage buff, but what about the previously posted 5% ap, and 10% ap if glyphed.

    If what he's reporting is true, glyphing for devastate increases the amount of threat generated from Devastate by a LOT.

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    I figured I'd see Kaze show up here sometime soon. We need to get ahold of Satrina, since she's the threat queen, the base values we know because of her. It's summer, tankspot forums a bit slower than normal, but there have also been a few other threads dealing with this, and some numbers are in there.

    See if you can find em Porcell, and maybe PM satrina? She's the best expert ^_^
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    Testing devastate threat is on my list of things to do, just have not had time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    There was a thread in news on the buff to Devastate previously. What I'm failing to see is what the purpose of this thread is to do. Are you advocating the Devastate glyph, Devastate itself, or are you just stating the threat values each ability produces.
    The thread in news about Devastate is all about the change from 50% Weapon Damage + 101 per sunder to 100% Weapon Damage + 202 per sunder. That's all well and good; a nice buff. What is not mentioned there, or anywhere else, is the second component to devastate threat, which pre-3.2 was 5% AP when unglyphed. In my original post I showed with some testing that the hidden threat component of devastate has been buffed to 14%-18%, and that it scales somehow with Attack Power. This thread was created to notify the community of this change and to request help in nailing down the formula that determines the scaling effect.

    Also added in the original post was information about other abilities and the threat they give, as well as what appears to be a small change to Sunder Armor threat from 345+5%AP to 360+5%AP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    I don't want to come across as rude, and I'm sorry if I am, but it doesn't matter how much threat devastate does as long as it does less than the abilities we have that have a CD.
    That's exactly what I'm saying. Unbuffed, just Battle Shout, I'm at 4k AP in my boss tanking gear. Whacking on a level 80 target dummy, Shockwave and Concussion Blow hit for 2022 non-crit (4448 crits) and have just my plain 8% crit rate. Devastates are hitting for around 1400 average non-crit (3000 crits) and have 23% chance to crit due to talents. Shockwave/CBlow threat is just straight damage. Devastate, with 4k AP, is an additional 14% of AP threat when not glyphed, 28% when glyphed, so 560 (1120 glyphed) extra threat.

    Taking crits into account, Shockwave/Cblow do an average 2216 damage and 2216 threat. Devastate does 1786 average damage and 2346 threat (2906 threat when using Glyph of Devastate).

  13. #13
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    Wow... that is a pretty big deal. Apparently we shouldn't use sw and cb on threat-sensitive fights anymore.

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    So does this also mean that the devastate glyph might be better than the glyph of blocking? Has anyone tried out a new rotation with out SW and CB in them to make sure in practice it is still more threat?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Porcell View Post
    Taking crits into account, Shockwave/Cblow do an average 2216 damage and 2216 threat. Devastate does 1786 average damage and 2346 threat (2906 threat when using Glyph of Devastate).
    This is what I was looking for. This is huge and simplifies things almost back to BC (but with procs).

    Did you take sword and board procs into account here? (Though doesnt make a big difference really since more threat is more threat)

    Also is there anyway to pull out if the threat bonus was the same for crits and noncrits? Would greatly affect how good 2pc t8 is.

  16. #16
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    I'm no boffin or mathmatician or anything but i glyphed revenge HS and Dev for last nights raid and on tank swich fights I had to resort to just auto attcking to stay below the other, better geared, tank that was still using glyphs of HS blocking and revenge. May have just been the encounter and threat mechcanics of the fight but even the constant tps on omen between the tanks swiches was about 800tps more than the other tank.

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    i still think we as warriors have a had a ninja buff of our tps when we are not being directly targeted by a mob ... can some one look into this for me .... i was almost pulling off our dk tank the other night when i was off tanking a boss ... no one could tell me that was possible pre 3.2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Porcell View Post

    That's exactly what I'm saying. Unbuffed, just Battle Shout, I'm at 4k AP in my boss tanking gear. Whacking on a level 80 target dummy, Shockwave and Concussion Blow hit for 2022 non-crit (4448 crits) and have just my plain 8% crit rate. Devastates are hitting for around 1400 average non-crit (3000 crits) and have 23% chance to crit due to talents. Shockwave/CBlow threat is just straight damage. Devastate, with 4k AP, is an additional 14% of AP threat when not glyphed, 28% when glyphed, so 560 (1120 glyphed) extra threat.

    Taking crits into account, Shockwave/Cblow do an average 2216 damage and 2216 threat. Devastate does 1786 average damage and 2346 threat (2906 threat when using Glyph of Devastate).
    Ahh, this is what I was looking for at the end of the post. One of the things I hated most about Wrath's setup was that my single best AoE threat generator was also one of the abilities I wanted to be using for single target purposes. I thank you for your work, and I apologize if I caused any ill feelings.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirloinsteak View Post
    i still think we as warriors have a had a ninja buff of our tps when we are not being directly targeted by a mob ... can some one look into this for me .... i was almost pulling off our dk tank the other night when i was off tanking a boss ... no one could tell me that was possible pre 3.2
    Yea I know what you mean the last week, especially since I got glyph of devastate, I am pulling at least 5k threat while OTing by just devastating and Sslaming mainly.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porcell View Post
    Taking crits into account, Shockwave/Cblow do an average 2216 damage and 2216 threat. Devastate does 1786 average damage and 2346 threat (2906 threat when using Glyph of Devastate).
    I am watching this thread closely and appreciate the work you've put in Porcell. If there are things you need help with, please give us some simple directions.

    One thing I'd observe - you are using unbuffed crit rates. Standard raid comps will skew crit rates somewhat - with 5% from LotP/Rampage and 3% from Master Poisoner/Heart of Crusader. Some of that is offset by boss level. I wonder if that should be factored into your summary and whether it would influence the point at which devastate outperforms SW/CB for pure threat?

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