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Thread: Questions about Suno's Blood DK Tank spec

  1. #1
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    Questions about Suno's Blood DK Tank spec

    I hate EJ's 5,000 page threads, but the specs I got from Suno seem to do pretty well.

    He lists two blood specs for 3.2, and it's kinda weird. One has two points in subversion(?), the other has two in Sudden Doom. Both have one point in necrosis, which just seems really really weird.

    Why one point in necrosis as opposed to filling out Sudden Doom or Subversion? And which is better, Subversion or SD?

    Dylae

  2. #2
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    Can you link or reproduce the builds?

    I can probably do out some math that gives the pt for pt value of the talents, but I did the math for myself offline (trying to find a new home for my CE point, RIP Corpse Explosion), and I found that Sudden Doom is a better improvement in threat than Necrosis, point for point. I imagine Subversion would work out the same.

    (I'm still using my 3.1 build with the 1 pt moved, since nothing else has really changed. I'll be posting something in the coming weeks discussing that, once I have a better feeling for how it all feels.)
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  3. #3
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    Suno already posted that the one with Sudden Doom was a mistake.

    Here's the link to his Blood build: Suno's Blood Build

    I believe the 1 point in Necrosis builds upon the fact that Blood tanking, far more than any other DK tank build, emphasizes Rune Strikes and white damage for threat. The increased crit, strength, and armor penetration all contribute to this. Consequently, Necrosis is an *excellent* DPS/Threat talent for Blood DKs.

    {Edit - didn't finish my thought}
    Personally, I don't like that he puts two points in Subversion. However, I'm sure they are filler points for him. I prefer Rune Tap for that, but then I've found Rune Tap to be much more useful than many DKs seem to.
    Last edited by Craxs; 08-06-2009 at 11:50 AM.

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    Yah, the usefulness of Rune Tap has a lot to do with how good your healers are.

  5. #5
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    I've seen Suno's builds and have to wonder whether he's actually played a blood dk..
    3/3 SoB lol wut? When did blood start needing active RP regeneration?
    3/3 morbidity, I guess it's useful if you don't know where the pest button is.. surely he can't be using it for DC threat because blood has all the threat it needs without it.
    Also no ravenous dead? ok it's pretty sucky from a threat perspective but it's also a small avoidance gain, and remember blood is fine threat wise. Esp if you've taken all the melee dmg talents like 3.3 subversion.. it's almost like I'm suggesting a blood tank does the majority of it's threat through.. gasp.. physical dmg!
    Seriously tho, as crap as talents like spell deflection and RD are, they're more useful than threat talents if you're consistently clear of the dps on threat.

    Personally I prefer to survive since thats a tank #1 job, if you're really struggling at staying ahead on threat you have the option of MD/tott or asking the dps to FD/Invis/vanish/SS etc.. but I've never seen a time when thats a big problem as blood.

    Some of Suno's stuff is excellent but some of it makes my eyes bleed.

  6. #6
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    Too many different ways to spec as a Death Knight tanking wise. You'll see too many people talking and not enough people truly agreeing with that sort of site. No offense to EJ, i do my own research on their site, but a lot of it is Theorycrafting and only can go so far.

    To be honest, look at the talent and weigh it before placing it in your build. You'll get a better understanding of your class in that manner.

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  7. #7
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    His spec is, to put it nicely, garbage.

    WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay - Simple Breakdown of Threat. Necrosis is almost equal to DS with DC not far behind. Not a huge amount in the scheme of things, but no reason to leave them out of your build for the inferior SoB.

    Edit - You could argue all day about Rune Tap. I find it almost useless since I rarely have blood runes available for activation unless I am going defensive, and in situations where I really need survival I use Vamp. Blood. To each his own.
    Last edited by Edgewalker; 08-07-2009 at 06:50 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylae View Post
    Yah, the usefulness of Rune Tap has a lot to do with how good your healers are.
    Incorrect.

    I can hit Rune Tap faster than any healer can pad me up if they didn't have a heal queued pre-emptively. It is off the GCD, and I can react to health drops before my healers do. On a typical Uld25 run, this accounts for ~25% of my incoming heals and I average less than 10% overhealing on it.

    My Rune Taps save my healers' mana and time, and make it appear as if I'm taking less damage than I do. That said it is a rather hard skill to develop because it requires you to be very actively involved with your health and recognize the best moments to prop yourself up. This is a MAJOR part of why I love tanking as Blood. Every other tank has a moment, sooner or later, where you have to watch yourself die because you've run out of things you can do to save yourself, your healers have dropped/been distracted/been interrupted/been LoS'd. Blood is the only tanking class/spec where I have never had that moment, and I miss it when I tank with other specs or classes. It's not a big deal, but it is a great feeling to be so actively involved in your own survival.
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  9. #9
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    Also, Suno's spec is pretty standard in appearance for a survival-oriented build. He hits several of the key points for the play style, but sacrifices a few valuable abilities based on popular expectations.

    Specifically:
    Morbidity is a fine talent, Vlad, for when you want to be able to cover aoe tanking and chain pickups (there are several spots in Uld where I make use of that), and say what you will about its damage, but DC is still our RP dump and buffing that damage doesn't hurt at all.

    SoB, is one I happen to agree with you on. I put no points in it and never want for RP for tanking. If I were to take it, it would just translate into more DC's potentially to dump, and as it is I rarely have the open GCD's to dump them. Now, if you wanted to really play up DC damage, glyph it, with morbidity, and pick up Sudden Doom, you can make some nice threat that way, but it seems out of place in his build style.

    Subversion is a major player in the dynamic of Bloody Vengeance and Might of Mograine. Necrosis is nice, but MoM wins out with 3/3 in Subversion, in my gear. I also only sport about 11% crit out of raid buffs so I don't think that's a terribly hard benchmark to hit.


    The problem with generalizing about DK tank or dps builds (and I suspect Suno may be one who does so) is that the trees are built VERY heavily around synergy. What that means is, there are many elements within each tree, and with gear, that will benefit each other and increase or change the values of everything else you do.

    For example, if you have Subversion, Imp DS, Dark Conviction, and Bloody Vengeance, with raid buffs, MoM is a bigger threat value than Sudden Doom or Necrosis, even with 5/5 in Blood-gorged. But if you take threads out of that confluence of buffs, then suddenly other things become more valuable.


    His build will work just fine, and the tank will be good and hardy, but if you're interested in stronger threat at the cost of small losses in survival, I can show you some different choices. =)

    I'm working on my 3.2 Build Shop, and I'm trying to find the best way to present the relevant synergies for Blood so the information is more accessible for people who make different choices from me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #10
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    Now that'd be useful, because using a cookie-cutter is good, but knowing which 3-5 talents I can screw around with is way better. (Especially since some of the talents I considered mandatory are actually filler.)

    So is this what you do for blood then?
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192
    Last edited by Pylae; 08-07-2009 at 08:52 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylae View Post
    Now that'd be useful, because using a cookie-cutter is good, but knowing which 3-5 talents I can screw around with is way better. (Especially since some of the talents I considered mandatory are actually filler.)

    So is this what you do for blood then?
    http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

    Try this. Scent of Blood is simply not needed for a blood spec unless you are over dumping death coils. http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

    Sudden Doom and Imp. Icy Touch can be floater points easily in most raid situations. Will of the Necropolis too. If you need more survival on spell damage fights throw Sudden Doom into spell defelction, if you need more threat on easier hitting fights drop Will and Icy Touch and max necrosis and 1 point blood caked blade. The shell stays the same though.

  12. #12
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    Here's what I've been running with since 3.2 dropped, and I am loving it:

    Zivh - Norgannon

    I have had no problems holding threat, and haven't had any premature deaths due to lack of mitigation or avoidance (thus far).

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zivh View Post
    Here's what I've been running with since 3.2 dropped, and I am loving it:

    Zivh - Norgannon

    I have had no problems holding threat, and haven't had any premature deaths due to lack of mitigation or avoidance (thus far).
    I don't understand why people seem to hate Subversion and Glyph of Rune Strike. They are two amazing burst threat talents/glyphs, and a great increase on overall TPS. Definitely a better use than Glyph of Death and Decay overall, and most likely spell deflection, which I like to keep as a specialized spec for specific progression encounters.

    Edit - I'll break it down into numerical form when I come back from vacation just for Satorri.

  14. #14
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    It could be to help address blood's poor (or poorer) AoE, making it more of an all-purpose spec. For single target, I'd say rune strike hands down, but since you're already taking morbidity, glyph of DnD isn't a terrible choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttocs View Post
    It could be to help address blood's poor (or poorer) AoE, making it more of an all-purpose spec. For single target, I'd say rune strike hands down, but since you're already taking morbidity, glyph of DnD isn't a terrible choice.
    Blood's "poor" AoE is a myth though. For 99% of pulls you can DnD, BB, Rune Tap, BB. With smart target switching it really is not an issue. I can't think of anything else that adds in packs where additional AoE help is needed beyond that simple rotation.
    I think a lot of issues people have with snap agro is that they attempt to set up a disease rotation first, instead of second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    I don't understand why people seem to hate Subversion and Glyph of Rune Strike.
    I'm sorry, but when did I say I hated either of them? Just because I'm not using them doesn't mean I hate them.

    All I said was that the spec I am currently using is working out extremely well for me.

    I have 0 problems holding aggro on a single target, hence Rune Strike glyph is a toss up for me, I don't find it "necessary".

    Blood tanking is notably less awesome at holding threat on multiple targets, and with the spec I am currently using, I have 0 issues holding threat on multiple targets.

    Subversion to me is also a talent that I find personally that I have no need for. Half of the talent is to not pull aggro while DPSing, the other half is for popping crits. I have a DPS spec for DPSing and I have Subversion in that spec. I much prefer the extra mitigation from Spell Deflection, and the healing abilities from Rune Tap, and find my points much better spent there, being a Tank.
    Last edited by Zivh; 08-10-2009 at 11:06 PM. Reason: grammar error

  17. #17
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    I think Glyphing DnD is ok, but unnecessary. Like Edge said, for aoe threat, it's just not necessary.

    Personally I prefer not to use it too much as it eats up half your runes in one shot. Spamming BB is usually fine to set solid aoe threat, and it still leaves me the option to change what I use my runes for midstream (particularly switching to HS to shore up threat on specific targets). I use the ability to chain it more often (Morbidity) for chain pulls like Thorim's arena, Razorscale trash, Hodir trash, Mimi phase 3, etc.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    I don't understand why people seem to hate Subversion and Glyph of Rune Strike. They are two amazing burst threat talents/glyphs, and a great increase on overall TPS. Definitely a better use than Glyph of Death and Decay overall, and most likely spell deflection, which I like to keep as a specialized spec for specific progression encounters.

    Edit - I'll break it down into numerical form when I come back from vacation just for Satorri.
    1) Spell deflection will provide mitigation against the following bosses, given the small size of the list I do not recommend it (the list may grow, I do not claim it's a complete list):
    Razorscale - Fireball, breath (unverified)
    Stormcaller Brundir - Chain Lightning, maybe lightning whirl
    Thorim - Stormhammer, Frostbolt (hardmode)
    Freya - Stormlasher various abilities
    Mimiron - Plasma Blast, rapid burst, plasma ball (unlikely to be hit)
    Sartharion
    Northrend Beasts - Maybe Icehowl's cone and Wurms poison spits

    2) Rune Strike is my highest TPS, glyph of rune strike is an excellent choice for single target tanking.
    3) I agree, I do not find glyph of DnD necessary.


    1) Some napkin math (I'm admittedly a beginner at this)
    3838 white damage, HS hits for 4124, HS crits for 9000, rune strike 2059, 19% crit raid buffed, DK has DRM
    w/o subversion: 0.81*4124 +.19 *9000 = 5050
    Subversion: .72*4124 + .28*9000 = 5489
    146 per pt

    Necrosis
    0.04 * 3838 + .04 * 2059 = 235 per pt


    2) Rune tap requires you to save a blood rune, get lucky, or plan ahead. It is not a bad talent, but I remain skeptical.
    Last edited by dhthomps; 08-13-2009 at 09:23 AM. Reason: Trying my hand at numbers

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    Echoing my other thread, dhthomps, you make some very absolute statements. Based on what?

    Necrosis is the best point for point tps increase? I happened to disagree, so I wonder why you say that?


    Also, side note, Rune Tap doesn't require you to save a rune, with Blood having usually 4-6 runes available to use it coming up on individual CD's, and the infrequent use of Blood Tap in a single rune rotation, it's rarely hard to pop it when you need it. No planning required, only reflexes. It is also off the GCD meaning you can use it at any time without bumping something else to use it for a 3 sec span.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Echoing my other thread, dhthomps, you make some very absolute statements. Based on what?

    Necrosis is the best point for point tps increase? I happened to disagree, so I wonder why you say that?


    Also, side note, Rune Tap doesn't require you to save a rune, with Blood having usually 4-6 runes available to use it coming up on individual CD's, and the infrequent use of Blood Tap in a single rune rotation, it's rarely hard to pop it when you need it. No planning required, only reflexes. It is also off the GCD meaning you can use it at any time without bumping something else to use it for a 3 sec span.

    Post edited above.

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