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Thread: DK QQ -- 3.2 and beyond

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odwome View Post
    <debunking of block's usefulness>
    Of course block won't make a huge difference in most cases - it's not designed to do so.

    But it still remains that I take next to no damage from the adds on Mimiron, Ignis, Thorim or XT. It shouldn't make or break the fight, but freeing a healer's time does increase chance of success (or the amount of dps spots.)
    The biggest help I see from block is against nonelemental melee attacks. Block really shines there. The best example is the two pairs of adds before Thorim. I can tank the lightning hitter for quite a long time before he starts breaching my shield, and even then the damage I take is paltry.
    I also noticed a big difference against the elementals at Sartharion.
    Now, again, not saying that it revolutionizes the way the game is played, but a lot of things can be made considerably easier if you keep these things in mind.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    DK threat and damage output is still through the roof in comparison.
    Or not; for threat definetly not, pal are way ahead (any decent pally with a half good gear can take the agro of any other tank; sometime not even
    intentionnaly). For DPS, we may have a slight advantages over Pal (and war but not bear), but honestly it's isnt big and it doesnt really matter. I will trade my dps advantage over pally threat one anyday.


    Quote Originally Posted by wazdaa View Post
    only thing i really don't like about this patch is how self heal has become our block in blizz their eyes. i mean in it self i don't have a problem with it, when managed right they do the job just fine. all in all though i'd say as blood we are pretty balanced for now.

    just frost and unholy are just meh.
    That's one of my concern; I tried to respec frost after the patch because I though with the nerf in HP blood wouldnt be so attractive and I like frost. But I already respeced blood. Reasons:
    - just to be on par with other tanks concerning HP (well war at least), you have to be blood; as frost or unholy you are too much behind
    - blood self healing compensate for the lack of block
    - vampiric blood is still a lot better than UA. UA is laughable imo (as I already said it's like having a 100% block for 20sec every 2min); it's better for threat/dps than for mitigation.


    Frost and unholy was already close to other classes' HP before 3.2, only blood was ahead; now blood is on par and frost and unholy fall behind

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Indeed, Ghromoth, I posted this in your HALP! thread, but no DK tank lost 6k health from the patch. I'm fairly certain you can count on one hand DKs who could lose more than I did, and that was closer to 3k.
    Well I did, fully raidbuffed of course, but I'm normaly not running around alone and tanking stuff for my Ghoul. Dropped from 51k to 47k, yes this is only 4k but considering the epic gems, the new Jewelcrafter gems, the additional stamina through mining and the new chest I got from the first boss of the new raid (very sweet thing btw), 6k is not that far off.

    And anyone telling me not to worry , let me tell you about a ret pala in my guild, who has prot as his second specc: His gear is half Ulduar 10 and half Ulduar 25 (with some odd Ulduar 10 man hardmode items) no heart of iron or yogg 10 man trinket. My gear is full Udlduar 25 ,except the random tank neck und auriaya cloak (they just won't drop) with also some Ulduar 10 hm items and the chest mentioned above. Well he has around 1k health more than me 2% total avoid less and is hit immun, and now tell me again not to worry ...

  4. #64
    I've been frost long time but after going through the new raid last night, I felt very squishy and hard to maintain. I'm not sure though if it was me or it was just the healers getting to know the new fights. I'll give it a few more tries and if it's still not going good, will give going Blood a try.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    Inaccurate. A competent Unholy DK has two cooldowns, both on 2 min CDs, IBF & Boneshield. Obviously on Boneshield you're going to want any help your raid can provide. At the same time, with all the 2 min trinkets, it can be very viable to spam Boneshield/Trinket/Trinket as a macro and hope it's enough.

    Also, while a notable threat loss, Death Strike functions equally well for self healing while spec'ed Unholy.

    I'm pretty sure this will suffice. I'm going to see how this works out, since the alternative choice of our warrior isn't an option tonight.

    Just an FYI I was able to solo tank General last night without taking too much in the way of damage during his enrages, I just made sure to use IBF then on the next enrage I would wait till the last few seconds of the cast to pop a fresh bone shield and AMS(10% physical reduction from 4p bonus), rinse and repeat. And talking with the Heals leader healing me this week was no different from past weeks. Same thing with Yogg, I did miss the AOE Blight for tanking the adds and damaging Yogg, but I made it work.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyn View Post
    Well I did, fully raidbuffed of course, but I'm normaly not running around alone and tanking stuff for my Ghoul. Dropped from 51k to 47k, yes this is only 4k but considering the epic gems, the new Jewelcrafter gems, the additional stamina through mining and the new chest I got from the first boss of the new raid (very sweet thing btw), 6k is not that far off.
    Let me re-approach.

    All tolled, Blood DK's lost the most health in the same set of gear before and after the patch. 3% less stamina, and 10% health to 6% stamina. Even after all the buffs and multipliers, this is pretty close to a 7% health loss. In order to lose 6k health, you would've had to have had over 80k health...

    Nowhere close. Dealing with 40-50k total health values, 1k or 2k seems like a small increment, but beware rounding with numbers at a glance.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celchu View Post
    Just an FYI I was able to solo tank General last night without taking too much in the way of damage during his enrages, I just made sure to use IBF then on the next enrage I would wait till the last few seconds of the cast to pop a fresh bone shield and AMS(10% physical reduction from 4p bonus), rinse and repeat. And talking with the Heals leader healing me this week was no different from past weeks.
    Regretfully, I got nailed on the start of the pull (one aoe heal hitting me between to unavoided hits), and a paladin picked it up long enough to show viability. I was shifted to DPS the following attempt, and it resulted in a kill. I opted to not raise an issue about the healing, but in hindsight, I probably should have asked for a second attempt and remind the healers of the nerfs. Now, I'm prolly not going to get a chance if a non-DK tank is present... in a 25 man raid. Suuurrreeee.

    At this point, I'm going to become DPS, as there are enough other tanks to make me unnecessary.

  8. #68
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    Tps

    I for one noticed a much more TPS loss then a mitigation loss. Yeah, I take more hits and have fewer hit points, but that's fine, I just have to rotate cool downs again, that actually makes me enjoy the game more, gives me more to do.

    However, my only DK QQ is my TPS is rough, especially at the begining of fights. Once I can throw in a corpse explosion or two, it's no prob, but the begining of pulls, it's SO much harder to do "burst threat", and I don't quite know where or how it's different, as I'm using the same rotation, but I definitly have to have DPS give me a full rotation now instead of a half of rotation before going all crazy. Which doesn't seem like much, that's only a 4-5 second difference, but when our DPS is already naturally low, it's a HUGE difference.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    Of course block won't make a huge difference in most cases - it's not designed to do so.

    But it still remains that I take next to no damage from the adds on Mimiron, Ignis, Thorim or XT. It shouldn't make or break the fight, but freeing a healer's time does increase chance of success (or the amount of dps spots.)
    The biggest help I see from block is against nonelemental melee attacks. Block really shines there. The best example is the two pairs of adds before Thorim. I can tank the lightning hitter for quite a long time before he starts breaching my shield, and even then the damage I take is paltry.
    I also noticed a big difference against the elementals at Sartharion.
    Now, again, not saying that it revolutionizes the way the game is played, but a lot of things can be made considerably easier if you keep these things in mind.
    Yeah, block is pretty useful against weak mobs that don't have any real, meaningful chance to kill you. That was my point in the first place, that block doesn't have a place for serious raidboss-tanking warriors. If we focus at all on block stats, then we are seriously missing out on stats that actually do help out, like increased stamina, avoidance, bonus armor on items, expertise, and even hit rating.

    In my current block value set, my BV is right around the cap. That makes it pretty damn good for PvP or grinding (in fact, I pwned a ret pally who used both his bubble and lay on hands in one fight against me, lawlers), but as an actual tanking mechanism, it is seriously lacking in its current form.

    Edit: Also, reading this topic really is putting a smile on my face. Most of these posts could be placed into a topic a couple months ago called "Warrior QQ -- 3.1 and beyond)". Seriously, I think it's pretty funny. DKs were arguably the best tanks for the vast majority of encounters, assuming equal gear/player skill, and now you guys have pretty much been moved down to where warriors are.

    The only thing that I agree is pretty lame is that they buffed prot pallies so significantly. They need to start making slight adjustments between major patches, not a bunch of overlapping "fixes" that end up with a system as slanted as it was before.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    Regretfully, I got nailed on the start of the pull (one aoe heal hitting me between to unavoided hits), and a paladin picked it up long enough to show viability. I was shifted to DPS the following attempt, and it resulted in a kill. I opted to not raise an issue about the healing, but in hindsight, I probably should have asked for a second attempt and remind the healers of the nerfs. Now, I'm prolly not going to get a chance if a non-DK tank is present... in a 25 man raid. Suuurrreeee.

    At this point, I'm going to become DPS, as there are enough other tanks to make me unnecessary.
    Ya we wiped a few times before we got him down, but that was more due to people missing there interrupts then anything else. I ran into a healer issue Tuesday night doing the new raid, but we quickly fixed that. Don't give up on DK Tanking, we can still do it!

  11. #71
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    Hey weird question for the DKs here since I don't know all that much about them.

    Yesterday, we had a druid who was in our raid with me and my MT a DK.

    she casted rejuv on me, and rejuv on him. It healed him for 4500 a tick, and healed me for 4000 a tick.

    we couldn't figure wtf was going on.

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  12. #72
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    Improved Blood Presence maybe?

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celchu View Post
    Improved Blood Presence maybe?
    DK has to be in Blood Presence to get the healing bonus (similar to other dps classes +healing talents). Vampiric Blood is out, it's a 35% healing increase also. The difference, btw, is 12.5%, so it may have been a quirk of IBP & the druid +6% healing aura, or even the application of the Rejuv on you didn't account for a spellpower/aura bonus from somewhere else (ie, a totem wasn't buffing the druid when casting on you, but was up when hitting the DK).

    Can you reproduce this? And I assume no possible trinket procs by the druid?

  14. #74
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    we did it out of combat waiting to start a pull, we were both in the same group, no procs... very strange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by GBF View Post
    Ugh. The snarky replies on the first page were distressing.
    Seriously? They were in response to laments over not being overpowered anymore. Responses tend to follow the lead of the OP.

    According to Premonition's tests, and Glutton's post on the official forums here: Tanks in highest-end 3.2 gear Death Knights are most certainly not "fine."
    Um, please go look at the real numbers (everyone) as in terms of survivability DK's most certainly were fine in all of Premonitions tests: 3.2 Tank Tests - Premonition - Sen'jin (US)

    Note that "fine" is not the same as "best". As for being behind when entirely clad in BiS gear...sorry, but balance is not made around BiS gear, and if you have it then survival is probably not the biggest issue anyways.

    In current gear we have lower threat, dps, and effective health than Paladins and Druids
    Yes. And more avoidance. You are on par with warriors now, with the under-represented tank classes having a very minor advantage (much more minor than the advantage DKs have had until 3.2).

    On the PTR Death Knights were taking about the same amount of damage as an equivalently geared Warrior, and that's before Block.
    Not what the tests showed; you are taking the same or less damage AFTER block. Sorry, but the data just doesn't square with your claim.

    (Oh, but after the Devastate buff, Warriors also have higher threat and DPS).
    Yes, we now have higher single target threat and you have higher AOE thread. I believe it's called "flavor".

    The kicker is that in the best gear available in 3.2's raids, Death Knights also have lower ARMOR than Warriors and Paladins due to a sword with bonus armor on it.
    Yes, in total BiS you end up a totally irrelevant amount behind on armor because of a sword with some bonus armor. It makes not an iota of difference.

    We are now the absolute bottom of the barrel, and it is stupidly obvious that we need either a block mechanic, or a partial or full revert of the changes to Frost Presence and Toughness.
    In the tests shown in normal progression gear you are just find; you are tied with warriors (after block) and not even a percent behind pallies and druids.

    Warriors are also not where they need to be, but currently the disparity between Death Knights/Warriors and Druids/Paladins is so massive you have to wonder what the devs were thinking.
    Again, I'm sorry but this is hyperbole...and I'm a warrior, so I'm on the "bottom" with you. Everyone is so much closer post 3.2 than they were pre 3.2 that this complaint comes off as disingenuous and self serving QQ. Yes, DK tanking is now more difficult than it was pre 3.2. It's still easier than it was for pallies or warriors pre 3.2, and druids and pally base survival is not even a percent better than yours and mine is given equal gear/skill. It's so small that regemming, a single good upgrade, or just having a bit better grasp of your class all easily outweigh the differences on most encounters. On magic-heavy bosses druids may have a bit of an advantage, but on slow hard hitters they probably won't. On single-target DPS races DKs will be a bit behind, on AOE encounters they (and pallies) will be a bit ahead.

    The sky is not falling, and humorous responses to a thread complaining about the death of DK OPness are not inherently evil.

  16. #76
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    I love the horror that comes from being "on par with warriors now". The idea that being a comparable tank to a warrior is a reason for the world to end.

    Love it.

    Really.

    p.s. DPS lower than a warrior's? Really? Was it a DPS specced warrior of which you are speaking?

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caric View Post
    p.s. DPS lower than a warrior's? Really? Was it a DPS specced warrior of which you are speaking?
    No, to be fair the DK was indeed last at DPS in the same Premonition tests I linked. DPS can vary based on skill and stat/talent choices even more than survival, so I'm withholding judgement till I see a lot more WWS parses, but in the one set of tests their DK did indeed come in behind the prot warrior.

  18. #78
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    From Premo's test, the DK did around 3k when he had his keybinds set properly.

    It's noticeably lower than the other 3 tanks (3.2, 3.5, and 3.7). But warriors tanks used to be much lower than the other 3 tanks as well and didn't really have aggro problems. So I don't think this is cause for concern really. Especially when you see that 3k dps translates to 7.5 tps.

    BTW, did DKs get nerfed dps wise or did the other tanks get buffed/were already ahead? I didn't really look at the patch notes for non-warriors.

  19. #79
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    paladins always were ahead, no real change i think in 3.2 to make that different.

    druids were slightly ahead as well being able to wear slightly more dps friendly gear so I don't think 3.2 changed that either.

    DKs I believe used to be in the 3k range all the time. Warriors used to be in the 1.5k range. We got bumped to the same 3k range as DKs give or take. So now the numbers LOOK like DKs got nerfed, but in fact warriors just got moved up from the bottom of the barrel.

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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    Seriously? They were in response to laments over not being overpowered anymore. Responses tend to follow the lead of the OP.
    Was this really necessary? Trolling is trolling, don't bother justifying it.

    Um, please go look at the real numbers (everyone) as in terms of survivability DK's most certainly were fine in all of Premonitions tests: 3.2 Tank Tests - Premonition - Sen'jin (US)
    A Death Knight in currently great gear (not BiS but they weren't far off) can tank a Patchwerk encounter that does Algalon's damage. That is unsurprising to me, and I don't think it came as a surprise to you.

    Note that "fine" is not the same as "best". As for being behind when entirely clad in BiS gear...sorry, but balance is not made around BiS gear, and if you have it then survival is probably not the biggest issue anyways.
    You surely are correct, "fine" is NOT the same as "best." But were not Paladins "fine" last patch? The argument "you're good enough to tank the content, even if I can do it much more easily and put less strain on the healers" is completely stupid. I'm not sure where you got the impression that balance does not take best-in-slot gear into account, you might want to quote your source on that, I must have missed a GC quote.

    Yes. And more avoidance. You are on par with warriors now, with the under-represented tank classes having a very minor advantage (much more minor than the advantage DKs have had until 3.2).
    Tank stats from aforementioned Premonition tests

    I'm seeing Paladin avoidance as higher, and Druid avoidance as lower. Warrior avoidance is about the same, with the difference being less than half a percentage point. Maybe you mean the sigil, in which case let me remind you of two things:

    -The current gear level sigil does not have a 100% uptime. It's much lower, and can actually stay off if you get unlucky with avoiding attacks and cant Rune Strike.
    -The next tier's sigil adds the same avoidance bonus as the Paladin libram at the same gear level. The avoidance gap remains.


    Not what the tests showed; you are taking the same or less damage AFTER block. Sorry, but the data just doesn't square with your claim.
    I will partially concede this point. On the Patchwerk tank tests, Death Knights were taking less damage than Warriors. But on the frenzied Faerlina tests (go to the very bottom post to see damage taken per hit) you'll notice that the base hit after armor hit Warriors and Death Knights for the same amount. After block though, Death Knights are taking a good 1200+ more than Warriors, and 2000+ compared to Paladins and Druids.

    Yes, we now have higher single target threat and you have higher AOE thread. I believe it's called "flavor".
    Blood's AOE threat is pretty lackluster. We have worse AOE threat than every class but Warriors, and worse single target threat and DPS than every class. Are you really saying I don't have a leg to stand on in my complaints?

    Yes, in total BiS you end up a totally irrelevant amount behind on armor because of a sword with some bonus armor. It makes not an iota of difference.
    How so?

    In the tests shown in normal progression gear you are just find; you are tied with warriors (after block) and not even a percent behind pallies and druids.
    Source please!

    Again, I'm sorry but this is hyperbole...and I'm a warrior, so I'm on the "bottom" with you. Everyone is so much closer post 3.2 than they were pre 3.2 that this complaint comes off as disingenuous and self serving QQ. Yes, DK tanking is now more difficult than it was pre 3.2. It's still easier than it was for pallies or warriors pre 3.2, and druids and pally base survival is not even a percent better than yours and mine is given equal gear/skill. It's so small that regemming, a single good upgrade, or just having a bit better grasp of your class all easily outweigh the differences on most encounters. On magic-heavy bosses druids may have a bit of an advantage, but on slow hard hitters they probably won't. On single-target DPS races DKs will be a bit behind, on AOE encounters they (and pallies) will be a bit ahead.
    I disagree!

    The sky is not falling, and humorous responses to a thread complaining about the death of DK OPness are not inherently evil.
    The death of DK OPness, and the death of Frost and Unholy being viable tanking specs for any hardmode that had any danger to the tank. You're so focused on DKs having been overpowered with Icebound Fortitude that you forget things. Like how Frost has only one cooldown now, and are arguably WORSE than Paladins were in 3.1 (Slightly more passive avoidance, but now with Holy Shield on a TWO MINUTE COOLDOWN!).

    How, most Death Knights won't duplicate a spec like the one Devium used in the Premonition tank tests, and how most tank builds in general cant afford Veteran of the Third War if they want to get their highest level talents, among which is the talent that allows DKs to be AOE tanks on par with Paladins in threat (Howling Blast). And without Veteran of the Third War, the health gap becomes even wider than it is now. We have been balanced around always taking a talent that ensures you cant get the maximum... Oh what's a good word... I believe you said, "flavor?" out of their spec.

    So to sum up! We have one viable tank tree (that is roughly tied with the worst of the 4 tank classes, Warriors), one almost-viable tank tree that has extremely weak passive defense, but a suitably-decent cooldown, and one tank tree that is so far behind everyone else that you might as well save yourself the trouble and respec Blood now.

    Also, I love the post before about how we as tanks can only be outdpsed by DPS Warriors. It really shows just how ingrained the mentality of Death Knights being the strongest at everything is. I wonder how long it will take for that to disappear? Heh.

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