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Thread: DK QQ -- 3.2 and beyond

  1. #41
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    Edge, you should scope out Xav's Patchwerk test. His tanks/values put DK, Warrior, and Bear threat roughly even, and Paladin threat a head above.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    YES! This thread needed more bacon. COLOSSAL Bacon. With immense psychological impact
    What have I done?

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  3. #43
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    only thing i really don't like about this patch is how self heal has become our block in blizz their eyes. i mean in it self i don't have a problem with it, when managed right they do the job just fine. all in all though i'd say as blood we are pretty balanced for now.

    just frost and unholy are just meh. i just run naxx25 for fun today using an unholy build but using death strike in stead of scourge strike. the healing was very nice, but boy did the threat suck. sure i stayed ahead of the dps but it was a pug with the best dps doing close to 3k, that less then half from what half my guilds dps do, i know i shouldn't have come with these numbers to my guild, unless i want some officers yelling at me to stop slacking. fine you could say i'm stupid bc scourge strike is unholy their strike and i should use that, but that means i'm having no block equivalent at all and that's the big problem i have and had before. self heals are getting to powerfull and blizz is nerfing our class accordingly, however only one spec has truely acces to it. 1disease frost is totally screwed an 2disease frost and unholy at best can away with using it when their hp dips down a lot. but then they will have healed way less then what block has blocked.

    also for me i don't see a lot of problems i'll still be tanking, probably will be pushed some more to dps on bosses when we have tanks spare then before, but next tier the roles just might change again so that's not something i worry about. however i did some heroics on my alt aswell with an alt dk from my guild tanking. and boy was he strugling. i can't imagine ever struggling that much when i started tanking heroics on my dk. i also ran a heroic with our paladin tank (together with me and a warrior the best geared tanks of the guild) and boy was it a joke, it made my dk look bad. not that it hasn't been like that for ages, but i do think it's time for that to change aswell when they have another good look at tanks balance.

    lastly and this is just a personal thingie, now that we are all balanced out i think it's time to make blade barrier passive. sure i have a 98-99% uptime on it, but it isn't 100% and it generally isn't up at the important moments like fe the start.

    ps: looks in envy at other guilds feral mt's hp wondering why my hp was op and his isn't.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by wazdaa View Post
    ps: looks in envy at other guilds feral mt's hp wondering why my hp was op and his isn't.
    Actually druids were OP, and they got nerfed also in 3.2. They have much lower avoidance, which is why they get extra HP.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    SO STOP WITH THE SHIELD CRAP! THE SHIELD ITSELF ISNT ANYTHING! IT ISNT WHAT MAKES US BETTER OR WORSE!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    In certain situations it is. In almost all multiple mob scenarios a shield is a huge mitigating factor for survival, especially on paladins and especially now. Stop pretending like it doesn't make a difference.
    (I am in no way advocating that DK's didn't need a baseline nerf, just that shields are certainly advantages in different situations)
    You should perhaps have read the full post Kaze made, rather than responding only to this line. He was noting that the shield-as-an-item-in-a-slot doesn't make a difference. Block makes things different, sure, but the armor and other stats on the shield aren't significant. Here's what he said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    I still don't get this..
    having a shield allows us to block. sure... you can say that then, that you don't have block, cuz THAT is what separates us. NOT the shield itself.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  6. #46
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    Actually Tom, the druid avoidance isn't horribly behind the other tanks from what I've seen, though bears did get the biggest bite since they have no parry to offset the dodge loss, and raid buffed Agility was a big deal for their dodge.

    The reason Bear health is still leaps and bounds ahead of the rest is the amount of % stam scaling they get. Even from buffs it becomes a bit silly.

    Bears get 25% bonus from the shift, 10% more from one talent, 6% more from another, then from buffs you get another 10% stam and 2% stam (Kings/Sanc, and Imp GotW).

    So, that's a grand total of ~63.5% more stamina all tolled, compared to, say, a Blood DK who also wants to stack health for class mechanics. The DK gets 3% from talents, 6% from stance, then 10% and 2% from buffs for a total of ~22.5%. Now apply that bonus to, say, Imp Fort. Imp Fort will give 215 stamina. For the DK that will be +2634 health, but for the bear that will be +3515 health. So the Bear is getting almost 1k more health just from one other buff because of the % gain difference.

    You can say leather gear has less stam on it than tanking plate, but then consider the contribution from gems. A 30 Stam gem is 368 health per to the DK, while it is 491 health each to the Bear. Average 7 or so gems for each tanks gear and the margin on gemming has gained the bear another 1k health. Then look at enchants, etc.

    Bears get loads of health, but personally I don't think they need to come down. Instead I'd just like to see Blood DKs get some of that love back, bring up the baseline for Frost/Unholy DKs, and Warriors (Pallies are doing alright, but maybe a tiny dial up). Though that's me loving my health. I doubt that any of it is actually needed.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    In certain situations it is. In almost all multiple mob scenarios a shield is a huge mitigating factor for survival, especially on paladins and especially now. Stop pretending like it doesn't make a difference.
    (I am in no way advocating that DK's didn't need a baseline nerf, just that shields are certainly advantages in different situations)
    Again, this is BLOCKING that makes multi mob small trash advantageous to warriors/paladins. NOT the shield itself. When people point at the wrong source of a problem/solution then you get misconceptions about it.

    People have been saying "but warriors have shields" for a long time. as if the shield did anything, the SHIELD balances our stats to match DKs. the ONLY extra thing we gain from it is Block, and if THATs the problem, SAY BLOCK.

    Damnit, Hypatia jumped in before me.

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  8. #48
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    Also, don't forget that situations with many mobs DON'T MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!

    When in current progression (i.e., difficult, challenging fights) has a tank had to worry about dealing with a ton of mobs that each hit for around 3-5k, very frequently?

    Personally, I can't remember any of these, AT ALL, so I don't know why anybody who cares about main tanking raid bosses would be upset that another class is better at tanking tons of weak mobs.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odwome View Post
    Also, don't forget that situations with many mobs DON'T MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!

    When in current progression (i.e., difficult, challenging fights) has a tank had to worry about dealing with a ton of mobs that each hit for around 3-5k, very frequently?

    Personally, I can't remember any of these, AT ALL, so I don't know why anybody who cares about main tanking raid bosses would be upset that another class is better at tanking tons of weak mobs.
    Alone in the Darkness comes to mind. Phase 3 consists entirely of accumulating adds that are beaten into a form where their damage is fairly minimal - while their damage numbers do increase during the beacon heals, this is quickly addressed to keep them in a reasonable level (else, the tank's survivability is impossible). The damage-per-add needs to float under the ~10k each mark if any hope of sustaining the fight is intended. When the empowering shadows buff is not active, they are all in or under the listed 3k-5k range.

    I'd also consider a 10% difference in damage to be noticable, if not outright crippling. In that light, Algalon's offhand and special attacks tend to range from 6k-9k per swing, occuring on an average frequency just under a second. While I understand that "no one" stacks block, 600 BV was realistic back in Serpentshrine Cavern - even while somewhat avoiding the stat, I can't see it being under that mark. According to our WWS information prior to 3.1, our paladin is blocking roughly 8%-12% of all incoming melee damage (which includes the significantly larger mainhand attacks). Last night's data includes the reworked block value mechanics. In this parse, Lyrone's total blocked melee damage is equal to 21.95% of all melee damage taken (306,356 damage partially blocked, 1,395,248 melee damage taken). (EDIT: For clarification, that's not a 22% damage reduction. The unblocked damage would have been 1,701,604, meaning it's an 18.00% damage reduction via block. Also, that only includes damage from autoattack; special abilities were not included.)

    Thus, I submit as examples where block value can be a non-trivial element Zero-keeper Yogg-saron and Algalon. Arguably, these are not only two progression encounters, but explicitly the two most difficult and prestigious encounters currently available.

    -Splug
    Last edited by Splug; 08-06-2009 at 01:01 PM.

  10. #50
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    Point taken, Splug. A couple things though:

    1) I'm talking from a warrior standpoint, where block is not a guaranteed mitigation device. In my current gear, I'm avoiding block rating like the plague and I'm sitting at around 13%. In raid buffs, I have around 1700 block value. With these values, Algalon's offhand attack (hitting for around 6-9k) would be mitigated by an average of 3.8%, not counting the use of the shield block ability. Here is my calculation:

    (1700 block value * 1.3 for critical block * 13% block chance) / [(6,000 + 9,000)/2] = 0.0383

    To include the shield block ability, you can assume a 25% uptime. If shield block gives a flat 100% increase (and I don't believe it affects every source of block value), then that would give:

    (3400 block value * 1.3 for critical block * 100% block chance) / [(6,000 + 9,000) / 2] = 0.5893

    Combining these two values gets a value of (0.75 * 0.0383) + (0.25 * 0.5893) = .17605, or 17.61% damage reduction, only on those fast, low damage attacks.

    Also, I am fairly sure that using shield block at 1700 block value will not raise your value to 3400, so this is much higher of a total reduction than it actually is. Furthermore, this would only be reducing 7.5k damage taken per second down to 6,179 dtps.

    I don't know the numbers from Algalon's mainhand swings, but I am fairly sure that this reduction of less than 1500 damage taken per second would not be significant enough to warrant using a warrior over any other class for this reason alone.

    If block were stacked, then I might come to a different result, except for the fact that stacking block value and block rating, which is necessary to make it good enough of a mitigation tool to actually be noticeable on bosses, completely gimps warriors in the field of actual avoidance, threat production, armor, and stamina. It would be pointless to try to get block capped with 3k unbuffed block value (which I am pretty sure is impossible so far), if doing so would reduce your actual avoidance by ~10%, your health by however many stamina gems you would have to replace, your armor by however much you could obtain on your items that you would need to replace for block gear.

    I see your point that I was incorrect about blocking being completely useless on progression bosses, seeing that Algalon and Yogg with zero keepers both have mechanics that make block somewhat useful, but I still maintain that block is a seriously flawed mechanic for tanking raid bosses, especially considering that, in order to make it good on a boss fight, either block values would have to be so high that a blocking tank would be seriously overpowered on anything that hit weaker than a raid boss, or the raid boss would have to hit so much more rapidly (on the order of multiple hits per second) than current bosses, which I don't think is something that Blizzard would change.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
    No more solo tanking Vezax anymore, we'll have to use external CDs now
    Inaccurate. A competent Unholy DK has two cooldowns, both on 2 min CDs, IBF & Boneshield. Obviously on Boneshield you're going to want any help your raid can provide. At the same time, with all the 2 min trinkets, it can be very viable to spam Boneshield/Trinket/Trinket as a macro and hope it's enough.

    Also, while a notable threat loss, Death Strike functions equally well for self healing while spec'ed Unholy.

    I'm pretty sure this will suffice. I'm going to see how this works out, since the alternative choice of our warrior isn't an option tonight.

  12. #52
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    I haven't had any issues after these nerfs. I lost about 4k hp and 3kish armor, but regemming with epics brought my loss back up some, as well as the buffs to the professions. Haven't done Vezax yet, but alternating cooldowns seems like it'll be fine still. Obviously IBF is better for it than the others, but nothing else is so terrible on its own, can even use external cooldowns as necessary, I figure pair VB with trinkets, etc. Certainly doable. Where I was at around 52k hp pre-patch in my normal gear with sta weapon, it's now like 49k, I mean really that's still more than enough. The QQ is tiresome.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odwome View Post
    (1700 block value * 1.3 for critical block * 13% block chance) / [(6,000 + 9,000)/2] = 0.0383
    This may not be the correct way to present the numbers you're looking at. If we're comparing the effect of having block relative to the effect of not having it, you'd want to use the percentage of hits which are blocked, not the percentage of total swings. Using (block% / (1 - avoidance%)) instead of your pure block chance would achieve this value. At 55% avoidance, you'd see an 8.51% damage reduction with respect to not blocking, without including the shield block ability's uptime.

    Due to the tank transitions involved in the encounter, it may be possible to increase the effective uptime of shield block beyond 25% as well, due to the offtank having the boss for part of the ability's downtime. As I do not have any 40-second cooldowns, I haven't had to figure out how that fits into the rotation; it may work out that the window's about the right size that it still only has 25% uptime.

    The mainhand swings are in the range of 20-22k, meaning each successful block only contributes a ~7-8% damage reduction (or an average of about 3%).

    Other Ulduar encounters which involve tanking multiple small entities: Razorscale P1 (Dwarves), Thorim P1 (Dwarves and Vrykul), Mimiron P3 (Junk bots), Kologarn (Rubble). This brings the count to 7 out of 14 boss encounters (6 if you discount the short-lived rubble on Kologarn) in Ulduar which include phases or alternate difficulties with large amounts of small, fast hits. If anything, I'd say that's a fair case that encounters where block value produces a non-trivial effect are already quite abundant, if not omnipresent. Given the comparison is against the reactive heal from death strike (which may or may not be reasonably available depending on spec and threat demands), it doesn't take very much to make block value acceptable if not impressive in comparison. I believe the perfect storm for death knight healing is Vezax, and even there the contribution of my net effective healing had topped out around 10% - significantly lower than the preventative effect block value demonstrated for Algalon this week by our paladin. Unfortunately, our 25-man raid group does not include a regular prot warrior (and we do not log 10-man content), so I cannot provide direct parses from our raids as comparison.

    -Splug
    Last edited by Splug; 08-06-2009 at 02:14 PM.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Edge, you should scope out Xav's Patchwerk test. His tanks/values put DK, Warrior, and Bear threat roughly even, and Paladin threat a head above.
    That's why I said DPS AND threat
    It isn't a huge difference, but the values aren't something to complain about in the scheme of thing.

    Edit- By through the roof I meant in comparison with TPS values that DPS classes put out. Threat simply isn't an issue, ever.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Most people don't mention the shield just for the armor/stats, anyone with any competence or experience with wow realizes that other factors even those out.They mention the shield FOR the blocking.
    I'll side with Kaz here, there's been a LOT of discussion on the forums by people that clearly had no idea how shields work, and thought they provided a lot of mitigation aside from the block mechanic.

  16. #56
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    Be specific and don't generalize, this is how things like a "defense cap" get ingrained in the minds of new players and it becomes an everlasting struggle to convince people that it's WRONG and a misnomer.

    You don't find a problem then point at something else for the blame, you blame the source of the actual problem, and in this case, you feel it's the BLOCKING mechanic. So say so.
    Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 08-06-2009 at 11:55 PM.

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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Actually Tom, the druid avoidance isn't horribly behind the other tanks from what I've seen, though bears did get the biggest bite since they have no parry to offset the dodge loss, and raid buffed Agility was a big deal for their dodge.
    Semantics; coming in a thread where people implied the sky is falling over losing 2% of their avoidance I would have thought by those standards that druids are "significantly behind" the other tanks. Either way I just meant that the one is supposed to offset the other (whether it's true or not is something I believe you will be exploring in another thread).

    The reason Bear health is still leaps and bounds ahead of the rest is the amount of % stam scaling they get. Even from buffs it becomes a bit silly.
    Now we're just arguing ultimate vs. proximate causes. Yes, the reason that druids have more health is because of how their abilities/scaling are constructed, I was just trying to provide a soundbite on why they are designed that way.

    Bears get loads of health, but personally I don't think they need to come down. Instead I'd just like to see Blood DKs get some of that love back, bring up the baseline for Frost/Unholy DKs, and Warriors (Pallies are doing alright, but maybe a tiny dial up). Though that's me loving my health. I doubt that any of it is actually needed.
    Yeah, blizz apparently likes how hard things are for warriors right now, so unless they change their policy discrepancies will be resolved by bringing druids down towards warrior level (witness: DKs in 3.2). It's very worthwhile to try and establish whether there is still a survivability delta between the classes that means much of anything (I'm not sure there is, although the HP stacking druids will certainly do better in some encounters), but it's more or less futile to make arguments about buffing everyone else to a higher level as long as the devs like the current base difficulty level.

  18. #58
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    Ugh. The snarky replies on the first page were distressing. According to Premonition's tests, and Glutton's post on the official forums here: Tanks in highest-end 3.2 gear Death Knights are most certainly not "fine."

    In current gear we have lower threat, dps, and effective health than Paladins and Druids, and that's WITH Veteran of the Third War, which in all honesty (assuming Blizzard wants all 3 DK specs to tank) most tanking builds just won't be able to afford. 2/3 of DK tanks cant even get a talent that tries and fails to close the gap in health. On the PTR Death Knights were taking about the same amount of damage as an equivalently geared Warrior, and that's before Block. So let me just remind you:

    Death Knights are currently Warriors without block.

    (Oh, but after the Devastate buff, Warriors also have higher threat and DPS).

    The kicker is that in the best gear available in 3.2's raids, Death Knights also have lower ARMOR than Warriors and Paladins due to a sword with bonus armor on it. We are now the absolute bottom of the barrel, and it is stupidly obvious that we need either a block mechanic, or a partial or full revert of the changes to Frost Presence and Toughness.

    Warriors are also not where they need to be, but currently the disparity between Death Knights/Warriors and Druids/Paladins is so massive you have to wonder what the devs were thinking. I lost roughly 3000 health fully raid buffed, and 2% avoidance. My armor went down as well. Atleast I'm Blood so I can still tank, just non-optimally. This patch completely broke Frost as a viable tank spec, it lacks the second defensive cooldown necessary to survive high, predictable spike damage. Unholy has the lowest effective health of any tank, even below Warriors. Bone Shield barely keeps them viable, but there's no reason to tank as anything but Blood right now.

    It certainly doesn't help that we're now the only tank whose defensive cooldowns require a vital resource (Blood rune not available and you need to use Vampiric Blood? Too fucking bad. Rune Strike macro eat the last of your RP and now you're stuck with no AMS for a Fusion Punch? Guess what? It's a wipe, unless your 5 minute empower cooldown is up.), and we're also the only tanks who lack the ability to debuff the attack power of their target (it was fine when just Druids and Warriors had it, but now that Paladins do, too, it's time to roll it into Blood Plague).
    Last edited by GBF; 08-06-2009 at 04:07 PM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Most people don't mention the shield just for the armor/stats, anyone with any competence or experience with wow realizes that other factors even those out.
    They mention the shield FOR the blocking.
    Considering that for a long time Pallies pointed at the ranged slot versus the libram as a huge stat imbalance between them and warriors.

    Also lots of DK's have complained about the huge stat imbalance that having a shield is (although that's mostly dialed down since DK stats used to so heavily outshine warriors, although it's starting to come back with the Frost Presence nerf).

    So Kaz's point about precision is a valid one.

    Besides, Druids have always managed to complain how they lacked block. I've never heard a Druid complain about lacking a shield.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splug View Post
    This may not be the correct way to present the numbers you're looking at. If we're comparing the effect of having block relative to the effect of not having it, you'd want to use the percentage of hits which are blocked, not the percentage of total swings. Using (block% / (1 - avoidance%)) instead of your pure block chance would achieve this value. At 55% avoidance, you'd see an 8.51% damage reduction with respect to not blocking, without including the shield block ability's uptime.
    Point conceded. I did forget to take that into account

    Due to the tank transitions involved in the encounter, it may be possible to increase the effective uptime of shield block beyond 25% as well, due to the offtank having the boss for part of the ability's downtime. As I do not have any 40-second cooldowns, I haven't had to figure out how that fits into the rotation; it may work out that the window's about the right size that it still only has 25% uptime.
    I don't know the fight nearly well enough to attest to whether or not that would actually work out in favor, so I won't attempt to do so.

    The mainhand swings are in the range of 20-22k, meaning each successful block only contributes a ~7-8% damage reduction (or an average of about 3%).
    Okay, so it's worth about the same overall against dangerous attacks as Blessing of Sanctuary? That is exactly my point, that against seriously-damaging attacks, ones that pose a threat to tank survival, block does very little to help a tank survive.

    Other Ulduar encounters which involve tanking multiple small entities: Razorscale P1 (Dwarves), Thorim P1 (Dwarves and Vrykul), Mimiron P3 (Junk bots), Kologarn (Rubble). This brings the count to 7 out of 14 boss encounters (6 if you discount the short-lived rubble on Kologarn) in Ulduar which include phases or alternate difficulties with large amounts of small, fast hits. If anything, I'd say that's a fair case that encounters where block value produces a non-trivial effect are already quite abundant, if not omnipresent. Given the comparison is against the reactive heal from death strike (which may or may not be reasonably available depending on spec and threat demands), it doesn't take very much to make block value acceptable if not impressive in comparison. I believe the perfect storm for death knight healing is Vezax, and even there the contribution of my net effective healing had topped out around 10% - significantly lower than the preventative effect block value demonstrated for Algalon this week by our paladin. Unfortunately, our 25-man raid group does not include a regular prot warrior (and we do not log 10-man content), so I cannot provide direct parses from our raids as comparison.
    Razorscale P1: There is no threat of any tank dying, except if they stand inside the blue fire, or if they have the large vykrul on them and do not receive heals. Block hardly makes any difference here, since it's already so simple and unlikely for any type of tank to die.

    Thorim P1: I've never seen any wipe occur because of a tank taking too much damage, it's always been because either the DPS wasn't able to down the adds to quickly, or a tank missed one of the adds and let it beat on a healer too long. In this situation, having block and stacking it to the point of usefulness would actually be detrimental, seeing as how doing so necessarily also leads to having terrible threat generation stats (particularly hit rating).

    Mimiron P3: Similarly, the tank is not in danger of dying. Lowering the damage of the junk bots is inconsequential, because any healer should be able to heal any tank through it without a problem. If your healers were having a problem healing through that damage, then I don't know how they would be able to heal P2 or P4 in this same fight. Also, stacking block to make the junk bots easier would be completely pointless, since the tank doing that would not be fit to be the tank for P1 or P4, so you would have to be bringing in an extra tank.

    Kologarn: Stone Nova's damage can't be blocked, and the stacking debuff on that would quickly amplify their melee damage outside of any range where block values would be helpful if it were allowed to stack. Also, I've never seen any tank die to it, seeing as how they are burned down almost as soon as they spawn.

    I really believe you're overestimating the amount of damage that is prevented by block, and by the amount of actual usefulness it provides. Obviously I wish that we had the numbers for how much block reduces for a warrior on Algalon for comparison, but since we don't have it, I don't want to be making even more assumptions than I already have.

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