I lost about 3500Originally Posted by Satorri
Still a much needed nerf.
DKs are fine, shields are terrible. Pre-3.2, the DK tank in my guild had 1000 more HP than I, despite me having more or equal stamina on every piece of gear (I checked). Also had far superior armor that last time we compared (pre-3.1).
Oh no, equality.
I lost about 3500
Still a much needed nerf.
I still don't get this..
WHAT DOES HAVING A SHIELD DO WITH ANYTHING.
YOU KEEP BRINGING THIS UP AND IT DRIVES ME CRAZY!!!!
/calmdown
having a shield allows us to block. sure... you can say that then, that you don't have block, cuz THAT is what separates us. NOT the shield itself. THE SHIELD, gives us ARMOR, but only enough ARMOR to match up with you guys. It gives us Stam and stats, but only enough so that stats from 1hand + shield = 2hander which you and bears ALREAYD HAVE.
SO STOP WITH THE SHIELD CRAP! THE SHIELD ITSELF ISNT ANYTHING! IT ISNT WHAT MAKES US BETTER OR WORSE!!!!!
They didn't need to nerf our health, they needed to buff warrior health. The armor, IBF CD, and the rest was fine to nerf though. =)
I suppose if you twisted my arm, we needed it to bring Blood down a notch or two as the healing was getting superfluous, but they left Bears with laughably larger health pools than us before and after the patch.
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
-----------------------------------------
zomg Kaze your shield makes you OP!
I wish I had a shield like you!! Then I could be OP too. Because I am not, was not, nor ever will be OP. I just do(did) 1500 hps on myself as a tank...
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
-----------------------------------------
I don't think the change was that bad, sure the loss of 3k health was tough, but its done and time to move on. I had no issues tanking the new 25man, and no issues when we went into Ulduar afterwards.
I think it should still be possible to single tank General, just need to rotate your cool downs with any raid cool downs that can be thrown at you.
I've got a warrior MT, myself at prolly #2, then two paladins & a druid app. It's going to be interesting as we hit ulduar, as that's also the gear & raid experience rankings. Hopefully, a run will give us enough chances to sort out if the AD change makes gear/experience meaningless on some fights.
I want a pony.
Wait, this class gets a pony, just have to figure out how to push 1 first.
I'm good.
On a serious note - there was a baseline mitigation minor skew before, such that death knights had an edge over comparably geared warriors/paladins. This was coupled with a higher uptime on the primary cooldown. The skew is now reversed, such that warriors/paladins will have a minor edge in the form of block value - health, armor, and avoidance numbers I've seen are quite comparable. But the average puggie doesn't pay attention to anything beyond the base HP value on the tank they pull in, so I'm guessing a lot of the official forums "deathknights are overpowered" buzz should die down with a much smaller outcry as the masses won't bother to look at the actual effects of block value. Healing throughput from deathstrike assuages the effect, but has poor support in frost/unholy trees.
Realistically, the net changes of the patch are not blatantly visible given the healing situation and the content available. Overhealing and bacon of light are going to dwarf the results of the death knight changes, and if that change was enough to overshoot the delta with the warrior/paladin state, then realistically the difference between death knights and other tanks with respect to throughput mitigation is even smaller. I really do blame the psychological effects of having more/less raw health being more visible than block value for a lot of the mass hysteria in the first place; now there may or may not be an outcry about having no block value mechanic, but it doesn't show up on unit frames as something easily visible so I doubt it becomes quite the ragefest we saw for deathknight health.
IBF going to two minutes is only a problem for frost, which doesn't have a percentage-based secondary cooldown to swap into the other one-minute interval. Personally, I wasn't using bone shield / vampiric blood often at all because IBF was always available. Now I'll just pull those in on overy other prior-IBF point and call it close enough.
EDIT: In short, I retain the following complaints regarding the deathknight class: frost and unholy lack proper support for death strike (either in healing value for frost, or in threat generation for unholy), unbreakable armor does not fulfill a needed role against large single hits, rune/runic power costs on cooldowns are irritating if not problematic, pony is more complicated to obtain than paladin equivalent. Of those, the last two concerns have nil effect on the rest of the raid, and thus can be discarded as "class flavor."
-Splug
Last edited by Splug; 08-05-2009 at 11:31 AM.
I feel fine as long as I'm not comparing myself to our main pally tank (we split MT duties fairly evenly pre-patch and we have similar gear). Tanking doesn't feel that different (except the longer IBF cd, which suuuucks), but when we actually sat down and compared notes with each other, I came off worse across the board. His slight health advantage from gear got larger (I lost about 1k, he gained about 1k). He has the same damage reduction as I do (as a frost DK with Imp Frost Presence) and more magic damage reduction. IBF and Divine Protection are on the same cd now, but Divine Protection has more damage reduction. And while I used to have more straight avoidance, it seems that the way the dodge/parry changes shook out for us we're about even except he has a block value.
Kinda sad, we used to /roll for who got to tank bosses in our Uld25 runs, now there's really no good reason not to have him MT everything we see. =\
Ah well, I guess I can console myself with my my buffed shaman and, I don't want to say fixed, but, well, less broken, frost mage.
One interesting note, Looking over the recount parse from last night, I took alot less damage then he did during the new dungeon, which is a plus. I will take any good news at this point
Paladins get holy pork products?!
QQ i want meat from god too!
YES! This thread needed more bacon. COLOSSAL Bacon. With immense psychological impact
Strong sig candidate for me, this one
You forget their threat.
Kinda sad, we used to /roll for who got to tank bosses in our Uld25 runs, now there's really no good reason not to have him MT everything we see. =\
That's the point; DK are not broken, they can tank fine, but I cant see any reason to make them tank any boss over a similarly geared/skilled *insert a class* tank; well at least compared to pally and bear (war are probably in the same case than us, however I dont have a similarly geared/skilled war to compare to in my guild).
And I can see many reason to put a pally or bear as a tank. pally: threat (aoe and single), 30% reduction on any dangerous hit, consistent damage taken; bear: high HP pool, switch between tank and ok dps (more for OT but it's still a point to put them as tank), 1min CD (maybe not as powerfull as IBF used to be but it's still on 1min).
I agree with Satorri, the HP nerf was uncalled for.
In my guild I tank on my warrior together with a DK tank,
and before 3.2 our HP was close (I had a bit more unbuffed,
and he had a bit more buffed), but he consistently tanked
vezzax because of his higher armor, more cooldowns, and a bit
more avoidance.
After 3.2, our armor and avoidance evened out, but he fell way
behind on HP. As it stands now, it seems I will take priority on
that kind of fight given that I seem to have a better single target
TPS that was buffed even more in the patch, and he has lost much
of his survivability edge.
Having just done UD 25 tonight I do have to say I noticed a big difference, I wasn't expecting to notice much but oh boy did I get smashed.
My stat changes between 3.1.3 and 3.2 were:
I lost 2k health unbuffed (after I regemmed all new epics) and 3something k buffed and about 1200 armour, avoidance wasn't much.. I pretty much gained in parry what I lost in dodge.
Now I'm pretty well geared and our healers are really good so it wasn't that, I just got pwnt.. sad really.
I did dps for a few bosses and noticed quite a difference in dps, everything seemed to be better dps wise.
As a druid, I'd just like to chime in here...
Now, it's our turn, strike while the iron is hot... and the fur is multi-colored!
"Ultimately, making the blanket statement '25m content is harder, period' is at best an overstatement and at worst ignorant drivel." Garrek
Woot for bear butts with more polygons and pretty new shadings!
The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
-----------------------------------------
DK threat and damage output is still through the roof in comparison.
In certain situations it is. In almost all multiple mob scenarios a shield is a huge mitigating factor for survival, especially on paladins and especially now. Stop pretending like it doesn't make a difference.
(I am in no way advocating that DK's didn't need a baseline nerf, just that shields are certainly advantages in different situations)
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