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Thread: I thought 540 crit immunity was subject to DR?

  1. #1
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    I thought 540 crit immunity was subject to DR?

    I always gear as tightly to 540 defense as possible for raids, for the 5.6% crit reduction (as was the case in BC 490 - 5.6%). In BC, you were crit immune. I was under the impression that the jump from 539 defense to 540 defense decreased your chances to be crit by a raid boss by 0.04% (pre-DR), but did not make you completely crit immune. Due to my thinking, the difference between 539 and 540 was ONLY this 0.04%, and not critable to non-critable.

    I've read the FAQs, but I think I've read so much that I've overloaded myself with information. Does 540 provide 100% crit immunity or not? If not, then why is 539 regarded as so much worse than 540, instead of just 0.04% worse (1 in 2500 chance to be crit). What am I not understanding?

  2. #2
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    the DR on defense affects Miss chance only, not crit reduction. That is not subject to DR.

    539 is bad compared to 540 is because .04% of the time is enough of a chance to throw a monkey wrench into your healers rotations.

    A crit is a LOT of extra damage. if a boss crits, you're almost gonna die guaranteed, especially with how hard bosses hit now. even having a .04% chance is terrible because you could be 4% away from a boss kill and suddenly that .04% RNG comes and thwomps you dead. Yes it is small, but as tanks, we are here to eliminate any possibility we can die by any means necessary, and this is a FOR SURE way to remove a double damage attack from ever coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    the DR on defense affects Miss chance only, not crit reduction. That is not subject to DR.

    539 is bad compared to 540 is because .04% of the time is enough of a chance to throw a monkey wrench into your healers rotations.

    A crit is a LOT of extra damage. if a boss crits, you're almost gonna die guaranteed, especially with how hard bosses hit now. even having a .04% chance is terrible because you could be 4% away from a boss kill and suddenly that .04% RNG comes and thwomps you dead. Yes it is small, but as tanks, we are here to eliminate any possibility we can die by any means necessary, and this is a FOR SURE way to remove a double damage attack from ever coming.
    So 540 is 100% crit immunity, or just 0.04% less crit chance as if someone had 541? I was under the impression that it was the latter.

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    There is no such thing as crit immune. A level 55 in BRD crit me the other day because they have an ability to increase their crit chance. Mobs in HoL and the vykrul by the blighted pool also have a buff that increases their crit chance.

    540 defense gives 5.6% chance not to be crit. All mobs have a 5% chance to crit + .2% based on target level - your level x .2%. Since bosses are 83 they have a 5.6% chance to crit you. Some bosses such as thorim can lower your defense and crit you even though he himself still only has a 5.6% chance to crit you now have lower than 5.6% crit reduction.



  5. #5
    Hmm, 540 is the new 490, you should be immune to raid boss crits at 540. I do remember reading something about your character sheet might show 540 but not have the full def rating for crit immunity... but that's hazy and I'm not 100% sure on that...

    Grom

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grombrindal View Post
    Hmm, 540 is the new 490, you should be immune to raid boss crits at 540. I do remember reading something about your character sheet might show 540 but not have the full def rating for crit immunity... but that's hazy and I'm not 100% sure on that...

    Grom

    This was for druids who only needed 415 defense in bc to not be crit by raid bosses.

    the problem was with rounding and at 415 defense several different values of defense rating still returned 415 defense skill. Only 1 of those actually gave you the true return of 415.



  7. #7
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    540 is 100% completely crit immune against mobs who are lvl 83 aka raid bosses - any thing over that number adds to your other avoidance stats such as dodge/parry and block and is the best way to build up those stats so you should certainly keep stacking defence after 540 (although don't gem for it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    There is no such thing as crit immune. A level 55 in BRD crit me the other day because they have an ability to increase their crit chance. Mobs in HoL and the vykrul by the blighted pool also have a buff that increases their crit chance.

    540 defense gives 5.6% chance not to be crit. All mobs have a 5% chance to crit + .2% based on target level - your level x .2%. Since bosses are 83 they have a 5.6% chance to crit you. Some bosses such as thorim can lower your defense and crit you even though he himself still only has a 5.6% chance to crit you now have lower than 5.6% crit reduction.
    This statement has questionable utility because of a couple factors
    1) The most common type of enemy is the one that doesn't have abnormally high crit chances
    2) The few that do(or can force you into crittability) have their damage output tuned around that, otherwise there is no point in having high Defense in the first place.

    So yes, there are a half dozen technical differences and situations where 540 defense doesn't mean a lot, but the norm is still: You want 540 defense so mobs don't turn your head into chunky salsa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    This statement has questionable utility because of a couple factors
    1) The most common type of enemy is the one that doesn't have abnormally high crit chances
    2) The few that do(or can force you into crittability) have their damage output tuned around that, otherwise there is no point in having high Defense in the first place.

    So yes, there are a half dozen technical differences and situations where 540 defense doesn't mean a lot, but the norm is still: You want 540 defense so mobs don't turn your head into chunky salsa.
    I was simply pointing out that the term defense cap is completely wrong. Can your character sheet display a number higher than 540, yes. Therefore there is no defense cap.

    You want 5.6% crit reduction from some combination of defense and resilience I never said otherwise.



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    Sorry if you misunderstanded it but I talked about the feel you gave that one can never be crit immune because of the odd boss/mob. That is of questionable utility because it's not the norm, and thus it should be looked at on a very case-specific basis(and sometimes there is nothing to do about it). I never said there is a defense cap, nor countered the fact you can't be crit immune by the letter of what an Immunity is.

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    It's better to understand it completely in the way darksend said it then to give people false hope of once you reach 540, all crits disappear off the face of the earth, because they don't. Duel a mage, he'll crit you. fight one of the fire mobs in stormpeaks, they'll buff and crit you. Fight a mob that lowers your defense, and you'll get crit.

    Fight a regular mob or boss that doesn't do any of the above? nope, never see a crit.

    See, this is important because then people understand that 5.6% isn't some MAGICAL made up number, it is in fact the number created by the level difference between you and a raid level boss (83). That's the same reason why heroic bosses (lvl 82) only need 5.4% crit immunity, and 81 mobs are 5.2% and same level are 5.0.

    This then clears up future questions about resilience stacking with defense for uncrittability, it's simple once you realize they DO work together, you just take both add together > 5.6 = you're set.

    It also prevents the odd "ZOMG I GOT CRIT LOOK!" thread that sprouts up every month or so claiming that every mob has a .00000000000000001% chance to crit no matter what (ridiculous!)

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    It also prevents the odd "ZOMG I GOT CRIT LOOK!" thread that sprouts up every month or so claiming that every mob has a .00000000000000001% chance to crit no matter what (ridiculous!)
    ZOMG I GOT CRIT! ...yes x is still bound to sit ...yes i do use my alt key for keybinds


    Pretty sure the above scenario is the reason for almost every crit thread by people over 5.6% crit reduction.

  13. #13
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    one thing is also to go by def rating, not def skill. i dont know the numbers for dk/druid, but 689 rating is where you want to be.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenox View Post
    If not, then why is 539 regarded as so much worse than 540, instead of just 0.04% worse (1 in 2500 chance to be crit). What am I not understanding?
    Apart from all the other explanations already given, here's something to consider.

    A 1 in 2500 chance to get a crit works out to basically (especially in Ulduar) a 1 in 2500 chance to get one-shotted.

    That means that there is a 1 in 2500 chance to get oneshotted for every swing that a boss mob does. At a 2.5 speed swing time, that means that on average, you'll get oneshotted once every 100 or so minutes of boss fighting.

    That's almost one wipe per Ulduar clear.

    And that, my friend, is one wipe more then you could have had.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    Apart from all the other explanations already given, here's something to consider.

    A 1 in 2500 chance to get a crit works out to basically (especially in Ulduar) a 1 in 2500 chance to get one-shotted.

    That means that there is a 1 in 2500 chance to get oneshotted for every swing that a boss mob does. At a 2.5 speed swing time, that means that on average, you'll get oneshotted once every 100 or so minutes of boss fighting.

    That's almost one wipe per Ulduar clear.

    And that, my friend, is one wipe more then you could have had.
    That's a good point. I'm glad my question was answered several times and in many different ways. I'll touch upon again. I was under the impression that removing the chance to be crit was subject to diminishing returns (for standard raid bosses, not weird ones like Thorim), meaning that I thought the difference between 539, 540,541, 580, over 9000 defense, etc., were almost negligible. My thinking was that at around 540, you received exponentially less uncritability. My maths were obviously fail. The "crit cap" follows the same logic (which I thought had changed), that existed during the 490 BC days. It appears I received misinformation at the onset of WotLK that stuck to me until now. I now have 543 def as opposed to my usual 539..

  16. #16
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    every point in defence adds a little more to your dodge/parry/block as well as i understand it..so points in def beyond 540 still have benefit in other ways. i think.
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  17. #17
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    In one of my earlier gearsets I had 539 defence. It worked out just great.But I also had the PvP shoulder armour enchant

  18. #18
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    Immunity is dangerous to say, because almost always a raid boss will be using the standard crit amounts, but we don't want to misinform people who will think this immunity will work in PVP also. Since players can get very high critical values, and I think defense applies only to melee (all physical? Not sure about hunters) attacks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diridin View Post
    ZOMG I GOT CRIT! ...yes x is still bound to sit ...yes i do use my alt key for keybinds


    Pretty sure the above scenario is the reason for almost every crit thread by people over 5.6% crit reduction.
    That and people not looking up the details of the debuffs on them/abilities used against them.

    It's especially fun that H ToC has not 1 but 2 places where you can get crit.

    The trash before the second boss has an unbalancing strike (-100 defense) and Eadric has an ability that makes his next attack autocrit.

    Remember all those threads about how Skadi was Crush - Spell - World of Warcraft -ing people?

  20. #20
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    With the recent change to resilience, what is the lowest defense you can run and still be uncrittable with the PvP enchant?

    According to Whitetooth, it now takes 94.27122498 resilience to reduce crit chance by 1%, which means the pvp enchant only supplies 0.159115361% reduction, possibly leaving a tank with 536 defense (5.44% reduction) at a 0.000884639 chance to be crit. The WoW UI rounds the resilience reduction to the hundredth of the percent, but is there any rational to assume what it does one way or the other? If you went by tooltips, 15 resilience provides .16% reduction which should be enough to cover the gap, but is that accurate?

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