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Thread: Lightwell: Are you kidding me??

  1. #1
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    Lightwell: Are you kidding me??

    From the Priest Q&A:
    Q: Lightwell isn't a very desirable talent for most Holy priests given its current functionality; do you have any plans to improve its functionality?

    Ghostcrawler: We've tried a lot of different implementations so far. The basic root of the problem is that most dps classes seem unwilling to have to take the time or spatial awareness to make use of the Lightwell, even if it provides great healing. Players will use Health Stones, but Lightwell crosses the line. We're not entirely happy with that phenomenon in the game as a whole. We don't like that dps characters focus on dps at the exclusion of even their own survival and just assume that's the healer's job (this is similar to the problem I mentioned a week or two ago where some tanks focus on survival and downplay threat or damage dealt). To be clear, Lightwell heals for a lot. The problem is just getting players to use it. Encounters currently are very fast-paced, in terms of both dps and healing required so you have trouble finding room to use it. If we do more encounters where healing is more about deciding who to heal (Firemaw or Shazzrah come to mind), then Lightwell would be amazing.
    Now here's the "are you kidding me" part! The reaction I'm seeing from visible priests (read: columnists etc) is: "Blizz doesn't realize that Lightwell is broken/sucks/needs improvement."

    Seriously?!?! Lightwell is crazy powerful and terribly useful, the problem is not with the spell but the attitudes and awareness of the community who should be clicking on it. This may be the single most efficient heal in the game, available on demand, and the healer doesn't have to pay the least bit of attention to it, the raiders just have to click when they take damage (think of any fight where the raid takes damage and is expected to).

    This reminds me of the ridiculous notion it's taken Blood DK's months to break that the tank is not supposed to contribute to their own heals, "that's the healer's job." /facepalm

    Yarrrrgggghhhhh


    /endrant

    Priests, if you think Lightwell is a waste, you don't have to take it. But if you understand its value and never feel like it's going to good use, take the time to train your raid team to use it. Figure out where best to place it (usually next to the melee dps/tank or next to the ranged dps/healers), and teach people to just click it...

    It's not hard. Many people don't click it because they don't know its there, and/or don't know its value or how to use it. Teach them, and learn more about its best uses yourself in the process! We'll all be a little better off.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  2. #2
    I agree. There are a lot of things in the game that are under used and proclaimed to be broken/useless, but are in fact very useful given the right situations. This is one of them.

  3. #3
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    I agree it is a awesome spell and on my priest I spec'ed into it but quickly learned noone uses it. I will announce on vent when and where I have put it down and at the end of the fight hover over it to see a full 10 charges left (It starts with 10 charges). Ghostcrawler hit the nail on the head with his statement.

  4. #4
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    The problem is that, when it should excel (such as on Firefighter where we considered using it), it ends up being completely negated since it goes away if you take a certain amount of damage while the HoT is on you. When people take expected AoE damage and then won't take any more damage for a while (where Lightwell could be useful), it's a non-issue since they aren't in danger of dying anyway and druids can handle it.
    "We actually talked today about adding an item level 300 shirt that did absolutely nothing but mess with mods that attempt to boil down players to gear scores. " -Ghostcrawler

  5. #5
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    Aye, more than 30% of your total health in under 6 seconds will break the heal. But if you aren't a tank, the occasion where said damage will be unavoidable is very rare and special case. That is not a detraction from Lightwell.


    The problem with Lightwell is the same as a great many other survival CD's for tanks (Mark of Blood comes to mind). The value of the spell is derived from how well people use it. And the only way that Lightwell's value is questionable is that people just don't know/think to use it.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  6. #6
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    The real problem is that Lightwell as a heal increased fight complexity. Raid boss design right now is to challenge the DPS by forcing reaction and movement while demanding that they continue to produce. The value of the DPS to the raid is put forward at the end of many fights by production of a DPS meter. Right now the DPS is told that they must react (usually move and/or change targets) immediately to situational needs, and must put out as much DPS time as they possibly can. Advise for DPS usually consists of "be aware of the fire, don't stand in it, move out of it as quickly as you can, replant yourself and resume attacking." That's why speed enchants on boots are popular, minimizing move time.

    For Lightwell to be effective, a DPSer has to choose to move to a location and take a heal instead of continuing to pew-pew. It might be better for the healer (high efficiency) but is detrimental to the raid performance of the DPSer.

    Will it be used? No, of course not.

  7. #7
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    Can a priest cast Lightwell in or out combat?

  8. #8
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    Perhaps make Lightwell castable 40 yards away from the Priest so they don't have to run in to drop it in Melee range?

  9. #9
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    Lightwell can be cast in or out of combat and the well persists for 3 min (the length of the CD) or until the 10 charges are used. The cast range for the center of the base of the well is 40 yards, my Holy Priest tends to preset it before a fight wherever it is needed, makes it very easy.

    We've also spent months training our dps to use it. On fights like Razorscale, Ignis, and Hodir, it gets used up before it's duration is done, and the healing is terribly helpful. The ONLY problem with using it that would noticeably decrease dps output is that you have to target it to use it. Placement is purely a matter of the priest knowing where people will be standing and only a few fights make that hard to do well.

    And the problem, Clyde, is not that it will spoil raid performance, the attention and ability it takes to use it is not at all a disruption, it is that people actually need to be capable of paying attention to something other than their bars. In other words, the same skill required to survive higher end raiding, is the same skill required to use the Lightwell.

    Ignorance and misconception abound for this particular spell, and that alone is the reason it has quite as bad a rap as it does.

    Generally, I'd just let that slide, that is true of a great many tools/toys in the game, but when much-read columnists and bloggers spout the ignorance to continue public misconceptions, then I get feisty!
    Last edited by Satorri; 08-04-2009 at 09:57 AM.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  10. #10
    dead dps = poor raid performance

    GC has it right, many dps and tanks wont use it because they don't believe it is their responsibility to heal themselves other than using a pot or cookie. Changing targets (when healing is concerned) is just too hard for dps I guess.

    If blizzard recognizes that the attitudes surrounding this great healing tool are the major reason why no one uses it, then why not change the way the spell works?

    Maybe allow the lightwell to heal x amounts of targets within a certain range for a certain amount of time. Turn it into a priest version of a shammy's totem. They could even increase the amount of people healed or length of time it heals for but add a CD to it. Just eliminate the need to click it for a heal.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    The cast range for the center of the base of the well is 40 yards (maybe 30?), my Holy Priest tends to preset it before a fight wherever it is needed, makes it very easy.
    Well I fail, thanks for the info though, we run 2 Holy Priests that I know could easily be utilizing this talent in raids and currently are not. (even though I think they may even be speced into it)

  12. #12
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    Amall, that's kind of my point though. Just because so many people (at least the visible ones) don't know how to use it well doesn't mean you should change the skill. If people weren't using it because it really wasn't valuable or functional (like it used to be, thus earning the nickname Lolwell) that would be one thing.

    At least GC understands where the problem lies. =)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  13. #13
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    Here's why, as a melee DPS, I don't use lightwell:

    If it's close enough to the target for me to click on it without moving, it's underneath all the other melee dps and possibly the boss. It's also hard for the priest to put it in a position where I can get it without going off target.

    Secondly, clicking on it clears my target and selects the lightwell, which is inconvenient and means I'm not getting in my white dps, resets my swing timer, etc.

    It's very good on fights where there is both raid damage and substantial downtime/collapsing on the part of the DPS. Razorscale, Saphhiron, Vezax (for the ranged, especially because you can pre-cast it), to a lesser extent Yogg are all examples of lightwell-friendly fights.

    On the fights where we want to stay on target as much as possible, health pots, healthstones, and just relying on our healers are better.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    And the problem, Clyde, is not that it will spoil raid performance, the attention and ability it takes to use it is not at all a disruption, it is that people actually need to be capable of paying attention to something other than their bars. In other words, the same skill required to survive higher end raiding, is the same skill required to use the Lightwell.
    Oh, I don't disagree with the idea that the spell is a good one. It's just that DPS is a competitive thing. The DPS person that interrupts their rotation, or gives a bit of attention to deciding when to use it will lose some damage output compared to the output of the DPS person that ignores it, focuses on their rotation and leaves their health to the healing staff.

    The incentive for the DPS to use the lightwell is that it benefits the healing staff. The downside is that it's something else to track, and you might find yourself breaking your rotation to use it. In other words, when competing against other DPS, the one that ignores it is rewarded by higher DPS.

    It has a negative incentive curve for the individual user, even though selfless use by the whole team would benefit the entire group. It's the tragedy of the commons problem written a bit differently.

  15. #15
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    Your point is true.

    I suppose part of my anger at that is reflection of my anger for that aspect of the dps game as well, not just that it has trickled down to the community outlook on the ability.

    It peeves me that people are so busy competing to be "adequate dps" or the best dps to do what is more important for the team as a whole. A poisonous attitude in the raiding world along with the idea that if a dps pulls threat off a tank it must be the tanks fault for not doing enough threat. A poison hidden in a half-truth. It ends up compromising so many raiding guilds, I've watched it happen. The values of teamwork to overcome the challenge get trumped by the selfish desire to be the all-star of the group.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  16. #16
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    Frankly, I'll talent into Lightwell when my raiders demand it.

    If the designers feel it's such an under used spell, why not give a reduced version to priests and require a talent point to buff it? Right now, my talent points can be spent on other talents that are useful 100% of the time, in 100% of the fights - and their effectiveness does not depend on the actions (or inaction) of others.

    If GC wants priests to use Lightwell, give it to priests as a base spell.
    [Insert witty signature here]

  17. #17
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    Give paladins lightwell. :P

  18. #18
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    I think you miss the other flaws of the spell...

    Its an item feature kind of like a healthstone well it used to be way too small so its size was increased (but to no relavent effect).

    It is charge based, 10 charges can go very fast if you are franticly clicking to save your life.

    It is reliant on the priest not taking a lot of damage

    The healing is not useful and the talents you sacrifice scale all your healing. I think you over value light well its not only a case of people don't know how to use it, its a case of it simply isn't useful any a raid enviroment. With JoL and CoH, wild growth and chain heal there is little need for it's use.

    Lolwell is probably the least used and specced 31 point talent.

  19. #19
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    Give paladins lightwell. :P
    I'll trade my Lightwell for your Holy Shock.

    BTW, I should point out the Dev's have been working at "improving" Lightwell since the beginning of BC and there's still no love for the talent. One talent point for a glorified raid marker? Pass. With CD's coming up and proc-based abilities popping, who wants to take their focus off of DPSing to look for a Lightwell, much less run to it? Especially when the HPS is going to have you healed by the time you get there, or before you get back to the boss, or before Lightwell Renew expires.

    There may be specific situations where Lightwell shines, but overall there are better places to spend that talent point.
    Last edited by Furi; 08-04-2009 at 12:30 PM.
    [Insert witty signature here]

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Your point is true.

    I suppose part of my anger at that is reflection of my anger for that aspect of the dps game as well, not just that it has trickled down to the community outlook on the ability.

    It peeves me that people are so busy competing to be "adequate dps" or the best dps to do what is more important for the team as a whole. A poisonous attitude in the raiding world along with the idea that if a dps pulls threat off a tank it must be the tanks fault for not doing enough threat. A poison hidden in a half-truth. It ends up compromising so many raiding guilds, I've watched it happen. The values of teamwork to overcome the challenge get trumped by the selfish desire to be the all-star of the group.
    I completely agree. That single minded mindset is so frustrating to deal with in a raid. How productive is it to the raid to cause your healers to go oom or make them choose who lives and who dies when you have another option that could ease the situation?

    Ignorance, a competitive mindset, or refusal to learn how to utilize a certain aspect of the game is detrimental to the raid as a whole and can ultimately cause the encounter to be more difficult.

    I just can’t imagine that it is really that difficult to get into the habit of looking for a well, clicking on it, the retargeting the mob/boss… If I can manage to keep track of 25 health bars and the environment where I am standing, it blows my mind that clicking on the well then back to your target is that much of a difficulty. The root of the problem lies more in the mindset Satorri described than in any flaws of the lightwell…

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