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Thread: Survival Breakdown and Evolution

  1. #21
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    Does "dodge soft cap" not refer to the expertise soft cap once dodge is removed from the table?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geth60 View Post
    Does "dodge soft cap" not refer to the expertise soft cap once dodge is removed from the table?
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is what is meant by that term. I don't know why the word "soft" is in there, though.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    FWIW I'll gem for expertise is I'm below the dodge ("soft") cap, as it has a noticeable effect on my threat gen and of course is also decreasing parries. I don't like to do it, but sometime that's just the way the numbers fall.

    Anyways, I had one warrior-centric mechanic I wanted to point out: you can macro a Last Stand/Enraged Regeneration combo that results in what is functionally a stronger CD (you get the LS buffer plus extra healing since you have more life at the time of calculation) but of course at the expense of less overall CD uptime. On some fights this is a powerful combination...it's one of my standard "cooldowns" when eating a Mimiron plasma blast, for example.

    I don't know if other classes have synergistic CDs like this, but if so they can allow for greater survivability against specific burst encounters.
    @Tom - I do exactly the same thing but go one step further by slaving trinkets to my survival macro's as well. Thus I have LS, Repelling Charge and Enraged Regen together. I also chain Shield Wall, Shield Block and Monarch Crab together.

    Not for everyone but I like the synergy they create.

    @Satorri - Good stuff sir. Keep it coming.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geth60 View Post
    Does "dodge soft cap" not refer to the expertise soft cap once dodge is removed from the table?
    Sorry I wasn't clear. It's the expertise "soft cap" I was referring to, where NPC dodges are pushed off the table. At that point expertise is point for point equal to hit in terms of threat. Of course having more expertise is still useful for both threat and survival until the "hard cap" where parries are also pushed off the table (56 or 57 IIRC), but few tanks intentionally gem to get it anywhere near that high right now. I would imagine as we get into T10 gear and more of it shows up on our gear some tanks will push for the expertise hard cap just like happened around the time SWP gear came out in BC.

    As an addendum, I should note that parry rates vary from boss to boss, so on some encounters I believe the "parry cap" is much lower (it's used for boss tuning), but so far the mid-50s seems to be the actual cap.

  5. #25
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    Love where you're going with this. I appreciate too that you're up front about what this is and isn't; namely:

    It is not a tool to show which tank is better and why

    It is a tool to show how all of the tank classes combine dozens of tools to produce highly similar results

    I wish you luck in properly factoring ardent defender (and will of the necropolis to a lesser degree) into your calculations. Basic theorycrafting will give it zero effect; in tunnel-vision TTL calculations it has such a massive impact as to declare the other tank classes largely useless. Obviously neither case is accurate.

    Call me a blizzard fanboi, but I'm always confident that tanks are within a certain margin of balance to each other. This shows, to some degree, that the latest tweaks have been quite effective. There can certainly be scenarios where particular tools become more valuable (blood deathknights and oldschool sarth+3, for example), but the overall balance seems solid.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rime View Post
    I wish you luck in properly factoring ardent defender (and will of the necropolis to a lesser degree) into your calculations. Basic theorycrafting will give it zero effect; in tunnel-vision TTL calculations it has such a massive impact as to declare the other tank classes largely useless. Obviously neither case is accurate.
    Yeah, Ardent Defender will obviously pose some interesting problems.

    As I see it, it would have one of two effects: either

    1) the pally is taking enough damage in a short period of time that he dies anyway (after the proc saves him), such that Ardent Defender's death-prevention proc is useless; or

    2) the pally is taking just enough damage for the proc to occur once every 2 or more minutes.

    In the first case, it is largely useless, since it would just heal the pally back up to 30%, and then he would die again. In such a case, cooldowns like Shield Wall would be largely superior. I guess one example of this would be anything comparable to Mimiron's Plasma Blast, where you take a very significant amount of damage over a short period of time, but it is in separate ticks, as opposed to one large attack.

    In the second case, it is overwhelmingly good. Assume that a boss has a super powerful single attack that he uses just over every 2 minutes. (I know this is a tailor-made boss to demonstrate how OP Ardent Defender may possibly be, but bear with me.) In this situation, Ardent Defender would remove any need for outside cooldowns, regardless of how high the damage is. If the pally was hit for 200,000, in one single attack, this would save him entirely.

    Yeah, Rime is right. I just showed exactly what he was talking about, hahahaha.

    P.S. I can't wait for more of Satorri's theorycrafting to make its way into this topic; I really want to see the final products of total damage taken, chance to take 3+ hits in a row, relative values of cooldowns, and so on.

  7. #27
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    Thanks for keeping this bumped, I've actually been waiting for Rawr to get fixed up for more recent iterations so I can be confident I'm working from consistent numbers (Warrior avoidance/block isn't calculating right, so it's left me uncertain about other numbers).

    Soon I will get back to this. =)
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  8. #28
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    Ok, I'm back in business, sort of. The stats in the original post have been fixed and updated for 3.2. I had to do some computation of my own since Rawr wants to over-calculate armor for some reason (the paladin does not in fact have 39k armor raid buffed without procs or abilities...), but the new numbers should be currently accurate and these numbers will be used to continue.

    The tanks have gotten upgrades, so I'm using their current gear to set the stage.

    I'll emphasize this again, this is not intended to compare classes, nor critique the choices of the exemplar tanks. Suffice to say these tanks are all progressing in Uld25/ToC25, doing regular and hard modes, and are all successful tanks for their teams.

    The point of this developing tool is to gauge just how much effect is actually being garnered from different contributions to survival, what the cumulative effect is, and to see how the variances in gearing style and class mechanics can still end up with a roughly equivalent effect in overall damage reduction.

    This is also only meant to be an inspection of survival skills, threat will not be discussed here, except for the occasional reference to how threat methodology will affect survival CDs and availabilities.

    I am going to be on vacation for the next week and a half or so, so this won't get stepped forward much from this weekend to the following, but hopefully after that I can get the ball rolling again!
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  9. #29
    Hi Satorri,

    I'm guessing the deathknight listed is probably blood (and most likely yourself ;-))
    I'd be interested in seeing the numbers for a frostie, as the extra 2% mitigation and 3% miss chance given to frost tanks may change the numbers somewhat (in the favour of DK's) compared to the 3% stamina from blood.

    Of course a talent tree comparison is complex, considering all cd's, abilities and self healing.
    But I would imagine looking at the basic comparison of a tank which has 3% more avoidance and 2% more mitigation at a cost of 3% less stamina should lead to significantly higher DK survival figures in your 4 class comparison figure on your original post.

    I find the comparisons in this thread really interesting, as I have both a DK and warrior who I raid tank with, and find myself comparing them frequently.

    Keep up the good work

  10. #30
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    I think we have a few different DK's willing to help work on some of these things. I know my hat is in the right for DW tanking. Granted I got my Dual-Bladed Butcher last night, and yes im friggin pumped still! But I am back to good ole 2 hander tanking for the moment.
    The Pwnstar Puddin, Now in a Fun Sized Goblin Shell.




  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    The tanks have gotten upgrades, so I'm using their current gear to set the stage.

    I'll emphasize this again, this is not intended to compare classes, nor critique the choices of the exemplar tanks. Suffice to say these tanks are all progressing in Uld25/ToC25, doing regular and hard modes, and are all successful tanks for their teams.

    The point of this developing tool is to gauge just how much effect is actually being garnered from different contributions to survival, what the cumulative effect is, and to see how the variances in gearing style and class mechanics can still end up with a roughly equivalent effect in overall damage reduction.
    For some reason I was unable to click on your sample profiles to check the gear choices, I must have done something wrong, but your paladin seemed strangely low in all survival stats for a fully raidbuffed protection paladin. It's possible some of the choices are just different than I'd make, but it just all looks a little wonky to me. Certainly health and avoidance seem extremely low, and BV a little bit high, but not high enough to support there being a BV Libram or 4t8 bonus active.

    --
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    You're using loaded language. "Gear correctly" suggests there is a right way and a wrong way. You've already parted trails with me. That said, bearing in mind that I only trust this warrior (and you do as well, promise), gearing for Expertise is not a bad idea at all for a warrior doing hardmode work. Expertise has a very positive effect on your threat/damage (the latter of which becoming more important in hardmodes), and still has some small survival buffing. If you would make a different choice, that's fine, but I wouldn't call the exemplar into question for everyone because of it.

    Besides, you assume that I'm not using tanks who are prominent community members, not just well-geared? Part of why I trust a tank as an example is BECAUSE they talk the talk, not just show up with good gear.

    Like I said though, who the tank actually is, is not of consequence. If you disagree with their choices, that's fine, you can plug in your own values to see how you fair next to them on the breakdown. The tank just happens to be an excellent choice for comparison with the other exemplars.
    I'm not going to discuss the effects of gemming expertise versus stamina in your original thread but unfortunately (due to the huge amounts of work you're having to do most likely) things have evolved since then. while it was possible to be low on expertise during hardmode progression in ulduar, which made it "viable" to use non-loaded terms to go for expertise (if you wished to increase threat and reduce burst damage intake on the few fights where it matters) now in totc however, any tank is going to reach atleast the softcap if they're gearing properly (and yes, I'm using the loaded term here since there's simply no other viable way of gearing) without gemming for expertise.

    After reaching the soft cap gemming for expertise would be very unwise as the benefits are minimal compared to losing over 340 health per gem that you swap out of stamina.

    In all honesty you're doing a fine job but as you're saying yourself it's fairly easy to tweak the numbers/gear choices and do the same maths I suppose you could update the gear choices before finishing your job as the results you're going to publish if you don't change these options are going to be outdated and thus obsolete. The formulas however and mathematical work are going to keep their value, but I think most people simply want to see actual and up-to-date results instead of old "debatable" gear choices.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DwayneDibley View Post
    Hi Satorri,

    I'm guessing the deathknight listed is probably blood (and most likely yourself ;-))
    I'd be interested in seeing the numbers for a frostie, as the extra 2% mitigation and 3% miss chance given to frost tanks may change the numbers somewhat (in the favour of DK's) compared to the 3% stamina from blood.

    Of course a talent tree comparison is complex, considering all cd's, abilities and self healing.
    But I would imagine looking at the basic comparison of a tank which has 3% more avoidance and 2% more mitigation at a cost of 3% less stamina should lead to significantly higher DK survival figures in your 4 class comparison figure on your original post.

    I find the comparisons in this thread really interesting, as I have both a DK and warrior who I raid tank with, and find myself comparing them frequently.

    Keep up the good work
    likewise i'd like to see a warrior variant without improved disciplines and the glyph for 2 mins shield wall, if you can spare the time/energy

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    likewise i'd like to see a warrior variant without improved disciplines and the glyph for 2 mins shield wall, if you can spare the time/energy
    He is using a warrior with 2 min shieldwall, go back and read the posts. I don't think he specified Imp Disciplines, but I don't know many who don't spec into it.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    Sorry I wasn't clear. It's the expertise "soft cap" I was referring to, where NPC dodges are pushed off the table. At that point expertise is point for point equal to hit in terms of threat.
    Actually a pretty common and annoying myth.
    At that point hit becomes quite a bit more valuable as a DK.
    For a blood tank, hit effects Heart Strike, Death Strike, Plague Strike, Icy Touch, Rune Strike, Aoe abilities, Taunts, Death Grips...
    Expertise only effects Heart Strike, Plague Strike, and Death Strike.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgewalker View Post
    Actually a pretty common and annoying myth.
    At that point hit becomes quite a bit more valuable as a DK.
    For a blood tank, hit effects Heart Strike, Death Strike, Plague Strike, Icy Touch, Rune Strike, Aoe abilities, Taunts, Death Grips...
    Expertise only effects Heart Strike, Plague Strike, and Death Strike.
    that's pretty much accurate.

    @Tom: remember that dk's have both spell-like abilities and melee attacks that both function off the same hit rating value on our character sheet. once we cap our melee specials, we still get the benefit of improving the accuracy of our spell-like abilities as well if we stack hit past 8%/26 expertise. further expertise, however, adds 0 benefit to our spells chance to hit.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomHuxley View Post
    He is using a warrior with 2 min shieldwall, go back and read the posts. I don't think he specified Imp Disciplines, but I don't know many who don't spec into it.
    I think you have misuderstood my request/misread my post; What i would like to see is the effect NOT "glyphing and talenting for a 2min cooldown on shield wall" has on warriors, i.e warriors survival and mitigation with the baseline 5 minute cd on shield wall.

    And how would you get a 2 min cd on SW without Imp.Disc?

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