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Thread: Is it possible for my guild to kill Yogg on 25 man

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Is it possible for my guild to kill Yogg on 25 man

    We are trying Yogg 25 for a month about now, but we cant advance even by an inch, same thing all the time, lots of brain runs and we get overwhelmed by tenticles. I dont think this is fully our dps issue, since we have no trouble on any other boss, and have entire UD25 on zerg farm, but Yogg is a bullet proof wall for us, we are using classic tankspot strategy with 2 fairy tanks on phase one, and group of melee dps with a healer into the brain room.

    This is our stat recording from previous raid

    World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

    If you see some anomalies, please tell, any analysis and suggestions are appreciated.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    sounds similar to my guild's yogg attempts.

    we cruise through p1, then p2 hits and sometimes we get can get the brain down in 3, sometimes it takes 4, but we are often overwhelmed by the tentacles up top.

    I know this fight heavily depends upon quality decursing in p2 and good dps always.

    Its also a tough fight because of the portals - someone takes the wrong portal and it can throw off a bunch of stuff, or if someone doesn't make it to a portal due to being grabbed, etc.

    We've been stuck on yogg since May btw.. Summer has been rough for us with people quitting, leaving the guild, etc.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    This may be off topic, but in cerain fights like this one I wish there was the option of having a 26th spot available. Not to add a 26th raider but as an Oberservation position only. Someone who can over see the whole fight and help spot problem areas and work on strats. A Coach postition if you like.

    For fights like this one where so many Guild are hitting a brick wall and it is such a complicated fight, a "caoch" position would help alot to lower the frustration of Raiders who feel they are doing the same thing over and over and failing and not knowing why.

  4. #4
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    A simple WOL parse on it's own is not enough for us to be able to tell you where you are going wrong. Looking at that WOL parse you have provided and also looking at previous raids you should have the DPS required to be able to down him. What I say you are lacking is execution. Are you making sure your ranged DPS get onto Crushers ASAP?

    Do you have a feral swiping or another tank lancing the crushers to get rid of the debuff?

    Phase two is all about getting the tentacles down and the path to the brain unlocked as soon as possible and hammer it down as quickly as they can. While this is happening the ranged up top really need to focus on bringing down crushers as quickly as they can. A really big thing that I think you should focus on is making sure that ranged have as little down time as possible, this means moving as a unit from tentacle to tentacle. This will also assist ranged in keeping everyone alive.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Key metrics of YS, from my observations:

    Brain room - how much time is the DPS spending on the brain itself? We started at 20 seconds, and our first kill had two successive 40 sec windows. This meant less time, mana or damage taken during p2. This leads to ...

    Crushers - how many are up at a time? We've been able to sustain killing them and limiting to one crusher at at time, but healers complain about corrupters a lot. The kill, however, had 40 second windows of nothing moving or spawning, enough that we killed the crusher, then burned at least one corrupter in addition. Note that the last brain phase started with YS at 40%, so DPS was ordered to hold back while we cleaned up anything we could, leaving only 3 corrupters alive. This mattered in p3, where healers had less debuffs to remove and thus more time to heal.

    On a sidenote, keeping the Crusher debuff down is huge. The only tactics are melee (tank) strafing them to interrupt, or using cleave effects (Heart Strike on DKs, Swipe for druids, HotR for paladins) on a nearby corrupter to hit crushers. The range effects of those abilities is slightly larger than melee, so a tank can stand and spam while still hitting a 'out of range' target.

    Sidenote #2 - Constrictors form on a raidmember's location, so keeping relatively compact and moving together in p2 is vital for dps reacting quickly. Several folks died when they didn't move or opted to stand far away from the raid, as we couldn't locate and assist them before they died.

    Both time in the brain room and number of crushers can be tracked in p2 by time. See how much time is being lost to killing tentacles by melee outside the brainroom, and work on progressive improvements. One method is to assign targets (possibly using the same assignments as portals for circular rooms, and split into three teams on the square). This helps locate poor-burst dps & helps get most targets dead quickly.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Brain room - We are sending 9 of our best melee dps, and one healer into the brain room, and we are getting about 20+ sec brain bumping time on our first run in, other runs are heavely based on luck

    Crushers - We can handle the crusher spawns, but it usualy takes us about 5 brain runs to enter phase 3, and situation gets out of ocntrol by than and our dps can hardly handle all the crushers, not to mention that we completely ignore the corrupters and usualy get over 8+ of them in phase 3, that make it almost impossible to survive
    On a sidenote, keeping the Crusher debuff down is huge. The only tactics are melee (tank) strafing them to interrupt, or using cleave effects (Heart Strike on DKs, Swipe for druids, HotR for paladins) on a nearby corrupter to hit crushers. The range effects of those abilities is slightly larger than melee, so a tank can stand and spam while still hitting a 'out of range' target.
    We do all of it very successful, only our tanks, including me are focused on interrupting, i stay only on corrupters since HoJ does not seem to work on Crushers, but because of our dps is completely ignoring corrupters, to be able to handle any Crushers, we get so many of corrupters, that there is no point in interupting them on later time, so i switch to cleansing and sometimes interrupting, since im a pally.

    Sidenote #2 - Constrictors form on a raidmember's location, so keeping relatively compact and moving together in p2 is vital for dps reacting quickly. Several folks died when they didn't move or opted to stand far away from the raid, as we couldn't locate and assist them before they died.
    Done and done.

    Both time in the brain room and number of crushers can be tracked in p2 by time. See how much time is being lost to killing tentacles by melee outside the brainroom, and work on progressive improvements. One method is to assign targets (possibly using the same assignments as portals for circular rooms, and split into three teams on the square). This helps locate poor-burst dps & helps get most targets dead quickly.
    This is what we are doing to, we split the running team in 2 parts each takes its own side.


    We spent a lot of time to study Tankspots tactics and it seems we got it all perfect, but i believe we dont have the dps to handle this fight.

    What is the minimum or good enough dps(of each running group member) do you recomend for a brain, to down it in 3 runs, with around 20 sec bumping time(That includes that we put ine healer in there to).
    Or how much time do we need free on the brain to handle it in 3 runs, do we need stable 30-40 sec on the brain?

  7. #7
    I think the key thing I take away from what you've said is that you're only getting 20s on the brain at best. That's not good. All your problems up 'above' will come down to this cause. You want to be aiming for 40s on the brain. That's a huge difference.

    Do you have an officer or other in the brain room to see what's going on? When we first started we made loads of mistakes. In the end we split the melee group into three parts - one goes to the left in the brain, one to the right, and one to the back (preferably the ones who can sprint / charge). There's basically one tentacle each (9 tentacles). Each melee should take down one - if there's someone already on a tentacle, go to the next one, then back to help out if needed. The first attack you make on an illusion does no damage - so just use something minor, not your biggest nuke. Also, make sure that people get into the portals instantly when they spawn. After the first entry into the brain, you only get about 15s up top - have to dash to regain Sanity and then go straight back to the portals - don't let people hang around / miss portals. Spawn, click, start nuking inside. Speed is absolutely key.

    If you can speed up your brain team you will improve that phase by leaps and bounds.
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  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    281
    Quote Originally Posted by Bighouse View Post
    Brain room - We are sending 9 of our best melee dps, and one healer into the brain room, and we are getting about 20+ sec brain bumping time on our first run in, other runs are heavely based on luck

    Crushers - We can handle the crusher spawns, but it usualy takes us about 5 brain runs to enter phase 3, and situation gets out of ocntrol by than and our dps can hardly handle all the crushers, not to mention that we completely ignore the corrupters and usualy get over 8+ of them in phase 3, that make it almost impossible to survive
    This is 80% of your problem. Even if you can control Crushers outside, you're still getting Corrupter spawns. Heading into P3, corrupters simply wear your raid down with debuffs and force healers to dispell instead of heal. Furthermore, spawn rates increase over time, so I would expect you see a LOT more Corrupters than I care to imagine

    For all intents and purposes, Yogg is a massive DPS check. Catching up is limited simply as once you fall behind, you need a significant increase in DPS to catch up... which wouldn't be a problem if you had the DPS in the first place. Catch-22.


    We do all of it very successful, only our tanks, including me are focused on interrupting, i stay only on corrupters since HoJ does not seem to work on Crushers, but because of our dps is completely ignoring corrupters, to be able to handle any Crushers, we get so many of corrupters, that there is no point in interupting them on later time, so i switch to cleansing and sometimes interrupting, since im a pally.
    An option is to have druid/dk tanks shift to DPS (catform & blood/unholy) and be melee. You only need one tank per Crusher to keep the debuff down, but that provides more dps to keep Corrupters/Constrictors under control.

    What is the minimum or good enough dps(of each running group member) do you recomend for a brain, to down it in 3 runs, with around 20 sec bumping time(That includes that we put ine healer in there to).
    Or how much time do we need free on the brain to handle it in 3 runs, do we need stable 30-40 sec on the brain?
    We were wiping (consistently) when we were hitting 30-35 second brain DPS windows. Crushers were getting cleared, but Corrupters weren't. At 40 seconds, we started getting consistent Corrupter kills. Yes, we still get a few up, but a few is doable compared to a swarm.

    Looking over yesterday's log, the average DPS was ~4.5, with a fair amount of range between members. I suspect the log didn't pick up everything, given that no one in the brain team submitted a log. We did have brain DPS hold up repeatedly, so the team is clearly 'over' the minimum. I recall Ciderhelm commenting on a previous Yogg parse, and implying that his guild's lowest dps are over ~4.2k, so figure that 4k+ is minimum per brain member.
    Last edited by Esch; 08-03-2009 at 10:18 AM. Reason: Spelling

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    604
    Previous posters have hit the nail on the head - optimizing the portal team's dps.


    Are you guys assigning people to specific portals? We laid out the portals in General's room and assigned everyone to a numbered portal so that way, everyone knew exactly where to go. We also popped smoke flares by a couple of the portals as a way to help people to orient themselves more easily during the learning curve.

    Another thing that the portal team needs to be aware of is that there aren't any GCD to spare once you're down there. Everyone needs to be killing the add closest to their portal on their own. More than once person beating on the same add is a waste. Ret pallies and arms warriors proved to be strong dps for the portals as they have abilities that allow them to do high damage to the grouped mobs in the portals.

    Getting sanity topped off, getting to the area of your portal before it opens and conserving escape cooldowns for portal team members who get caught in constrictors will help.

    Crusher teams also need to be very efficient and someone in the raid should be marking crushers for kill and directing the non-portal dps team so they can focus fire for max efficiency. As a previous poster noted, the better the portal team gets, the easier life will be for the crusher team.

    Question: How many tanks are you running with? We found that two ferry tanks in tank gear and one DK tank in his dps gear worked well. The ferry tanks would ferry and the dk would foxybox with mobs at the door - a druid could perform a similar role easily and provide strong dps later in the fight.

    Finally, for phase 3, we'd have one tank marking spawns for killing and taunting/aggroing new spawns while the other tank would tank em.

    Its an encounter where you can go for a while and not feel like you're progressing, but take heart - each attempt should let people learn how to optimize their personal strategy. Good luck!

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