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Thread: I need to know: Is it me, or the healers?!

  1. #1
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    I need to know: Is it me, or the healers?!

    Ok guys, I have a question... I usually run heroics mostly, raids when I can but in some of the heroics I always get asked "are you def. capped?" "Man, why are you taking so much damage?!" So I need to know, is it the healers just not being up to par, or do I need to change my gear/specs around.

    It's not every heroic either though, like today, I did H-CoS and the druid couldn't keep me alive..but yesterday I did H-HoS with no problem and ended up actually SOLOING Krystallus from 37% O.o... I really don't think it's me, but I'm coming here for advice just in-case lol.

    Here is the link to my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

    I also use "Guru's Elixir" "Elixir of Might Defense" and "Dragonfin Filet" when tanking.. So I get +20 to all stats with Guru's, +45 Defense with the defense potion (for dodge & parry stats..) and +40 Stamina and +40 Strength from the Dragonfin filet. With that my health "self buffed" so to say is 29,921.

    Anyway, if you all could give me some advice or let me know either way, it would be greatly apprieciated. Oh yea, any guilds on Blade's Edge that raid or just run Heroics? I'm also working on getting my Argent Crusade rep up for the helm enchant...

  2. #2
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    I know very little about DK specs, so I can't comment on that. But, from a gear standpoint, your more than fine for heroics. I'd say unless your making huge mistakes on the pulls its the healers problem.

    Funny, I finally meet someone else on TS that also plays on Blade's Edge.

  3. #3
    I'd work to get your Sons Of Hodir enchant for the shoulders.

    Are you wearing tabards while your in heroics? I got almost all the WotLK factions to exalted with tabards alone. Besides Sons Of Hodir, gotta do the quests, but there are alot of them.

    Also, you can try to switch to a Frost spec for the damage mitigation.

    I'd switch the meta gem for the +32STA/2% armor one. The shield block is wasted for DKs. If you need the defense. I'd use the Seal Of The Pantheon from regular HoL till you get enough defense from gear.

    Also, make sure you don't have mobs behind you when tanking. Use your CDs liberally, IBF is on a 60sec CD, that's almost every pull. Use it on big pulls so that the healer has some leeway at the start of the fight. Use your CDs proactively, not reactively. Know when you are going to take to much damage and use a CD to mitigate it.

    Something that I've been trying to get better about is using your interrupts. You'd be surprised how much damage difference it can make, especially if no one else is doing it. KT is a big example of this. His Frostbolt is a big difference if someone isn't interrupting it.

  4. #4
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    Spec - The only 'mitigation/avoidance' tweak I can suggest is Magic Suppression and possibly AMZ. You're skipping a number of threat/dps talents, but those don't relate significantly to survival. However, read my thoughts later.

    Gear - solid. Entry raid level IMO, Uld10/Naxx 25. I wouldn't push Uld25 unless you're backed with solid healers, and even then, I would expect you to focus on OT or specific fight roles. Meta gem though... get Austere (32 stam/2% armor bonus) instead (nice catch MoG).

    I think the core issue is using Unholy itself, not that your spec is 'fail'. The talents favor either magic heavy fights, or avoidance heavy gear on single targets. H CoS is a great example, where you facing packs of melee mobs that eat your Boneshield like kids on Halloween, then you're soaking damage.

    Your options are to focus on more avoidance (Sons of Hodir rep shoulder enchants, adjust gear to buff defense/dodge) and/or shift talents to improve DPS output to reduce the duration of damage intake. IE, if the pull only lasts 20 seconds and Boneshield is eaten in the 'minimum' 12, you're only having a damage spike of 8 seconds, possibly with a mobs already dead before BS drops. Every second you have to eat damage is pressure on your healer, and some can't keep up.

  5. #5
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    (My Character: The World of Warcraft Armory)

    I've run into the same issue, with healers not being able to keep me up. I'm not sure if it's them or me either... /shrug

    I'm just going to do the best I can and hopefully be able to stack enough stam/dodge/def to where eventually they won't be able to complain any more... hopefully...

  6. #6
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    blood is a better spec for tanking heroics due to the abundancy of self healing to offset damage intake. DK damage can be very bursty (have a healer alt as well) and at other times it's like why did you need a healer again?

    Get recount, look over what happens every time you died and work on refining that. Usually if you didn't get heals for a while it means that the raid/party was taking damage from either aoe or a loose add. Usually the latter. Healers react to the fastest depreciating life bar, this should be you!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadevarr View Post
    ...at other times it's like why did you need a healer again?...
    Thats a DK chaining cool downs and self healing, usually nothing more; a good CD chain can really make a difference. Druids can achieve similar but lesser results using Barkskin and ILotP along with some good crits. The self healing is really just gravy cause it's not enough to be relied upon.

    DK c.d.'s are awesome in heroics.

    Be a Champion, not a hero.
    Drae

    http://www.zetbit.com/sig-1454507.jpg


  8. #8
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    Since dual spec came out I've been playing DPS in heroics much more than I used to. I'd say that bad tanks and bad healers are about equally distributed.

    Bad tanking is more obvious. You're always tripping over adds, mobs run amok, people die. It's pretty easy to see who is at fault there.

    Bad healing is a little more subtle. If the tank is overgeared -- and a lot of them are nowadays -- you can get away with bad healing a lot of the time. I've had absolutely terrible healers get accolades from the DPS when, as a tank, I was scrambling to stay alive on almost every pull. Then, suddenly, they get a tank who has marginal gear (or even just normal gear for the instance) and they can't keep him up. Clearly it's not their fault, they've run fifty heroics with Phatlootz McEpicpants from their guild, and never had a problem. So it must be the tank's fault.

  9. #9
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    Bad healing is a little more subtle. If the tank is overgeared -- and a lot of them are nowadays -- you can get away with bad healing a lot of the time. I've had absolutely terrible healers get accolades from the DPS when, as a tank, I was scrambling to stay alive on almost every pull. Then, suddenly, they get a tank who has marginal gear (or even just normal gear for the instance) and they can't keep him up. Clearly it's not their fault, they've run fifty heroics with Phatlootz McEpicpants from their guild, and never had a problem. So it must be the tank's fault.
    Oh that is so going into my signature...

  10. #10
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    Here are a couple things from a healing perspective..

    1) DK tanks can be annoying to heal. DK's tend to be more RNG sensitive than other tanking classes. The damage they take is bursty and inconsistent. Personally, while I can heal DK tanks, I usually try to avoid it unless I know I have a really good group and that even goes for players that play other tanks very well.

    2) Of the two heroics you mentioned I can totally see how some healers can have trouble in CoS, but be fine in HoS. Here is a little story. A while back, I had just finished up healing a naxx run. We had just did Military through KT. We broke up for the evening but some of us when to do a timed CoS run as a guild didn't have the drake yet. We came close to whipping and would have if I wasn't on my toes and still mostly raid buffed. I would say that depending on your class healing the first boss in CoS can be much more difficult than KT or Saph. (if you want more information on why let me know).

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnon View Post
    (My Character: The World of Warcraft Armory)

    I've run into the same issue, with healers not being able to keep me up. I'm not sure if it's them or me either... /shrug

    I'm just going to do the best I can and hopefully be able to stack enough stam/dodge/def to where eventually they won't be able to complain any more... hopefully...
    In your case, you're using uncommon gems & lacking enchants (according to your armory). You could easily be carrying another 58 def rating (AC helm enchant for 20, Chest -22, Cloak - 16) in enchants, and 147 stamina (AC helm enchant, Wrist 40, Pants 55, Boots 22). Thats a lot of oomph you're missing, and it equates to both avoidance & health.

    All that enchanting is before you start shifting gems to towards stamina, instead on 'only' defense/dodge. Pure avoidance is nice, but stamina gives healers both a larger health pool to 'absorb' a damage spike, but also the luxury of using larger, slower heals as you can't be burned down suddenly.

    Finally, Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight, 15 badges.

    Aside: I have been gearing my protadin alt finally, as a change of pacing. Healers are content, but a raidmate (healer) commented that having a 25k health pool is very different from healing my DK's 36k health pool. In some cases, the paladin has to hope for a crit to ensure the protadin survives, while the DK will soak it up and not be in danger of dying on the next major swing or special attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by cker View Post
    Here are a couple things from a healing perspective..

    1) DK tanks can be annoying to heal. DK's tend to be more RNG sensitive than other tanking classes. The damage they take is bursty and inconsistent. Personally, while I can heal DK tanks, I usually try to avoid it unless I know I have a really good group and that even goes for players that play other tanks very well.
    Druids suffer the same issue, but trade the cooldowns DKs have for health and armor. Ergo, you have have leeway on healing DKs. I've personally bumped other tanks off assignments as utilizing cooldowns radically changes how much damage a DK intakes. Blow IBF early in a multi-mob pull can make all the difference, as by the time IBF fades, a mob is down and things are undercontrol with fewer mobs beating on the tank.

    I think the key issue with DKs is getting over both a health and avoidance bump in gearing, where druids simply stack agility & warriors/paladins have block to slightly improve mitigation overall. Cooldowns help, but it's hard to sustain them constantly, thus opening 'windows' where the DK has to avoid/mitigate purely on gear/spec, and struggle as a result.

  12. #12
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    Something I've noticed about the DK tank in my own guild (as well as a few others), after pouring over lots and lots of combatlogs is that DK's seem to have MUCH lower mitigation than other tanking classes. Not sure exactly why, but WoWCardio, WWS, etc. all seem to repeat this. As has been mentioned above, the way around this is through the non-rotation abilities. IBF, Unbreakable Armor, AMS/AMZ, etc. etc.

    Honestly, until 3.2 (and maybe even then) DK's have been the best tanks in the game, but they have to be played right and geared right. It's frustrating... that's kind of why I gave up tanking on my DK.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esch View Post
    Druids suffer the same issue, but trade the cooldowns DKs have for health and armor. Ergo, you have have leeway on healing DKs. I've personally bumped other tanks off assignments as utilizing cooldowns radically changes how much damage a DK intakes. Blow IBF early in a multi-mob pull can make all the difference, as by the time IBF fades, a mob is down and things are undercontrol with fewer mobs beating on the tank.

    I think the key issue with DKs is getting over both a health and avoidance bump in gearing, where druids simply stack agility & warriors/paladins have block to slightly improve mitigation overall. Cooldowns help, but it's hard to sustain them constantly, thus opening 'windows' where the DK has to avoid/mitigate purely on gear/spec, and struggle as a result.
    I would say that, from experience, there are a lot less "holy cow, I am going to loose him/her" moments with druid tanks. Even ones that are still in the gearing up process. Personally it feels like I have less, rather than more, leeway on a DK tank. It may simply be an issue of skill on the part of DK tanks I have healed (I can tell you it's not a gear issue), or just random bad luck. But it seems like DK tanks are more sensitive to that random bad luck than other tanks.

    I completely agree with your second paragraph and included it for emphasis.

  14. #14
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    Bracer: get +40 stam.
    Head: get the Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector (+37stam + 20 def) enchant from Argent Crusade (revered)
    Shoulder: get the +20dodge rating + 15 def. from SoH - buy the damn rep if you cba to grind it. - the +30 stam enchant is nice and the resi can help you get past the def. cap if needed but I still like the SoH better.
    (Quest chain starts at K3)

    Gemming: In general ignore socket bonus unless its +9 stam. and socket +24 stam in everything. - use +8 dodge + 12 stam in rest (red socket). Change Meta to "Austere Earthsiege Diamond" +32 stam + 2% increases Armor value from items. - and only requires 2 blue and 1 red gem. (so you need at least 1 +8 dodget + 12 stam gem)

    Get some badge loot Asap... chest, gloves.

    I would also drop your sigil as you are already past def. cap (535 for Heroics - but go for 540 in case you get a Naxx pug).
    Get a sigil that increases dps = more tps. (threat)

    Get your proffessions maxed out:
    Mining: gives a slight stam boost and BS gives you 2 more sockets.

    Spec: I have only tanked as Frost or Blood, but a few things:
    Night of the Dead??? get Epidemic instead.
    And for UH tanking I would get the Magic suppression and AMZ into my spec.
    you are also way too low on Expertise, so skipping 4 points in Rage og Rivendare??
    But anyhow I would suggest you change to either Frost or Blood spec for tanking...

    Flask/elixirs:
    Flask: Flask of Stone blood (1300 hp)
    Elixir: Elixir of Mighty Fortitude (350 HP) and Elixir of Mighty Fortitude (50 str).
    Food: with your low Expertise I would suggest you use the "Rhinolicious Wormsteak" (40 Expertise rating + 40 stam.)
    Personally I use +40hit +40 stam food as I am low in hit.

    Though I am not totally happy about my current spec it does the job: The World of Warcraft Armory
    I got 46500 HP raid buffed with an Imp
    About 58% total avoidance.

    I hope you find this usefull.
    Good luck.
    /Wolf :Q

    PS: To the healers QQ'ing here... DK tanks are made to rely on their CD's but we also have a lot of mitigation, even after the most recent nerfs to Frost pressence. I have had no problems tanking as DK in anyting - and I was a Warrior tank before, but swapped as I find DK tanking more fun.

    PPS: I guess I am that "Phatlootz McEpicpants " in comparrison to you, but you still should do OK in Heroics, though you really need more HP.

  15. #15
    you can use some more dodge, but you are fine for heroics for sure.
    If you did H HoS fine, but couldn't do CoS, that blares CRAPPY HEALS really loud,
    as CoS is a very easy dungeon, HoS, still being easy imo, is harder. If you soloed a heroic boss from 37% you are not the one at fault probably..

    Anyhow, only thing I can see is you might need some more avoidance for hard hitting bosses [The ogre boss [sorry if i dont have the species right, lol] in CoS might be hard hitting for low geared tanks, I dunno because I never tried it til i was pretty wel geared for 5 mans, So it could be that you are having trouble on the bosses you need more avoidance for, than mitigation, I haven't run HoS that much so I don't know what types of bosses it has, and I dont know shit about DK tanks either, so this is speculation.

    To help improve your tanking, finish leveling your smithing and add 2 sockets to your gear [at level 400 BS], and get your mining up so you have the highest rank of the stam buff.

  16. #16
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    Looking at your stats you dont have much dodge or parry and your armour is really rather low for a DK, but you are defense capped and your health isnt too bad. Becuase of your lack of mitigation tho its gonna be hard work for the healers tho trying to keep you up. You should be fine for heroics, and naxx 10. Ulduar 10 and Emalon in voa might be too much for you at present. This is all in my opinion ofc! Gemming/enchanting not only for stamina but also for some avoidance would really help a lot. I also play healer too and have experience of tanks with lots of health and too little avoidance sometimes its nearly impossible to keep them up. You are massively overcapped on defense atm so maybe change your bracer and/or chest enchants. Personally I prefer +10 stats on the chest and +40 stamina on bracers.

  17. #17
    Defense cap isnt the limit to how much you can use, defense raises your dodge and parry, even after 540. You tell him he needs avoidance, but then to replace avoidance with stamina..

  18. #18
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    Does the armoury take into account the defence from SSG? If it does then this guy isn't def capped. Even with flasks/potions.

  19. #19
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    To the defence of healers, some of it is your fault. One of the pros (and cons) of being in a PUG is it helps you find your weaknesses as a tank. I personally wouldn't depend on Icy touch too much on helping me achieve the minimum def rating (689) requirements for a heroic 5 man and/or a raid. Some reasons being, what if I accidentally forget to Icy touch and what if there's an accidental pull that I need to respond to quickly?

    If you're noticing spotty heals and dpsers that aren't being scrupulous with their positioning, then you have to adjust you're pulling to accomodate this deficiency. Spotty heals means you should either 1. Find a new healer 2. Pull smaller more managable groups/mobs (if you can) 3. Adjust cooldown rotations or 4. A combination of all or some of what I said. Same goes for the dps also be vocal and tell them what you don't want them todo. I follow this maxim (as incorrect as it might be) 70% of the problems are the tank's fault, 20% healer's, and 10% dps. You're the tank and you're essentially the "boss" and largely determine the tempo (speed at which you are pulling) of the instance with the healers playing a role in this determination. Yes, there are some instances where group coordination play a role, but for the most part a majority of encounters are totally up to the tank to control.

    One key to group success is the tank's confidence level. If you're meeting the suggested requirements made by some very intelligent people with hard math to back it up, you're going to boost the groups confidence level up as a whole. You want them to look at you and say to themselves, "This tank knows his shit". That's a big victory now you just have to execute the instance in more than one sense of the meaning of execute.

    The first few pulls of an instance can be very helpful in determining your tempo. Also don't assume you're group members will know what todo or what to expect. Tell them what to expect as clearly as possible often, and sparingly telling what todo. Reason why you want to tell them what todo sparingly is because most people don't like being told what todo on a consistent basis. It's just the nature of the beast. There's a difference between telling them what to expect and what todo so use this to your advantage as a group leader.

    Find and abide by the solid ground work established, and always keep your head up high and always try your best. You want to be an amazing tank not an average tank!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Does the armoury take into account the defence from SSG? If it does then this guy isn't def capped. Even with flasks/potions.
    He is using Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight to cap defense...not the best practice IMO but it works until one can get enough defense through other means.

    I think you're well on the right track. I agree with what Bluepepper just stated as well...confidence makes a huge difference. In PUGs, I pretty much always ask for group lead, mark up at least a skull so people arent pulling the rest of the mobs off me, and give them a quick direction on boss fights or out of the norm pulls. I don't mean a lot of details, but even something as simple as "make sure you kill the purple one first and stay out of the green stuff on the ground" can make the difference between a wipe and a fast easy HC run.

    TBH, I would swap out that 275 health for a +22 def or +10 stats, and aim for getting yourself off of the Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight as soon as possible. The Sigil of Awareness from Naxx25 (or Valor badges) is a GREAT threat generator and should carry you until you get some nice 25m Ulduar Sigils.

    If you are really keen on keeping Unholy as your spec, go for it and get really good with it...I ran with it for a while, but moving into Ulduar 25 I was having threat and mitigation issues and went Blood instead which resolved both of those issues. Perhaps you will have different results.

    Best of Luck!

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