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Thread: Weapon speed for TPS in 3.2

  1. #21
    Ah you are very correct >_< Silly mistake. That makes the numbers:
    (178.8+(4000/14))*2.6*0.48*1.1*0.95 = 605.80
    (178.8+(4000/14))*1.6*0.48*1.1*0.95 = 372.80
    Difference: 233

    Okay at this point I'm pretty sure I must be doing something wrong. If the difference is 233 damage per deep wounds, than slow weapons are already preferable.
    233*252*2.0735=121747.63

  2. #22
    0:00'49.224 Anub’Rekhan suffers 426 Physical damage from Githeree Deep Wounds. #542652
    0:00'50.320 Anub’Rekhan suffers 426 Physical damage from Githeree Deep Wounds. #542927
    0:00'51.276 Anub’Rekhan suffers 426 Physical damage from Githeree Deep Wounds. #543141
    0:00'51.475 Anub’Rekhan's Deep Wounds is refreshed. #543202
    0:00'52.504 Anub’Rekhan suffers 250 Physical damage from Githeree Deep Wounds. #543535
    0:00'53.627 Anub’Rekhan suffers 192 Physical damage from Githeree Deep Wounds. #543874
    0:00'54.501 Anub’Rekhan suffers 192 Physical damage from Githeree Deep Wounds. #544138
    0:00'54.829 Githeree Deep Wounds was removed from Anub’Rekhan

    WOW - this is different than I thought it worked.

  3. #23
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    Yeah--that last 426 is the penultimate tick of the previous Deep Wounds, so there's only 426 damage left in that Deep Wounds stack. That 426 gets split up among the six ticks of the next stack, only adding 71 to each tick. As a note, I checked back just to make sure I knew what the drop from 250 to 192 was--it was the result of this event:

    0:00'53.144 Numa Mangle (Cat) was removed from Anub'Rekhan. #543755
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  4. #24
    Right so I think I know why my numbers are so off, I only checked more Deep Wounds gain assuming the number of attacks with a 2.6s weapon. So lets fix that.

    Total damage from deep wounds is:
    ((240/Weapon speed)+(240+1.5))*0.3*(178.8+(4000/14))*Weapon Speed*0.48*1.1*0.95=[Total DW Dmg]

    Weapon speed @ 1.6:
    ((240/1.6)+(240+1.5))*0.3*(178.8+(4000/14))*1.6*0.48*1.1*0.95=43785.43

    Weapon speed @ 2.6:
    ((240/2.6)+(240+1.5))*0.3*(178.8+(4000/14))*2.6*0.48*1.1*0.95=60666.31

    Damage gain from Deep Wounds: 16880.88
    Adding devastate damage: 16880.88+14947.68=31828.56
    Damage lost = 58*495*1.1*0.95=30001.95
    Total damage gained/lost=31828.56-30001.95=1826.61
    Threat lost from 2.6s weapon:
    1826.61-(58*259)*2.0735=27360.65
    Which equates to roughly 114 TPS.

    Basically if you can spam heroic strike, fast weapon = more TPS, slow weapon = tiny bit more dps.

    Now there is a minor "but", namely that a slower weapon would scale better with attack power and crit through deep wounds that a fast weapon. I think 4k AP is very reasonable for an Ulduar tank, but if you were to compare the 2 at 5k AP, the benefit from deep wounds would be:

    Weapon speed @ 1.6:
    ((240/1.6)+(240+1.5))*0.3*(178.8+(5000/14))*1.6*0.48*1.1*0.95=50518.33

    Weapon speed @ 2.6:
    ((240/2.6)+(240+1.5))*0.3*(178.8+(5000/14))*2.6*0.48*1.1*0.95=69994.99

    Which is a ~2.6k larger difference than at 4k AP. Certanly not enough to make slow weapons preferable for TPS in an infinite rage situation, but maybe enough to swap to a slower weapon once you've got a considerable threat lead over the DPS.

    Also, in low rage situations, a slow weapon will probably be worth it regardles.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuffmuffin View Post
    Damage Shield hasn't been "critting" since Ulduar came out in 3.1. Critical Block doesn't make it count as a crit either, so Deep Wounds does not proc off it at all anymore. And yes, they made Damage Shield unaffected by Recklessness.
    yeah i took a 3 month AFK when Ulduar came out. I miss my recklessness + Shield Block macro. Amazing trash threat! Thnx for the confirmation!

    Be a Champion, not a hero.
    Drae

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  6. #26
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    http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...ZBqjoe2lVwXhrQ

    I have been working on this since I found out the exact changes to Devastate in 3.2 on the PTR. It is a spreadsheet that shows the threat values of the primary tanking abilities for prot warriors including: HS, SS, Devastate, Conc Blow, and Shockwave.

    It has Deep Wounds added in, but I haven't really decided, or figured out tbh, how to deal with that mechanic yet due to how it stacks. The Deep Wounds threat output is quite a bit lower than it should be, but I really would prefer to do it right then add in some simple multiplier (like 2 or 3) to get it closer.

    In the upper left corner just input your weapon speed, average weapon damage (from the tool tip; max + min divided by 2), AP, SBV and buffed Crit chance. Below it will calculate out the damage and threat for hits and crits along with figuring out the average threat per use. To find the average threat per uses: (Hit threat * % normal hit chance) + (crit threat * % crit chance)

    I found the TPS for HS, Devastate and Deep Wounds (which is flawed) and added them up to find the total amount of our TPS that is based on weapon damage.

    I primarily made this little spreadsheet to handle calculations I was doing myself on slow v. fast weapons in 3.2 with the Devastate change. If my equations are correct the difference between a fast and slow weapon is almost entirely removed with the Devastate change depending on your HS:white ratio. At a 2:1 HS:white ratio slow and fast weapons are basically dead even, with a possible slight edge going to a faster weapon. If you go to 3:1 ratio the faster weapon is a better choice, but still not by a whole lot. If you go down to a 1:1 ratio the slow weapon really starts pulling on the fast weapon.

    One very interesting thing I have noticed is that in 3.2 there is going to be virtually no reason to use either Conc Blow or Shockwave in a single target threat rotation since Devastate will give more TPS on average and has a greater threat per rage efficiency. If you are tanking two targets Shockwave will be better than Devastate, but that is a given.

    I am posting this to have the numbers checked and for some feed back on how to get the Deep Wounds TPS more accurate. Naturally any other feed back would be nice as well.

  7. #27
    Isn't deep wounds threat simply subject to the 2.0735 theat modifier of defensive stance? I could check I guess, but I assumed it was.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warloco View Post
    Isn't deep wounds threat simply subject to the 2.0735 theat modifier of defensive stance? I could check I guess, but I assumed it was.
    This is true, but it is the stacking which makes it tricky. I simply found out how much TPS one application of Deep Wounds does (dmg/6 * 2.0735) then applied the uptime of the ability (I am getting around 85% uptime according to my parses). When you start trying to account for stacking of Deep Wounds it gets interesting.

  9. #29
    It's actually pretty simple, every crit is average weapon damage * 1.1 (1 handed weapon spec ) * 0.95. You're only making things a lot more complex for yourself if you try to caculate it on a per tick and stacked tick basis, because the end result is identical.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warloco View Post
    It's actually pretty simple, every crit is average weapon damage * 1.1 (1 handed weapon spec ) * 0.95. You're only making things a lot more complex for yourself if you try to caculate it on a per tick and stacked tick basis, because the end result is identical.

    I don't think you quite understand how hard it is to model something like how Deep Wounds stacks. There are quite a few equations that go into modeling something like that. You have to run a simulation for about a minute or so to run a complete cycle of GCD's based on the ever changing rotation due to Sword and Board procs. You have to account for every single attack that goes out in a set time frame when you have each with a different crit rate and frequency of use based on a rather annoying priority system. I'm going to assume you haven't done much theorycrafting if you think this is something easy to model accurately.

  11. #31
    You're missing my point, it may be hard to simulate a real world rotation- and it is probably hard to simulate stacking deep wounds ticks. However there's no benefit at all in simulating it in that way unless you were trying to generate a realistic combatlog for your simulation. If you're only trying to generate Damage or Threat results of your simulation, then you should simply look at the number of crits and multiply that by the damage a deep wounds proc does- because it will give you accurate results.

  12. #32
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    Jathine: Go back and look at my post about DW again. As Warloco says, the stacking is irrelevant. In isolation, a single DW proc gets you 0.48 weapon damage additional damage (multiplied by threat modifiers). The way DW "stacks" simply ensures that all of the damage for each DW proc gets done. The end effect is that even when not isolated, each single DW proc gets you 0.48 weapon damage.
    Learn to science and stop theorycrapping in its tracks.

  13. #33
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    If I remember correctly, there was a very brief time period following the 3.0 launch during which deep wound simply ramped up by stacking its damage per tick, rather than rolling over only the remaining damage. Offhand swings also added a fixed value based on mainhand damage (rather than offhand damage). That week, our fury warrior pulled something along the lines of 1500 dps from deep wound alone using a warglaive MH/dagger OH combo on Brutallus. The max tick which occured just before Brutallus died dealt just under 7000 damage (mind - at level 70 still). Less than a week later, deep wounds was reworked to the model Hypatia described above.

    -Splug

  14. #34
    Seems like the hardest part would be to determine what an actual crit chance is averaged over our entire usage of abilities that all have varying crit chances A single WWS of single-target boss fights that you tanked for an evening would probably be close enough to use for your personal model, Jathine.

    (avg crit chance) * (# attacks while with 1.6 or 2.6 weapon) * [(0.48) * (avg weapon damage@1.6 or 2.6)] * 2.0735 * 1.1 * 0.95 = DW threat?

  15. #35
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    Just want to say that I the Imp Defensive Stance's Enrage should also be factored in here. So when you are doing modifiers, it would 95% for Defensive Stance, 110% for One-Hand Spec, and 110% for the enrage (which for all but the first couple seconds of the fight should be up and affecting your Deep Wounds).

  16. #36
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    I was playing around with Jathines spreadsheet. What I've noticed is with his default settings the priority list for the abilities was still the same as it has used to be:



    What I've noticed is that devastate beats every ability in avarage Threat if you use a slow weapon with a low avarage damage of 400.

    So does this mean you have to just spam HS and devestate the whole time to obtain your maximum threat? or do I missunderstand something here?

    The same happens if you use a fast 1.6 weapon with a high avarage damage of 400. Devastate again beats every other ability in plain avg. Threat.

    I hope I am mistaken because it would be pretty boring to spam hs + devestate only :C

  17. #37
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    With the 100% damage from Devastate, does that mean fast weapons with HS spam still beat slow weapons for Devastate spam in terms of threat?

  18. #38
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    Threat, but not DPS has been the conclusion

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