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Thread: Weapon speed for TPS in 3.2

  1. #1

    Weapon speed for TPS in 3.2

    Currently to maximize your TPS your need a fast weapon. The reason for this is to allow you to spam heroic strike a lot faster. As far as I know, that's the only (or main) reason in favor of fast tanking weapons.

    There's 2 reasons why one might want a slower, or rather- higher damage weapon:
    1] Devastate does 50% of weapon damage
    2] Deep wounds is weapon damage based

    Now in 3.2:
    Devastate: Weapon damage and bonus per Sunder Armor on the target increased by 100%.
    I'm not sure what this means exactly; I would guess that it means devastate does 100% weapon damage, but when I look it up on Wowhead: You'll be back. it shows 60%. My question however is: would a change like this make us favor slower weapons?

  2. #2
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    Deep wounds would likely fall off the mob more often with a slower weapon as there would be less hits that might crit and refresh it.

    Heroic Strike will still be spammed almost all the time in 3.2 (More in truth given the rage on dodge/parry/block) so a faster weapon is still of alot of value here.

    The devastate change has two parts the base damage it does is increased to 60% of weapon damage insted of 50%, also the added damage each rank of devastate does per sunder has been increased by 100%. At rank 5 the added damage per sunder was 101 so now it'll be 202.

    Well this is a nice buff only the extra 10% weapon damage would favor a slower weapon and that does not outweigh the extra Heroic Stike's from a fast weapon.

    The change I can see the Devastate buff having is in the priority of Devastate against Conc Blow or Shockwave against bosses I am not sure how Devastate will now stack up against those two. (Given the 5 sunders are up already)
    Last edited by Strucker; 07-20-2009 at 05:53 AM. Reason: Fixed some of my poor typing
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  3. #3
    Melee swings/heroic strike will only account for maybe half your attacks, having a slower melee swing wouldn't notably impact your deep wounds uptime IMO. Where as the higher weapon damage would definitely make for porportionally higher deep wounds damage.

    If it's indeed 60%, then I also doubt it will make the 'needed' difference ti bridge the gap. The quote I cited however suggests a 100% increase. So I'm not sure what to expect from that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    Deep wounds would likely fall off the mob more often with a slower weapon as there would be less hits that might crit and refresh it.
    Just wanted to note that this is irrelevant. Deep Wounds does 48% of your melee weapon's average damage over 6s. If it hits again in the meantime, the remainder of the previous "stack" is added to the new stack.

    In short: every time you crit, you do 48% of your melee weapon's average damage. Period. Uptime doesn't matter.

    In fact, if you think about it: the slower the weapon is, the more effective Deep Wounds is. Why? Because it's your weapon damage, not your weapon DPS. So all of your GCD-based abilities gain a damage advantage because you do a proportion of 3.0s weapon damage every 1.5s, whereas a 1.6 speed weapon would be a proportion of 1.6s weapon damage every 1.5s.


    Anyway, the important thing: uptime on Deep Wounds is a useless statistic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warloco View Post
    There's 2 reasons why one might want a slower, or rather- higher damage weapon:
    1] Devastate does 50% of weapon damage
    2] Deep wounds is weapon damage based
    I'm pretty sure Devastate is normalized for weapon damage. I know it always used to be, anyway. Can anyone confirm this?

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    When you crit while Deep Wounds is up the damage it deals is increased by 48% of weapon damage and the timer is refreashed. If you keep refreshing it the dot keeps growing, the dot does not decrease as older procs run their 6 seconds, it either grows or falls off completely. That is what makes Deep Wounds so insanely good on boss fights like Loatheb with the free + crit chance.

    Given this mechanic you can see why uptime has some nice DPS/Threat consequences. Yes slower weapons make each proc do more damage but faster weapons keep the proc refreshed better and therefore growing better.
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    If it's indeed 60%, then I also doubt it will make the 'needed' difference ti bridge the gap. The quote I cited however suggests a 100% increase. So I'm not sure what to expect from that.
    The 100% increase in the patch notes reffers to how much the static damage per sunder is increased not how much the percent of weapon damage used is increased.

    The latest patch notes said the percent of weapon damage used will be 60% (up from 50%)
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    That's not how I'm reading it Strucker,

    [blizzard]Devastate: Weapon damage and bonus per Sunder Armor on the target increased by 100%.[/blizzard]
    That to me looks like the weapon damage AND the bonus per sunder armor is being increased.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    When you crit while Deep Wounds is up the damage it deals is increased by 48% of weapon damage and the timer is refreashed. If you keep refreshing it the dot keeps growing, the dot does not decrease as older procs run their 6 seconds, it either grows or falls off completely. That is what makes Deep Wounds so insanely good on boss fights like Loatheb with the free + crit chance.

    Given this mechanic you can see why uptime has some nice DPS/Threat consequences. Yes slower weapons make each proc do more damage but faster weapons keep the proc refreshed better and therefore growing better.

    That is incorrect. When Deep Wounds is refreshed, the *remainder* of the previous Deep Wounds stack's damage is added to the new stack. Let's say your base weapon swing does 1000 damage on average.

    T1: DW procs for 480 damage over 6s (tick every 1s).
    T2: Tick for 80 (480 / 6), remaining damage to do is 400.
    T3: DW procs for 480 damage over 6s. 400 is added to that, so 880 damage over 6s.
    T4: Tick for 147 (880 / 6), remaining damage to do is 733.
    T5: DW procs for 480 damage over 6s. 733 is added to that, so 1213 damage over 6s.
    T6: Tick for 203, remaining damage to do is 1010.
    T7: Tick for 202, remaining damage to do is 808.
    T8: Tick for 202, remaining damage to do is 606.
    T9: Tick for 202, remaining damage to do is 404.
    T10: Tick for 202, remaining damage to do is 202.
    T11: Tick for 202, debuff wears off.

    Total damage from ticks: 1440, which is 480 * 3.

    You get 48% of weapon damage every time you crit, period. The "stacking" simply allows you to get the full benefit of the ability, instead of the prior behavior where overwriting the DW early would result in "wasted" damage. (i.e. the ticks above would all be for 160 in the previous model.)

    As a result, weapon speed matters in that the slower weapons have a higher average weapon damage but less normal melee swings (but the same number of GCD attacks, assuming you use an ability on every GCD.) This works out to be always in favor of slower weapons, because you gain much more from the larger damage than you lose from the smaller number of basic melee swings.

    The crit bonus boss fight effect is a huge bonus because that 48% of base weapon damage added to every crit contributes a lot. If it behaved as you said and increased the effect each time without removing the "already used" part it would be more than a lot, it would be ridiculously overpowered.

    Which is, of course, why it works the way it does.

    If you doubt me, please examine this log parse from WWS. Note that there is some variation due to what debuffs are on the boss, and what buffs are on the players. But the pattern is apparent. Particularly examine the cases where DW is refreshed but the damage of the next set of ticks is smaller. Not all of these can be explained by buffs and debuffs wearing off.


    Short form is: Deep Wounds is effectively identical to adding 48% of your average basic melee swing to every crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Petninja View Post
    I'm pretty sure Devastate is normalized for weapon damage. I know it always used to be, anyway. Can anyone confirm this?
    Like other abilities that are normalized, it is the damage contribution from attack power that is normalized. The weapon's damage range is not normalized. So a fast weapon and a slow weapon of the same type (for example, a tanking 1H sword and a DPS 1H sword) with the same listed DPS value would have the same damage bonus from your attack power DPS, but different contributions from the weapon's listed DPS.

    That difference tends to be small compared to the normalized portion of the damage done, but it's still big enough to be significant.
    Last edited by Hypatia; 07-21-2009 at 12:13 AM. Reason: Added WWS parse, fixed to 1s ticks from 2s ticks.
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    Shouldn't Deep Wounds damage be the same with a fast or slow weapon?

    With a slow weapon, you will crit less, but DW will tick for more damage than a faster weapon on each crit.

    With a fast weapon, you crit more, letting DW stack ontop of itself more often.

    But once you factor in instants, a slower weapon would probably benefit DW more.

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    Looking only at white hits and GCDs, over an example of 4 minutes (240 seconds): 160 GCD abilities, 150 melee swings with 1.6 speed, 92 melee swings with 2.6 speed.

    310 chances to crit verse 252 chances to crit.

    However, what you really need to be watching for is Heroic Strike. With a 2.6 speed weapon, that's potentially 58 less times you can use heroic strike. Every heroic strike is 495 damage and 259 threat. So over 4 minutes that's a potential 28710 (120 DPS) damage and 90678 (378 TPS) threat.

    [Threat = (495 + 259)*58 * 2.0735]

    Switching to a slower weapon, even though DW and Devastate Damage/Threat goes up, there's just no way to make up the loss of
    Heroic Strikes.

    With a 178.8 DPS weapon, and figuring around 4k AP, going from a 1.6 speed weapon to a 2.6 speed weapon increases an application of DW from ~466 up to ~552 (over 6 seconds), an increase of around 86 DW Damage per crit. Furthermore, this change will increase your Devastate damage by ~180 damage per devastate.

    Even assuming 50% of your GCDs are spent on devastate, and 30% of your 252 attacks crit, that would be 80 * 180 + 0.30*252*86 = 14,400 extra Devastate Damage + 6501 extra Deep Wounds Damage. So damage wise, if you are using Heroic Strike ~73% of the time, you would break even by switching to a slower weapon. If you are using HS more than 73% of the time, the faster weapon does more damage.

    Threat wise, the slow weapon is doing 43338 threat from the extra damage. So threat wise, the break even point is ~48% heroic strikes. If you use heroic strike on more than 48% of your melee swings, you lose threat by going to a slow weapon.

    [And remember, I was being generous to the Slow Weapon side by saying Devastates were 50% of GCDs and 30% of ALL of your GCD and Melee/HS attacks crit. You will use Devastate less, and you will crit less, thus swinging the numbers even more toward fast weapons]

    Unless something changes with how Heroic Strike works, I don't think we will be getting away from fast tanking weapons and HS Spam.

    [I keep editing this thing. Anyway, this of course all just applies for HS Spamming boss fights. On trash and heroics when you are not floating in rage, a slow weapon will yield you more damage and threat.]
    Last edited by Porcell; 07-21-2009 at 07:01 AM.

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    I agree fast weapons will remain king for HS spam. If you have a slow weapon of equal DPS I've found them to work well for AoE trash and rage starved situations. Deep wounds procs if somebody sneezes (even procs off of damage shield). This does tighten the gap for sure though - if you have access to a higher DPS slow weapon use it.

  13. #13
    1 notable mistake you're making is assuming the same % of heroic strikes on either side. The only real reason to not heroic strike is lack of rage. Or rather, the limitation to your number of heroic strikes is your rage. Almost all of your rage comes from damage taken, and as a result that means that the number of heroic strikes you do should be more or less equal on either side.

    That means that if the 1.6 weapon speed person can only heroic strike 73% of his attacks (109 attacks out of 150), then the 2.6 speed person can probably heroic strike 100% of his 92 melee swings. Ofcourse, this isnt accurate due to rage going up and down pretty fast, but you should atleast figure a higher heroic strike % on the side of the slower weapon.

    [edit]

    Also I'm pretty bad at melee DPS theorycrafting etc, my main is a caster. However I'm getting very different numbers from deepwounds. As far as I know, attackpower divided by 14 is the gain in DPS. Deep wounds damage according to this is:
    178.8+(4000/14)*1.6*0.48=356.75
    178.8+(4000/14)*2.6*0.48=579.71
    Difference: 222.96

    However I'm almost entirely certain that I'm making a mistake somewhere, since that would probably be enough to wedge TPS towards slow weapons pre 3.2 already.
    Last edited by Warloco; 07-21-2009 at 09:26 AM.

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    DW still procs off critical block damage shield? I thought they changed that... or maybe they changed it so recklessness didn't effect damage shield... i don't recall which; all I know is I can no longer pop recklessness + Shield Block and watch DW stack on 5 trashmobs.

    A slower weapon is better for DW. Period. That's why I have a helicopter fist weapon for trash.

    They really should normalize HS threat (I wish for dmg, but... ya right lol) against swing speed so that we can turn to slower weapons, more devestate and DW dmg would be a nice DPS buff for us warrior tanks.
    Last edited by drae; 07-21-2009 at 10:02 AM. Reason: missed a word

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarock View Post
    Deep wounds procs if somebody sneezes (even procs off of damage shield).
    Quote Originally Posted by drae
    DW still procs off critical block damage shield? I thought they changed that... or maybe they changed it so recklessness didn't effect damage shield... i don't recall which; all I know is I can no longer pop recklessness + Shield Block and watch DW stack on 5 trashmobs.
    Damage Shield hasn't been "critting" since Ulduar came out in 3.1. Critical Block doesn't make it count as a crit either, so Deep Wounds does not proc off it at all anymore. And yes, they made Damage Shield unaffected by Recklessness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    That's not how I'm reading it Strucker,



    That to me looks like the weapon damage AND the bonus per sunder armor is being increased.
    Very true, can anyone else confirm that it is in fact increased by 100% but not 60%? Or is the tooltip incorrect at the time being.

    Thanks.
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    The 100% change is going live on the PTR soon (maybe today?), Bukefal.
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    Thank you Hypatia

    Edit:

    Confirmed from the latest PTR build: Devastate now causes 100% of weapon damage (up from 60%) plus 202 (up from 121) at Rank 5. Lower ranks increased accordingly.
    Last edited by Bukefal; 07-21-2009 at 04:24 PM.
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  19. #19
    Right, I had to look around a bit to figure out how to properly calculate deep wounds damage, here's what I ended up with:

    (Weapon DPS+(AP/14))*Weapon speed*0.48*1.1*0.95

    *1.1 = One handed Weapon Specialisation
    *0.95 = Defensive stance

    I tried this formula with a couple of different (1h) weapons, and the numbers were consistently correct.

    So let me go over the above numbers:
    178.8+(4000/14)*1.6*0.48*1.1*0.95=408.10
    178.8+(4000/14)*2.6*0.48*1.1*0.95=551.42
    Difference: 143.32

    Needless to say these numbers are hugely different from what Porcell posted above.
    So, assuming 30% crit on 92 melee swings and 160 GCD's = (92+160)*143.32=36116.64

    With revenge the devastate change confirmed, we can now also say that the difference here is:
    160*0.5*((178.8*2.6)-(178.8*1.6))*0.95*1.1=14947.68
    Total damage gain: 51064.32
    Now if you apply the threat modifier of defensive stance, we get:
    51064.32*2.0735=105881.87 Threat.

    A total threat gain of 15k (or 63 TPS)
    Now I take it damage modifiers should be applied on the heroic strike side, so the numbers are slightly off. Lets fix that:
    (150-92)*((495*1.1*0.95)+259)*2.0735=93357.16 Threat

    [edit] Also note that the 2.6 weapon speed player consumed 58 times the rage cost of heroic strike less.
    This however does assume 30% crit across the board. Looking at a quick WWS I'm seeing:
    Heroic strike: 28% crit
    Shield Slam: 32% crit
    Devastate: 41% crit
    Revenge: 16% crit
    Thunderclap: 18% crit (this seems low :S)

    The rest doesn't really matter, because:
    a] The devastate buff probably takes concussive blow etc out of the TPS rotation.
    b] If we still have them in the rotation, devastate wouldn't be 50% of our GCD's

    Considering the above numbers, I think the assumed 30% crit is reasonable.

    [edit 2] I would really appreciate if someone who's got more expertise on melee dps theorycrafting to confirm or correct my numbers.
    Last edited by Warloco; 07-22-2009 at 06:38 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warloco View Post
    (Weapon DPS+(AP/14))*Weapon speed*0.48*1.1*0.95

    178.8+(4000/14)*1.6*0.48*1.1*0.95=408.10
    Please check your parenthesis:

    (178.8+(4000/14))*1.6*0.48*1.1*0.95 = 372.80
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