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Thread: Considering Block

  1. #21
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    Boss level mobs are coded as level 83.

    I think adding a level-linked modifier is, while different, still leaves you open to the function being blind to the input.

    If you have a super-hard hitting level 80, it's weak at one value, but the same value is way too powerful against a soft hitting 80.
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  2. #22
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    ok...

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    If you have a super-hard hitting level 80, it's weak at one value, but the same value is way too powerful against a soft hitting 80.
    I had thought about that after I posted...right now I'm thinking though - if a given level mob hits softer in melee...wouldn't said mob usually rely on other sources of damage for more of their "bang"? In other words - so what if block a larger portion of the damage from a caster-type - don't they rely more on spells for most of their damage-danger-level anyway?

    I'd also like to a comment about the attack-speed changing idea. While that looks pretty neat, I think warriors might be concerned about how that would affect our rage income...esp. vs. trash packs (where you block a lot and thus really slow down/spread out the attacks).

    I could see that ending up with a similar problem that we have with avoidance now...where it reaches the point of rage starvation if we avoid a lot. i.e. if we block (and slow attack speeds) a lot, that could also lead to rage starvation maybe?

  3. #23
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    Yeah, I think in general the problem is making it so it scales in all the right ways. Nothing compares yet to scaling it relative to the incoming damage, though that will nerf the current feeling of block-tanks against trash packs.

    Do you think Warriors/Paladins would be happy if Block did more against bosses and less against trash?
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  4. #24
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    thanks and to answer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Do you think Warriors/Paladins would be happy if Block did more against bosses and less against trash?
    Wow that is a tougher question than it looks lol

    I can only speak for myself from the warrior perspective:

    On the one hand, if we consider boss tanking (and esp. hard modes, which I will say up front I have not done), I think warriors would be happy with block doing more vs. bosses and could accept less vs. trash. Boss/hardmode encounters seem to be very important to a lot of prot warriors in that way.

    At the same time, I recognize that some prot warriors feel we get... "type cast" as the single-target specialists, or that we already have a tougher go of it with AOE tanking.

    In the current age of Naxx through Ulduar...a lot of trash pulls tend to be AOE pulls. So from that standpoint, I doubt those prot warriors who already feel as if we're behind in the AOE areas would be happy with a change where block was less effective vs. trash.

    My hunch is that this could change a lot over say the next 6 months or so - as it looks like Blizz is testing a change in direction regarding the "end game" content - going towards less trash (or less AOE pulls?) - but maybe less slower/harder hitting bosses (?) at the same time...so if we look far enough out...

    I think I am agreeing with you that block scaling with incoming damage amounts looking the best so far, for what that's worth.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Satorri View Post
    Do you think Warriors/Paladins would be happy if Block did more against bosses and less against trash?
    This warrior would. Though to be honest it would benefit Paladins much more than it would warriors, atleast as i see it. Warriors have critical block which if it still exists after the change would be that much more powerful. However since paladins can become "Unhittable", worst case they block everything, unless their talents/abilities were revamped they would knock this % off of every hit. Whereas warriors will become even more subject to spike damage due to sometimes avoiding, sometimes blocking large amounts and sometimes just having to soak the huge hits that are sure to come. I don't play a pally, but it seems to me since they can currently block every attack, the SBV is basically a form of EH for them. Maybe not as good as straight stam, but still a form of EH. If the amount they oculd block scaled up to a significant amount on Ulduar and beyond bosses, wouldn't that just be a HUGE EH increase for them?

    Boss hits for 30k. 2sec swing timer. 200 seconds. 100 hits.
    We'll say block scales up to a 33% mitigation.(Random number)

    Warrior
    25% Dodge, 20% parry, 10% miss, 20% block.
    55 Hits avoided/missed
    14 Hits blocked 10k per hit absorbed. Warrior takes 20k per blocked hit.
    6 Hits Critically Blocked 20k per hit absorbed. Warrior takes 10k per blocked hit.
    25 Hits 30k each on warrior

    Paladin
    25% Dodge 20% parry, 10% miss 45% block
    55 Hits avoided/missed
    45 hits blocked 10k each. Paladin takes 20k per blocked hit


    Worst case
    Warrior- 2 Hits in a row 30k each=60k
    Paladin- 2 Hits in a row 20k each=40k


    I THOUGHT i saw a post that said if they changed block to a scaled amount that classes would not be able to have 100% block uptime, but i may be mistaken. To me that said lots of revamp for the paladin class, so probably not something we're going to seen anytimes soon.

  6. #26
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    Yeah, if Block becomes a % reduction, Blizz will make it a point to have Protadins not block everything, even some of the time, at least that's what GC has said. It would essentially mean protadins just had a big chunk of extra armor.

    Right now it is what makes Warrior and Paladin block styles different, and interesting, though if they switch to % scaling on block it would also likely require warrior crit blocks to change, like say to 50% added reduction instead of double. Again, haven't played out the numbers thoroughly enough looking at balance.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  7. #27
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    So comparing to the current method, block still scales with attack swing speed, but it has an added benefit of pushing off more damage depending on block chance (increasing the value of block chance and keeping block value kind of a small deal).

    Against swarms the delay made for an additional 0.6% damage reduced, bruisers were reduced by an additional 0.96%, and boss damage was reduced by 1.2%.

    All in all, I think it's an interesting idea, but it doesn't quite fix the problem with scaling versus scale. It will still make warriors immune to small stuff and only marginally better suited against big stuff. It may require a lot more balancing between block value (balancing down) and de-haste balancing up. I somehow doubt Blizz would go for it since it makes it even more complicated and doesn't actually make it much better.
    well in the big scale of things how much more prevent are you really looking for... as blizzard has stated the tanks themselves are pretty close in performance... at least compared to previous eras... and theres also the added factor of time given to this... and it does still scale quite nicely with increased damages while not remaining effectivly armor...

    i mean i would love to be able to block for 10k on practicly every hit... but i just dont see that as reasonable... where that extra 1.2% in the exmaple seems to be more than enough to me to put the shield takes in a better posisition than they feel right now...

    i mean... for example.. im sure you can think of a number of times where you have died by just a little bit... maybe 200 or less... that extra .2 seconds is that much more room to get any kind of heal off to save you and get you topped back off... or say just 1% more health.. well at a modest 40k full raid buffed thats an extra 400 saving you... changing a barely dying to barely alive

    im not gonna argue that its the end all solution to the block issue... but it does feel alot more like a real life block by not just stoping some of the damage but slowing them down in the process

  8. #28
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    Perhaps inspiration from how a real shield is used?

    Type 1: Simple Block. Put the shield out to cover a side/zone against an incoming hit. Let the shield move with the hit but guide the force away from the body, or into a ready structure (side/hip with prepared stance).

    Type 2: Shelter. Bring the shield into the chest, collapse your body against it and behind it, and brace yourself to take a hit straight on.

    Type 3: Deflection. Like a weapon parry, bring the shield out to intercept the incoming blow and divert it's intended path/contact.

    Type 4: Charge/Bash/Counter. Intercept the attacker with a quick hit to choke their swing or compromise their balance so they cannot follow through with the attack.

    these are some awsome idea's. I always wished that are shield would become more of a offensive ability as well as give us more flexabilty defensevly. It would really revolutinize shield tanks and make them alot of fun. Having the ability to make choice's on how to go about blocking incoming dmg as well as having more control over heavy hitting mobs as well as soft hitting would be a interesting concept.

  9. #29
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    I currently mitigate ~20-25% of boss physical damage overall through block over the course of an entire fight. This might equate to ~4.5% additional mitigation on each hit.

  10. #30
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    Gad, I'll try to restate the issue even more simply than I have before, the message may get lost in the mountains of illustrations.

    Currently, static block value creates an inequitable scaling issue. Because you block for essentially a fixed value, Blizz has to decide where that balance point lies. Too low and it's meaningless against big hitting bosses, too high and it's grossly overpowered against small hitting mobs/trash.

    Your idea is a fine one, but it doesn't solve that problem of scaling, though it DOES make the scale slightly more favorable.

    The idea of making blocks mitigate a % of the hit makes it so the value is universal on every incoming attack in proportion, but it will appear as a nerf on tanking trash as the absorbed amount will be significantly smaller.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

  11. #31
    While I think that making block a percentage reduction in the hit is the right thing to do for warriors I think it's the wrong thing to do for paladins given their current design. I really don't want warrior and paladin to loose there unique ways of using this mechanic.

    Is there any thought on doing a different mechanic for each and what would be necessary to make them effectively equal over time while avoiding the pitfall of overwhelming RNG generated spike damage?

  12. #32
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    Can't speak for Blizzard, but if it were my game to design/program, I wouldn't want to manage splitting the same mechanic into two different classes each with their own, I think it's just a matter of adjusting current methods to fit a new system, should they go that way.

    So far we haven't seen what they're planning to do in the long run, the current PTR/3.2 changes will surely not be the final state of Block. That said, it will probably require the next expansion in order for it to be truly implemented, since it will require a heavy amount of re-coding.
    The (Old) Book on Death Knight Tanking
    The New Testament on Death Knight Tanking
    -----------------------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Horacio View Post
    Who f-ing divided by zero?!?

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