parry and dodge change question

[jere]

Well I think after some discussion with a poster from here, we came to the place where trying to ratio all 3 wasn't as effective as getting defense to a particular spot and then looking at the ratio of dodge/parry for optimization. Theck would probably remember best since it was his research. I may go see if I can dig it up.

Great, makes perfect sense. For some reason, I had come under the impression that dodge and parry had effect on each other.

Here's another question - how does Defense skill come into play? Defense adds X% to Dodge, Parry, Block, and Miss - but it is all subject to diminishing returns, right? What I'm curious about is how the diminishing returns are calculated. Is the Dodge, Parry, and Block from Defense added to the "undiminished" percentage that is calculated from rating, and then the entire percentage is reduced based on the hard cap? Are the diminished returns for Defense, and each effected avoidance stat calculated separately, and then the final number we see on the tooltip is the sum of the parts?

Well here's the thing to remember. Ratings are not *technically* affected by diminishing returns, but the avoidance percentages they convert to are, though. Dodge, defense, and agility all add dodge %, so adding those will affect the DR of dodge % no matter which one you stack. For parry, parry rating and defense both add parry %, so adding those will affect the DR of parry % no matter which you stack.

So what you do when calculating your dodge is:

character_sheet_dodge = naked_undiminished_dodge + DR(dodge_rating_dodge + agility_dodge + defense_dodge).

Parry has a similar equation.

Miss is also affected by diminishing returns, very harshly infact as it caps at 16%. Only defense adds miss though (there is no "miss rating).

Block % is not under diminishing returns, so neither the block from defense nor the block from block rating are affected by any sort of DR.

So as you add defense, it adds dodge and parry, affecting the DR of both.

[Manito]

I read all of Theck's research, and I do remember him coming to the same conclusion, primarily because his original model did not take into effect the stairstepping nature of defense rating The 2.4:1.8:1 no longer applies - now, you try and hit certain defensive breakpoints where the "least" defense points are wasted, and then optimize your dodge to parry around 1.875:1. This model works optimally for warriors and paladins - for DK's, dodge stacking is your only real avoidance concern, since our parry is overinflated by Forceful Deflection.

[Warloco]

The way to stack dodge vs parry is not looking at dodge rating vs parry rating, you should look at it from "DR'able dodge vs DR'able parry", ie; for warriors the dodge you should compare is dodge from defense agility and dodge vs the parry from defense and parry. Not just from dodge from rating vs parry from rating.

[jere]

The way to stack dodge vs parry is not looking at dodge rating vs parry rating, you should look at it from "DR'able dodge vs DR'able parry", ie; for warriors the dodge you should compare is dodge from defense agility and dodge vs the parry from defense and parry. Not just from dodge from rating vs parry from rating.

The 1.875 ratio about all DR'able dodge and DR'able parry, not just ratings. That's why we are listing them as percents rather than simply just ratings.

[Warloco]

That is exactly what I am saying Jere, the reason I brought it up is because it seemed to be overlooked in parts of this thread.

[Norik]

Ok,
Im trying to follow along with this post as best as possible and bring things to my level of understanding.(Laymens terms that is)
I sort have latched onto this bit of info:

• At low gear levels ( defense rating + dodge rating + parry rating < 1150 or so), just ignore defense and stack dodge and parry rating in a 1.88:1 ratio.
• At higher gear levels (defense + dodge + parry > 1150 rating), gear so that your post-DR dodge and parry percentages come out as close to a 1.88:1 ratio as possible.
  This is also equivalent to the algorithm I posted earlier for ratings:
  Theck wrote:

  1. Take current ratings and subtract out 689 def, 96 dodge, and 64 parry
  2. Figure out your current ratio of dodge:def: parry
  3. if one of these is higher than the ideal ratio of 2.4:1.8:1, swap out some of the rating that's above the target ratio for a rating that's below or at the target value.
  4. Recalculate and lather, rinse, repeat.

  
  
  
  Note that this method may result in some "wasted" defense rating, but will also ensure that you're within about 0.075% avoidance of the best possible value you can have without forcing you to worry about exactly how much defense rating you have.

So using the above with the following numbers:
Defense: 754
Dodge: 639
Parry: 177
=1570
Should I now try to balance out my dodge/parry ratio or should I shoot for one of the better defense numbers (787) to avoid the loss according to this info:
548 Skill - 728 Rating - 1.26% Waste
549 Skill - 733 Rating - 2.92% waste
550 Skill - 738 Rating - 4.58% waste
551 Skill - 743 Rating - 6.23% waste
552 Skill - 748 Rating - 7.89% waste
553 Skill - 753 Rating - 9.55% waste
554 Skill - 758 Rating - 11.20% waste
555 Skill - 763 Rating - 12.86% waste
556 Skill - 768 Rating - 14.52% waste
557 Skill - 773 Rating - 16.17% waste
558 Skill - 778 Rating - 17.83% waste
559 Skill - 783 Rating - 19.49% waste
560 Skill - 787 Rating - 0.81% waste

Or have I just completely lost the intent of the thread ?
Mind you Im not shooting for perfect here, just trying to get into the ballpark of where I should be.

[jere]

Don't worry about looking at defense. Just take your character sheet dodge and parry percentages and do this:

(charactersheet_dodge - 10%)/(charactersheet_parry - 10%) = r

take a look at your value for r. If it is above 1.875, parry % gives more avoidance after DR per point. If you are below 1.875, dodge % gives more avoidance after DR per point. If r=1.875, then both are equally as good. The closer you are to 1.875, the more efficient you are in avoidance (I.E. you are getting the most avoidance per point after DR takes over.).

Don't go changing your gear around like crazy to get this value either. Sometimes less efficient pieces still give more avoidance purely because they have a lot more avoidance than another piece. However, if you come to a choice where everything else is about the same except one piece has dodge and one piece has about the same amount of parry, you know which to pick. Or if you need to regem a piece, you know which of the two gems to pick.

Don't worry about defense skill, dodge rating, or parry rating...just look at the overall dodge and parry percentages. Doing that will take care of the defense part intrinsically.

[Manito]

Don't worry about looking at defense. Just take your character sheet dodge and parry percentages and do this:

(charactersheet_dodge - 10%)/(charactersheet_parry - 10%) = r

take a look at your value for r. If it is above 1.875, parry % gives more avoidance after DR per point. If you are below 1.875, dodge % gives more avoidance after DR per point. If r=1.875, then both are equally as good. The closer you are to 1.875, the more efficient you are in avoidance (I.E. you are getting the most avoidance per point after DR takes over.).

Don't go changing your gear around like crazy to get this value either. Sometimes less efficient pieces still give more avoidance purely because they have a lot more avoidance than another piece. However, if you come to a choice where everything else is about the same except one piece has dodge and one piece has about the same amount of parry, you know which to pick. Or if you need to regem a piece, you know which of the two gems to pick.

Don't worry about defense skill, dodge rating, or parry rating...just look at the overall dodge and parry percentages. Doing that will take care of the defense part intrinsically.

And remember that the -10% isn't firm - it depends on race/class to some degree (for example, DK's have lower base parry, so you don't subtract 10%, you only subtract 6% or so, depending on base race strength).

[Norik]

Thank you guys.

[Satorri]

And remember that the -10% isn't firm - it depends on race/class to some degree (for example, DK's have lower base parry, so you don't subtract 10%, you only subtract 6% or so, depending on base race strength).

The parry from strength on DK's, base or otherwise, is not outside of diminishing returns. It goes into parry rating directly, it doesn't get the same benefit as base agility.

Just nitpicking, don't mind me. =)

[Manito]

The parry from strength on DK's, base or otherwise, is not outside of diminishing returns. It goes into parry rating directly, it doesn't get the same benefit as base agility.

Just nitpicking, don't mind me. =)

I think the parry rating I get from my base strength as an orc DK is 41 rating, if I remember right, with no other gear on.

So our base parry % is about 4.94% if you want to nitpick :P sorry, forgot to subtract that. :P

[Dragaan]

Don't worry about looking at defense. Just take your character sheet dodge and parry percentages and do this:

(charactersheet_dodge - 10%)/(charactersheet_parry - 10%) = r

take a look at your value for r. If it is above 1.875, parry % gives more avoidance after DR per point. If you are below 1.875, dodge % gives more avoidance after DR per point. If r=1.875, then both are equally as good. The closer you are to 1.875, the more efficient you are in avoidance (I.E. you are getting the most avoidance per point after DR takes over.).

What about the dodge gained from agility?

[theckhd]

What about the dodge gained from agility?

That's automatically included in your character sheet dodge%. So ideally, you want to calculate the ratio based on your fully raid buffed dodge and parry percentages.

If you're doing it without Kings, MotW, Libram procs, etc. then you'll need to adjust. I did some math in this thread to calculate the effect of those things (raid buffs end up giving around 2.5-3% dodge, and the Libram proc is another 2.5-3% dodge). Those vary somewhat with your gear specifics, hence the range.

[Dragaan]

I thought u'd subtract the amt gained from agility in addition to 10% when using that formula. Got a lil confused.

[jere]

The only amounts that get subtracted out are the parts not affected by DR. That amounts to almost 10% for dodge and exactly 10% for parry.